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 Post subject: How Can This Be?
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Hi,

I've been reading and and studying the UB for decades. I've read the whole book twice and I re-read and study it continuously. To me the UB is a blessing, but also an enigma, because there is much in the book that's not easy to understand.

Here's what is I am pondering now: How in the the world can a person who reads, studies and accepts the UB be a supporter of our current president? It seems absolutely inconceivable to me that anyone with the slightest ethical sensitivity and ability to judge character could support a man who is so clearly a pathological liar, a misogynist, a racist, a sower of chaos, a psychopathic buffoon, a master of scapegoating and a person with a 4th grade speaking level and who's also an emotionally abusive sadistic creep who blames everyone else for his own stupidity and incompetence. The Republican party, under this devil, looks to me like a death cult rather than a legitimate political party.

The UB is about soul-building, about character development. And the last papers in the book deal clearly with the dangers of nationalism, even likening it to a virus. Trump's "America First" is American Exceptionalism on steroids (the usual "chosen people" concept) and is greatly increasing the chances of nuclear war. The dismantling of every environmental protection that so many fought so hard for over the past forty years and the abandonment of treaties that help reduce the chance of war is alarming. No healthy society would even dare allow a person of this low level of intellectual and moral development get near any kind of governmental responsibility.

My feeling is if a UB reader supports this dangerous, destructive human being, he or she clearly does not understand the UB.

I am familiar with Ken Wilbur's writings on how a person of high spiritual development and who is very close to their own indwelling spirit is also a product of their own culture's prejudices, delusions, limitations and ignorance. And I know the UB says that the further religion stays clear of secular institutions the better. I get that. Yet the extreme pathological narcissism, paranoia, petty vindictiveness, and contempt for science, expertise, evidence and fact that Trump habitually displays is deeply alarming to me, and it scares me that people are blind to what a con-man and charlatan Trump is.

Any thoughts?

Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com


Last edited by jsg on Sat May 23, 2020 9:44 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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I agree with you, jsg. I, too, am at a loss for how anyone who reads and really studies and contemplates the UB could support the current US President. His contempt and willful ignorance toward science, alone, even aside from all the other compelling reasons you listed, should be repugnant to anyone who believes the UB. And yes, his lack of empathy and compassion; his inability to see beyond the tip of his own nose.

Quote:
The political or administrative form of a government is of little consequence provided it affords the essentials of civil progress—liberty, security, education, and social co-ordination. It is not what a state is but what it does that determines the course of social evolution. And after all, no state can transcend the moral values of its citizenry as exemplified in their chosen leaders. Ignorance and selfishness will insure the downfall of even the highest type of government. ~ The Urantia Book, 71:3.1


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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It isn't about Trump.

It's about the people who understand, that unless they're stopped, another group of people will soon overthrow representative democratic government (led by Bolshevik style criminals masquerading as politicians) and replace it with tyrannical secular totalitarianism.


Quote:
195:8.4
Secularism did break the bonds of church control, and now in turn it threatens to establish a new and godless type of mastery over the hearts and minds of modern man. The tyrannical and dictatorial political state is the direct offspring of scientific materialism and philosophic secularism. Secularism no sooner frees man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
It isn't about Trump.

It's about the people who understand, that unless they're stopped, another group of people will soon overthrow representative democratic government (led by Bolshevik style criminals masquerading as politicians) and replace it with tyrannical secular totalitarianism.

Quote:
195:8.4
Secularism did break the bonds of church control, and now in turn it threatens to establish a new and godless type of mastery over the hearts and minds of modern man. The tyrannical and dictatorial political state is the direct offspring of scientific materialism and philosophic secularism. Secularism no sooner frees man from the domination of the institutionalized church than it sells him into slavish bondage to the totalitarian state.


