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SEla_Kelly wrote:
And how do we reconcile the realm of human morality, the mind arena of human choosing, with the energetic actuality of the grand universe? How do we manage the moral realm, in lieu of the fact or theory, the principle that Jesus taught: that a person's faith can heal them, can restore wholeness?


Are you concerned about the fact that inherited urges cannot be modified or healed? Jesus explained the way we overcome our evil urges and that's by falling in love with higher ideals. When we do that we're really falling in love with our Thought Adjusters who are our real selves. Truth, beauty and goodness are always triumphant over evil and ugliness. The same thing happens with conflict, even conflict between two personalities. The personality of higher spiritual status always triumphs over the lesser. Our souls are our new transformed characters, so identifying with the Thought Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth in the soul can truly heal.

(1738.4) 156:5.5 "But let me warn you against the folly of undertaking to surmount temptation by the effort of supplanting one desire by another and supposedly superior desire through the mere force of the human will. If you would be truly triumphant over the temptations of the lesser and lower nature, you must come to that place of spiritual advantage where you have really and truly developed an actual interest in, and love for, those higher and more idealistic forms of conduct which your mind is desirous of substituting for these lower and less idealistic habits of behavior that you recognize as temptation. You will in this way be delivered through spiritual transformation rather than be increasingly overburdened with the deceptive suppression of mortal desires. The old and the inferior will be forgotten in the love for the new and the superior. Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth. There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good."

(1212.5) 110:7.4 Subsequent to mortal fusion the Adjusters share your destiny and experience; they are you.

(37.3) 2:3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature. Undiluted evil, complete error, willful sin, and unmitigated iniquity are inherently and automatically suicidal. Such attitudes of cosmic unreality can survive in the universe only because of transient mercy-tolerance pending the action of the justice-determining and fairness-finding mechanisms of the universe tribunals of righteous adjudication.

(1217.6) 111:2.2 The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings — a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
That's right Abel was a true Adamite. We can say that he did not live long enough to display the full fruition of the human spirit, but we know that even his dogs obeyed him, after his demise as in "his dogs brought his flock home." That Central Universe patterns from which Adam & Eve the Material Sons were drawn, sounds awfully intrinsic: "a gift of grace." to all living forms on a materially progressing world. The plasm has "inherent immunity to the disease forms existing parasitically as retrograde evolutionary beings." That means that evil become a potential in the set of human actions, manifestable let me say even through DNA perhaps. I must find what is workable within me, what may be useful, and trust that the human Adjuster selects the proper set of emotions to manifest, to prepare man for the life that is to come. I can't tell you if the Adjuster relies on a smaller % of my potential than others, but I think that within the realm of human consciousness, a person who is relaxed or peaceful enough to allow the manifestation of actual graciousness, would only need to rely on the small % of DNA that is differential, nonregulatory. I feel that the retrogression of morality within the human mind may contact evil within ourselves, contact with a myriad of organism that coexist within the human environment, and such proclivity causes a loss of energy: a lack of cohesiveness within the mind of the human individual. So if you compare the inherent immunities, Adam compared to Andon, there is obviously so much that, perchance, Andons would have to avoid: following the moral dictate rather than temptation. Exposure creates risk, and so what (examples) children are learn from, even in terms of symbolic expression, have to be eventually reconciled with that energetic actuality within the life of the supreme being, the life of every atom.


Pure gibberish.....and another hijacked topic from a new reader and guest. Mods???!!! Please delete ALL of Stephen's posts here. Not relevant and irrational.

:-#


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Sep 13, 2019 4:50 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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katroofjebus wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
And how do we reconcile the realm of human morality, the mind arena of human choosing, with the energetic actuality of the grand universe? How do we manage the moral realm, in lieu of the fact or theory, the principle that Jesus taught: that a person's faith can heal them, can restore wholeness?


Are you concerned about the fact that inherited urges cannot be modified or healed? Jesus explained the way we overcome our evil urges and that's by falling in love with higher ideals. When we do that we're really falling in love with our Thought Adjusters who are our real selves. Truth, beauty and goodness are always triumphant over evil and ugliness. The same thing happens with conflict, even conflict between two personalities. The personality of higher spiritual status always triumphs over the lesser. Our souls are our new transformed characters, so identifying with the Thought Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth in the soul can truly heal.

(1738.4) 156:5.5 "But let me warn you against the folly of undertaking to surmount temptation by the effort of supplanting one desire by another and supposedly superior desire through the mere force of the human will. If you would be truly triumphant over the temptations of the lesser and lower nature, you must come to that place of spiritual advantage where you have really and truly developed an actual interest in, and love for, those higher and more idealistic forms of conduct which your mind is desirous of substituting for these lower and less idealistic habits of behavior that you recognize as temptation. You will in this way be delivered through spiritual transformation rather than be increasingly overburdened with the deceptive suppression of mortal desires. The old and the inferior will be forgotten in the love for the new and the superior. Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth. There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good."

(1212.5) 110:7.4 Subsequent to mortal fusion the Adjusters share your destiny and experience; they are you.

(37.3) 2:3.5 In any universe contest between actual levels of reality, the personality of the higher level will ultimately triumph over the personality of the lower level. This inevitable outcome of universe controversy is inherent in the fact that divinity of quality equals the degree of reality or actuality of any will creature. Undiluted evil, complete error, willful sin, and unmitigated iniquity are inherently and automatically suicidal. Such attitudes of cosmic unreality can survive in the universe only because of transient mercy-tolerance pending the action of the justice-determining and fairness-finding mechanisms of the universe tribunals of righteous adjudication.

(1217.6) 111:2.2 The material mind of mortal man is the cosmic loom that carries the morontia fabrics on which the indwelling Thought Adjuster threads the spirit patterns of a universe character of enduring values and divine meanings — a surviving soul of ultimate destiny and unending career, a potential finaliter.


And here...pandering to gibberish...and an accomplice to a hijacking!!


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What happened to William's question??

Paul


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xobeht wrote:
What happened to William's question??

Paul


Hijacked!!

Here's the conversation so far without the Hijacker's interventions and misdirections:

Opening post by William:

"I am now one third of the way through reading the Urantia Book that is the Forward, Part 1 and Part 2. This is my first read so I want to make this thread to reflect a little.

So what are my impressions so far? Well, I can say that I am very impressed at how well structured the book is. It has so much material in it that I cannot have one uniform feeling over if that makes sense. Mostly I am impressed at the philosophy part as it prompted me to ponder deep life and existential questions. My favorite quote is in Paper 28 which I have referenced in other threads.

There were things which I found very difficult to comprehend that were frequently referred to like God the Supreme and the Unqualified Absolute.

I found the description of Paradise, Havona, the architectural spheres and the celestials fascinating yet unbelievable upon first reading. Every time there was yet another order of celestials and another group of architectural spheres, I found it quite tedious but paradoxically, when I'm not given a lot of detail or no detail at all for unrevealed orders or spheres with little information like the seven luminous worlds of the Eternal Son, I long for more information!

I am not well versed in a lot of science, so I am unqualified to comment on much of it in the book. I will say I was slightly disturbed when reading in paper 52 about there being little value in investing time and love to the genetically degenerate. I felt that was an insult to my autistic nephew.

Overall, the book is an emotional roller-coaster with parts I found I could agree with and others I could not. Is this book an actual revelation? I would say parts of it. I was not impressed at the lack of transparency in the Book and in the UB Foundation website at their omission of the sleeping subject narrative.

Has the book changed my life yet? Not quite. I've begun asking myself many existential questions recently and my family is very aware that the book is becoming a large part of my life recently. The book has really grown on me but I'm not quite ready to say that it has transformed me.

Anyway, I still have part 3 and part 4 to read and look forward to more reflections in the future. Maybe by the time I reach part 4, I'll want to make life adjustments as that is the part with the teachings of Jesus. We'll see."