But who are these "Bolshevik style criminals" masquerading as politicians? Most of the world and most people with some education in the US would say the criminals posing as politicians are the Republican Senators who are sycophants of Trump. Certainly the Democrats are hardly much better, they've sold their souls to Wall Street a long time ago as did the Republicans. I suppose the lesser of two evils is, once again, what we're dealing with, but in this case one of the evils is led by a complete psychopath. One UB reader I know who is a Trump supporter likes to joke about Trump's personality and laughs it off. That's very unwise and very dangerous. There's nothing funny about any form of tyranny, whether it be secular, religious, corporate, or militaristic.

Trump himself displays all the qualities of Godlessness, so if his supporters fear secular totalitarianism are they OK with corporate totalitarianism as the Republican party continues to create the largest gap between the wealthy few and the majority of citizens? Are they OK with a religious totalitarianism that includes superstition, an infantile belief in a God who rewards and punishes by causing floods, earthquakes and pandemics?

Of all people, UB readers have a unique opportunity to upgrade their understanding of what constitutes real religion and what attributes are required of us as 21st century planetary citizens. The UB clearly points out not only the dangers of secularism, but also the benefits, such as equal rights for minorities and women, a higher level of education and increased scientific awareness. One does not need to have regressive politics in order to have a fully functioning spiritual life and outlook, it is possible to keep the benefits of secularism and avoid the dangers by replacing it with a more advanced religious philosophy rather than trying to adopt an earlier religion that is unable to function in a world that is more interconnected and interdependent than ever.

I am no admirer of any politicians, our two-party system is as unable to help the US evolve successfully as a nation into the 21st century just as nationalism is unable to maintain peace in the world, the UB is clear about that. There's something missing here, something amiss if people who fear secular totalitarianism support the values that Trump represents. They are selling themselves into something far worse than the pitfalls of secularism. Trump is pushing hypernationalism, the very thing the UB warns us about:

195:8.10 (2082.2) ...The chief cohesive force resisting this disintegration of antagonism is nationalism. And nationalism is the chief barrier to world peace.


Last edited by jsg on Fri May 22, 2020 4:25 pm +0000, edited 8 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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jsg wrote:
There's something missing here, something amiss if people who fear secular totalitarianism support the values that Trump represents.


What's missing here, is understanding.

Understanding that by supporting the establishment of the tyrannical totalitarian state, it will destroy the lives of the poorest among us, besides others, and provide the masquerading criminals pretending to be leaders to have their trillion dollar grab bags to enrich themselves while their corrupt media floods the airwaves falsely, that it's for their own good.


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe.
These institutions make money on bad news.
If it is not bad news it doesn't become news.


Jesus said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?”


The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with all things worldly. The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with what an individual believes or does not believe politically and in fact this brotherhood allows for an unfathomable diversity of opinion. What unites the brotherhood is the experience of spiritual kinship..... that's all !

Come one come all-- Trump supporters welcome!!

Paul


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jsg


I respect your opinion.
There are many people who believe politically like you believe.

However, not all UB readers hold the same opinion politically, nor do they all believe the same way you believe about our current President.

Every President since I have been alive has been horribly criticized by the media, some more than others and so I stopped years ago listening to the negativity.
It has become so bad that people actually learn to HATE through the media influence.

It is my opinion that this new found hatred, based on media bias, is UNGODLY and IRRELIGIOUS and quite frankly, detrimental to our nation, to the UNITY of the people of our nation. I don't agree with it because it reeks of propaganda.

In the spiritual realm Unity is the hallmark of Divinity. There is the most amazing information in the Foreword of the UB on this thing called Unity. Because of the information in the Foreword I am convinced that Unity is a quality that the brotherhood of believers should strive for. Since there will always be such diversity of opinion and belief among UB readers, we as brothers and sisters of this gospel cannot allow these difference to separate us, to divide us.

Sincerely,
Paul


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Quote:
141:5.1

Spiritual Unity

One of the most eventful of all the evening conferences at Amathus was the session having to do with the discussion of spiritual unity. James Zebedee had asked, “Master, how shall we learn to see alike and thereby enjoy more harmony among ourselves?” When Jesus heard this question, he was stirred within his spirit, so much so that he replied: “James, James, when did I teach you that you should all see alike? I have come into the world to proclaim spiritual liberty to the end that mortals may be empowered to live individual lives of originality and freedom before God. I do not desire that social harmony and fraternal peace shall be purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. What I require of you, my apostles, is spirit unity—and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven. You do not have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike. Spiritual unity is derived from the consciousness that each of you is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of the heavenly Father.


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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jsg wrote:
Hi,

I've been reading and and studying the UB for decades. I've read the whole book twice and I re-read and study it continuously. To me the UB is a blessing, but also an enigma, because there is much in the book that's not easy to understand.

Here's what is I am pondering now: How in the the world can a person who reads, studies and accepts the UB be a Donald Trump supporter? It seems absolutely inconceivable to me that anyone with the slightest ethical sensitivity and ability to judge character could support a man who is so clearly a pathological liar, a misogynist, a racist, a sower of chaos, a psychopathic buffoon, a master of scapegoating and a person with a 4th grade speaking level and who's also an emotionally abusive sadistic creep who blames everyone else for his own stupidity and incompetence. The Republican party, under this devil, looks to me like a death cult rather than a legitimate political party.

The UB is about soul-building, about character development. And the last papers in the book deal clearly with the dangers of nationalism, even likening it to a virus. Trump's "America First" is American Exceptionalism on steroids (the usual "chosen people" concept) and is greatly increasing the chances of nuclear war. The dismantling of every environmental protection that so many fought so hard for over the past forty years and the abandonment of treaties that help reduce the chance of war is alarming. No healthy society would even dare allow a person of this low level of intellectual and moral development get near any kind of governmental responsibility.

My feeling is if a UB reader supports this dangerous, destructive human being, he or she clearly does not understand the UB.

I am familiar with Ken Wilbur's writings on how a person of high spiritual development and who is very close to their own indwelling spirit is also a product of their own culture's prejudices, delusions, limitations and ignorance. And I know the UB says that the further religion stays clear of secular institutions the better. I get that. Yet the extreme pathological narcissism, paranoia, petty vindictiveness, and contempt for science, expertise, evidence and fact that Trump habitually displays is deeply alarming to me, and it scares me that people are blind to what a con-man and charlatan Trump is.

Any thoughts?

Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com



but ub also has some statements that can be considered racist


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zack wrote:
but ub also has some statements that can be considered racist


There are tens of thousands of statements in the UB. The beauty about each and every one of them is that more than likely, you'll consider them accordingly, depending on what interests you the most.


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zack wrote:
jsg wrote:
Hi,

I've been reading and and studying the UB for decades. I've read the whole book twice and I re-read and study it continuously. To me the UB is a blessing, but also an enigma, because there is much in the book that's not easy to understand.

Here's what is I am pondering now: How in the the world can a person who reads, studies and accepts the UB be a Donald Trump supporter? It seems absolutely inconceivable to me that anyone with the slightest ethical sensitivity and ability to judge character could support a man who is so clearly a pathological liar, a misogynist, a racist, a sower of chaos, a psychopathic buffoon, a master of scapegoating and a person with a 4th grade speaking level and who's also an emotionally abusive sadistic creep who blames everyone else for his own stupidity and incompetence. The Republican party, under this devil, looks to me like a death cult rather than a legitimate political party.

The UB is about soul-building, about character development. And the last papers in the book deal clearly with the dangers of nationalism, even likening it to a virus. Trump's "America First" is American Exceptionalism on steroids (the usual "chosen people" concept) and is greatly increasing the chances of nuclear war. The dismantling of every environmental protection that so many fought so hard for over the past forty years and the abandonment of treaties that help reduce the chance of war is alarming. No healthy society would even dare allow a person of this low level of intellectual and moral development get near any kind of governmental responsibility.