First reply by Bradly:

Thanks William for sharing your progress, your reflections, and your concerns related to reading the first 2 parts of the UB!! Quite an achievement actually.

I think all of us, at least me, were likewise daunted and challenged by the new terms and concepts and depth of detail and breadth of scope related to Havona and all the beings introduced from Paradise to the Super Universes to the Local Universes. And, we are told, there are even more that are not yet revealed to us. The UB is really a simplified and condensed primer on universe reality. I can only imagine the vast libraries required to hold the entirety of the written records of history and fact. Both written records and living records we are told!

God the Supreme and God the Ultimate are entirely new concepts to humanity. Wonderfully logical and so reasonable to help understand evolutionary, experiential wisdom gained by all creatures in time and space by the realization of potential and the creation of new potential by its realization! Wondrous. Makes perfect sense. Really solidified the truthfulness and uniqueness of the Teachings to me. Part III will bring you far more information on these evolutionary and experiential forms of Deity and help you place them in total context with the First Source and Center and the Absoluteness of Paradise Deities.

You will also learn far more about the architectural spheres like the Mansion Worlds and the capitals of Systems, Constellations, Local and Super Universes!! I found the complexity of the material universe to be quite comforting and believable as it is so obvious by simply looking at the night sky how much more complex is reality and how much grander is reality than I was taught in school or in church. I finally began to appreciate the unimaginable lack of limits in eternity and infinity for the very first time in my life.

I'd like to know the exact quotes from Paper 52 - Planetary Mortal Epochs - which disturb you. Nowhere in the UB is anything recommended other than total and absolute love and kindness and mercy and service to all humans, especially those who suffer any form of sickness, injury, malady, or birth defects and challenges. I fear you have misunderstood some passage if you believe you've discovered anything dismissive or callous about any health condition suffered by anyone....ever. But the Papers are clear that all suffering by and from genetic traits are lovingly eliminated over great time frames by wise and loving applications of amalgamation, violet blood infusion, science, and selective breeding patterns by only the most sane, kind, practical, and intelligent applications of that which delivers the greatest good for the greatest number. Nowhere is cruelty or death or elimination or isolation recommended except for the most violent of criminals...and even they are not subject to cruelty or unfairness. Fairness and kindness are the watchwords of the universe of universes!! I wonder what makes you suspect anything else?

Any way...thanks again for sharing and well done. Best wishes in further reading!!

Bradly

Then Bonita:

William S. wrote:
I will say I was slightly disturbed when reading in paper 52 about there being little value in investing time and love to the genetically degenerate. I felt that was an insult to my autistic nephew.


"The use of the word "degenerate" is in reference to morality. Autism is not immoral and geneticists have yet to discover an autism gene. There are genes and gene mutations associated with autism but none that are consistently predictable in causing autism. Therefore, it would seem unlikely that the Revelation is recommending elimination of autistic individuals.

But more importantly, I don't think you can reproduce any evidence at all that the Revelation recommends that we stop loving and caring for these affected individuals."


William replies:

"I cannot nail it down to just a few quotes, but please turn to paper 52 part 2: Post-Planetary Prince Man. The last four paragraphs bothered me a little."



fanofVan wrote:
William S. wrote:
I cannot nail it down to just a few quotes, but please turn to paper 52 part 2: Post-Planetary Prince Man. The last four paragraphs bothered me a little.


Well....let's talk about it and consider the text itself. First, I applaud and agree with Kat/Bonita's post above: "The use of the word "degenerate" is in reference to morality. Autism is not immoral and geneticists have yet to discover an autism gene. There are genes and gene mutations associated with autism but none that are consistently predictable in causing autism. Therefore, it would seem unlikely that the Revelation is recommending elimination of autistic individuals.

But more importantly, I don't think you can reproduce any evidence at all that the Revelation recommends that we stop loving and caring for these affected individuals."