My feeling is if a UB reader supports this dangerous, destructive human being, he or she clearly does not understand the UB.

I am familiar with Ken Wilbur's writings on how a person of high spiritual development and who is very close to their own indwelling spirit is also a product of their own culture's prejudices, delusions, limitations and ignorance. And I know the UB says that the further religion stays clear of secular institutions the better. I get that. Yet the extreme pathological narcissism, paranoia, petty vindictiveness, and contempt for science, expertise, evidence and fact that Trump habitually displays is deeply alarming to me, and it scares me that people are blind to what a con-man and charlatan Trump is.

Any thoughts?

Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com



but ub also has some statements that can be considered racist


"Considered" by whom? That matters a lot. Do you think so? Or just spreading rumors and false claims?

Please...post such text...please.

Bradly. 8)


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xobeht wrote:
I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe.
These institutions make money on bad news.
If it is not bad news it doesn't become news.


Jesus said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?”


The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with all things worldly. The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with what an individual believes or does not believe politically and in fact this brotherhood allows for an unfathomable diversity of opinion. What unites the brotherhood is the experience of spiritual kinship..... that's all !

Come one come all-- Trump supporters welcome!!

Paul


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xobeht wrote:
I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe.
These institutions make money on bad news.
If it is not bad news it doesn't become news.


Jesus said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?”


The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with all things worldly. The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with what an individual believes or does not believe politically and in fact this brotherhood allows for an unfathomable diversity of opinion. What unites the brotherhood is the experience of spiritual kinship..... that's all !

Come one come all-- Trump supporters welcome!!

Paul


Not all "media" is the same. there are journalists who care about justice and fairness and who report factually and honestly.


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xobeht wrote:
jsg


I respect your opinion.
There are many people who believe politically like you believe.

However, not all UB readers hold the same opinion politically, nor do they all believe the same way you believe about our current President.

Every President since I have been alive has been horribly criticized by the media, some more than others and so I stopped years ago listening to the negativity.
It has become so bad that people actually learn to HATE through the media influence.

It is my opinion that this new found hatred, based on media bias, is UNGODLY and IRRELIGIOUS and quite frankly, detrimental to our nation, to the UNITY of the people of our nation. I don't agree with it because it reeks of propaganda.

In the spiritual realm Unity is the hallmark of Divinity. There is the most amazing information in the Foreword of the UB on this thing called Unity. Because of the information in the Foreword I am convinced that Unity is a quality that the brotherhood of believers should strive for. Since there will always be such diversity of opinion and belief among UB readers, we as brothers and sisters of this gospel cannot allow these difference to separate us, to divide us.

Sincerely,
Paul



But we are not only in the realm of spiritual unity. We are also on earth, in the here and now:

71:4.16 (804.16) The appearance of genuine brotherhood signifies that a social order has arrived in which all men delight in bearing one another’s burdens; they actually desire to practice the golden rule. But such an ideal society cannot be realized when either the weak or the wicked lie in wait to take unfair and unholy advantage of those who are chiefly actuated by devotion to the service of truth, beauty, and goodness. In such a situation only one course is practical: The “golden rulers” may establish a progressive society in which they live according to their ideals while maintaining an adequate defense against their benighted fellows who might seek either to exploit their pacific predilections or to destroy their advancing civilization.