So let's view the quotes with that in mind - medical maladies are not considered "degenerate" which is a moral term which describes, I think, sociopaths and psychopaths without any conscience, empathy, altruism, regret, or remorse. A very specific percent of the general population that cannot hear or is unresponsive to the Spirit within. All other beings have eternal potential.

52:2.9 (592.2) The races are purified and brought up to a high state of physical perfection and intellectual strength before the end of this era. The early development of a normal world is greatly helped by the plan of promoting the increase of the higher types of mortals with proportionate curtailment of the lower. And it is the failure of your early peoples to thus discriminate between these types that accounts for the presence of so many defective and degenerate individuals among the present-day Urantia races.

52:2.10 (592.3) One of the great achievements of the age of the prince is this restriction of the multiplication of mentally defective and socially unfit individuals. Long before the times of the arrival of the second Sons, the Adams, most worlds seriously address themselves to the tasks of race purification, something which the Urantia peoples have not even yet seriously undertaken.

52:2.11 (592.4) This problem of race improvement is not such an extensive undertaking when it is attacked at this early date in human evolution. The preceding period of tribal struggles and rugged competition in race survival has weeded out most of the abnormal and defective strains. An idiot does not have much chance of survival in a primitive and warring tribal social organization. It is the false sentiment of your partially perfected civilizations that fosters, protects, and perpetuates the hopelessly defective strains of evolutionary human stocks.

52:2.12 (592.5) It is neither tenderness nor altruism to bestow futile sympathy upon degenerated human beings, unsalvable abnormal and inferior mortals. There exist on even the most normal of the evolutionary worlds sufficient differences between individuals and between numerous social groups to provide for the full exercise of all those noble traits of altruistic sentiment and unselfish mortal ministry without perpetuating the socially unfit and the morally degenerate strains of evolving humanity. There is abundant opportunity for the exercise of tolerance and the function of altruism in behalf of those unfortunate and needy individuals who have not irretrievably lost their moral heritage and forever destroyed their spiritual birthright.

Please note that Paper 52 describes the evolutionary process as directed by our celestial rulers without rebellion, default, isolation, or separation of mortals and celestial leadership. This process of bio upliftment is not and never should be in the hands of immature mortals. Never!! In our own case on Urantia, science and mortal leadership will make progress and also blunder our way through genetic research and disease elimination. Let us hope love and wisdom will arrive along with such scientific abilities and progress.

But nowhere does the UB show any disregard for loving kindness and tender mercy for any persons who suffer from mental, emotional, or physical maladies.

Hope that helps....and don't mean to be argumentative at all. Do not hesitate to ask questions or point out any text which confuses, surprises, or concerns you. That's why we are all here after all!!!

:wink: :biggrin:



xobeht wrote:
Dear William S.,

You are not alone. After my first read-through I was in disagreement with a lot of what I read. I was angry at some of it too. It took a long time to become accustom to the blunt and direct language. I truly did not like whole sections of what I was reading. For some reason I persisted and I haven't stopped reading it since the mid 90's.

I would make the suggestion that this book is a lifetime effort and a real dedication. When you get to part 4 you will read about an individual who will give you an example of what real dedication looks like when applied with a whole heart. We humans are so biased and indoctrinated by this planet that we hardly give credit to our ignorance and cannot realize that we really view reality as if it were through the hole of a straw. We have no clue of the big picture of things and it takes years (sometimes decades) to pound the concepts of that bigger picture into our thick skulls, at least this is true of many of us who have given this book that much time to work its way into our souls.

After you read it through once you might get the idea that it is part 4 that will change the world, the other three parts might help change the individual but, part 4 is what the world needs. I truly believe that this book was printed with just that purpose in mind and it is us "the readers" wherein this change happens through. Perhaps William you have been called to assist !

Sincerely,
Paul


Me here: Everything is else is mostly irrelevant to the topic and an obvious hijacking by Stephen and supported by Bonita! Or that's my opinion anyway.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Sep 14, 2019 7:01 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Dear xobeht, and All,

The last three posts (including one post of commentary on these offensive posts) have been removed. This also has earned a time-out for the offender.

maryjo


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