71:4.17 (804.17) Idealism can never survive on an evolving planet if the idealists in each generation permit themselves to be exterminated by the baser orders of humanity. And here is the great test of idealism: Can an advanced society maintain that military preparedness which renders it secure from all attack by its war-loving neighbors without yielding to the temptation to employ this military strength in offensive operations against other peoples for purposes of selfish gain or national aggrandizement? National survival demands preparedness, and religious idealism alone can prevent the prostitution of preparedness into aggression. Only love, brotherhood, can prevent the strong from oppressing the weak.
*******************************************************************************************************************
Once again, there are journalists of good will and who have effective bullshit detectors. Media bias? What does that mean? What do you think the role of media should be in a democracy? Not speak truth to power? Our current president IS dividing us, he IS sowing chaos by calling Mexican people rapists and calling white supremacists "fine people" and by attempting to label any news that doesn't glorify him "fake news". He is an ungodly character by any standards, even politicians, and he is dangerous. It is not spiritual to call good evil and evil good; sentimentality and violence go hand in hand. Do you deny that our current president has inspired his followers at his rallies to commit acts of violence? i have seen and heard it with my own eyes. The nation really is divided. It's odd, to my mind, how some religious people do not see that our current president's god is money and that he's a secular materialist--every action he takes, every bill he signs and every policy he puts forth is designed to make the rich richer and everyone else poorer. Nothing spiritual or Jesusonian about that.

The watchword of the Urantia Book is PROGRESS. Is dismantling every environmental law progress? is tearing up treaties that have at least reduced some international tensions progress? Is threatening to use nuclear weapons on another nation progress? Is building walls progress? I prefer bridges.

Mental health professionals and experts in the fields of psychology and mental pathology have been warning us for several years about the mental and emotional sicknesses expressed in our current president's personality. Are they all merely haters? is everyone who is highly concerned that we have a lunatic for a president really just being haters? It's so easy--just call someone a hater because they have the ability to see a very sick character in a very high office of great responsibility. It's also hard to reason with someone who didn't use reason to come to their opinion in the first place.

As our current president himself said "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters". He is smart enough to know that once people get bamboozled by a master con-man it's humiliating and shame-producing to admit you've been conned...


Last edited by jsg on Sat May 23, 2020 9:46 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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Perhaps the reality and results and flouting of such false liberty might result in a more suitable response which inches us forward collectively through the shared consequences of suffering those inevitable outcomes?

Social evolutionary progress is often slow, painful, ugly, and even unrecognizable to those who focus so intently on the evil that all the truth, beauty, and goodness in the lense of perspective and motion of time gets obscured and lost to view.

Only the consequences of suffering evil enables and empowers some people to turn away from the causes of such suffering, we are taught, to make wiser choices. Ethics and morality are lacking at many levels of politics and commerce today and such examples are not unusual or hard to find in the USA or elsewhere today or our past. No single politician created this circus and farce...and it belittles the reality of cause and effect to focus so intently upon a temporary symptom while ignoring its cause I think.

It is inaccurate and pointless to blame one person or party for false liberty and the buffoonery of greed and self importance. Will those evils perish without our current platoon of clowns? Nope.

The personalized attacks here violate the Guidelines and do not serve the discussion we might have on the reality of progress and evolutionary process we might consider. It is not what happens that matters so much as our response to what happens that matters in the realization of potential and progress.


132:2.6 (1458.3) As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.

132:2.7 (1458.4) Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart—the shadows of potential evil.

In 153:1.3 we are told: "...Jesus fully understood how men prepare themselves for the decisions of a crisis and the performance of sudden deeds of courageous choosing by the slow process of the reiterated choosing between the recurring situations of good and evil. He subjected his chosen messengers to repeated rehearsals in disappointment and provided them with frequent and testing opportunities for choosing between the right and the wrong way of meeting spiritual trials...."

Me here: Should we expect better social outcomes before we realize a more spiritualized society? Our disappointments are our personal opportunities for progress and growth in the Spirit. Then will we make better choices personally AND collectively.

Sometimes only fire will purge the forests and prairies of the obstacles to new growth. Anyone else smelling smoke? Do any UB readers here doubt the inevitability of Light and Life and the million years of social progress already achieved on Urantia? Do any students of the Revelation doubt the importance and value of meanings to be discovered by the exposure of evil by its demonstration?

What is the best or better response? How will wisdom be expressed?

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat May 23, 2020 7:42 am +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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