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I will not draw out a long missive for the sake of brevity. So let's get right to the nitty-gritty. What are mind traits of survival value TA duplicates? Originally, and I attribute this to my Christian background (I am born Catholic,) which I had used somewhat to interpret the revelations, I believed these traits were morally and righteously centered.

I have come to a place of understanding, at the present, where I reject such notion. I do not think mind traits of survival value which repose in the soul necessarily are morally grounded. Why do I say this? Because, sophistry was promoted by Lucifer on the mansion world and assumed by many ascendant candidates with huge souls, plain and simple. Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality").

What prompted me to post this is a statement by a participant of the board on an earlier post, and to paraphrase: unspirituality can sometimes be confused with spirituality. What I find interesting is unspirituality, which I am of the opinion has survival value, persists all the way up to the seventh mansion world!

Now I think it begs the question, what are some examples of unspirituality?


I am going out on the limb here and claim what Catholics call "seven deadly sins" and "mortal sin" qualify as unspirituality; we would definitely find these behaviors and thinking processes on the mansion world, especially in the lower mansions.

What are you thoughts on this topic?

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"Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality"). "

Beings remain imperfect throughout the ascension journey until they become perfected and enter Paradise. So, yes, what you term "unspirituality" - and what I term imperfection - does exist in the Mansion Worlds. Your use of the word "purge" above, is a bit strong and inaccurate. "Purge" implies something that happens TO a person. Whereas, our work in the Mansion Worlds and beyond is to grow and develop/ cultivate our spirituality gradually over time. We must do all the work. It is not done TO us.


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Interestingly, however, the term purge, which is found in the Bible and enlarged by the Catholic Church (doctrine of purgatory), is used by the celestials, so I think it is appropriate. Take a read here:

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47:9.1 (538.6) The experience on this sphere is the crowning achievement of the immediate postmortal career. During your sojourn here you will receive the instruction of many teachers, all of whom will co-operate in the task of preparing you for residence on Jerusem. Any discernible differences between those mortals hailing from the isolated and retarded worlds and those survivors from the more advanced and enlightened spheres are virtually obliterated during the sojourn
on the seventh mansion world. Here you will be purged of all the remnants of unfortunate heredity, unwholesome environment, and unspiritual planetary tendencies. The last remnants of the “mark of the beast” are here eradicated.



Agon D. Onter wrote:
"Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality"). "

Beings remain imperfect throughout the ascension journey until they become perfected and enter Paradise. So, yes, what you term "unspirituality" - and what I term imperfection - does exist in the Mansion Worlds. Your use of the word "purge" above, is a bit strong and inaccurate. "Purge" implies something that happens TO a person. Whereas, our work in the Mansion Worlds and beyond is to grow and develop/ cultivate our spirituality gradually over time. We must do all the work. It is not done TO us.

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Interesting! Well, I still don't like the word. But it's good to know it's accurate in terms of UB verbiage. Thanks!


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Interesting! Well, I still don't like the word. But it's good to know it's accurate in terms of UB verbiage. Thanks!


I guess the Mansion World, by earthly standards, could be considered "paradise." But from the perspective of the spirit, I highly doubt it is anything near that! So many surviving human souls bring their dysfunctional baggage into that world, and got the celestial authorities hands full (the frustration of correcting these personalities they must go through)! Imagine a gangbanger carrying that same mentality into the mansions smdh! If only I could bypass that world! lmfao :D





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brooklyn_born wrote:
Because, sophistry was promoted by Lucifer on the mansion world and assumed by many ascendant candidates with huge souls, plain and simple. Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality").


Doesn't this give credence to the idea that those with even the smallest flicker of faith make it to the mansion worlds? Some of these are folks on shaky ground, mere embryos, rather than "huge souls". I don't think we are given much information on the size of the souls who faltered in faith, but we do know they were on the lower mansion words and unfused, which doesn't necessarily mean their souls were huge but rather undeveloped, in my opinion.

(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.


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My understanding is once you pass death, at the first level of mansonia, you have a full blown soul. No longer is it in embryonic state. From our perspective, the soul of any one in the afterlife is big. As you move through the mansion worlds, the soul grows even bigger, exponentially, and never in the opposite direction. Take a read:

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66:4.9 (744.8) ... these Jerusemites were superhuman beings—they possessed souls of ascendant growth. During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds. And the souls of the Caligastia one hundred had thus expanded through the progressive experiences of the seven mansion worlds to citizenship status on Jerusem.


katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Because, sophistry was promoted by Lucifer on the mansion world and assumed by many ascendant candidates with huge souls, plain and simple. Moreover, the function of the morontia sphere (mansion world) is to purge the soul of character defects and flaws (sin, error and iniquity, ie., "unspirituality").


Doesn't this give credence to the idea that those with even the smallest flicker of faith make it to the mansion worlds? Some of these are folks on shaky ground, mere embryos, rather than "huge souls". I don't think we are given much information on the size of the souls who faltered in faith, but we do know they were on the lower mansion words and unfused, which doesn't necessarily mean their souls were huge but rather undeveloped, in my opinion.

(608.6) 53:7.10 The ascending mortals were vulnerable, but they withstood the sophistries of rebellion better than the lower spirits. While many on the lower mansion worlds, those who had not attained final fusion with their Adjusters, fell, it is recorded to the glory of the wisdom of the ascension scheme that not a single member of the Satania ascendant citizenship resident on Jerusem participated in the Lucifer rebellion.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
My understanding is once you pass death, at the first level of mansonia, you have a full blown soul. No longer is it in embryonic state. From our perspective, the soul of any one in the afterlife is big. As you move through the mansion worlds, the soul grows even bigger, exponentially, and never in the opposite direction.


I really don't think that's always the case. Very advanced souls go to the higher spheres after death. Those on the lower spheres are still embryonic. In the reference you provided it is stated that the soul is of embryonic state in this life and in another reference it is written that we gain nothing by dying and must begin on the mansion worlds exactly where we leave off here. Note in the reference below that it is possible to get beyond the lowest embryonic soul level while still in the flesh and achieve advanced status in the next life.

(533.5) 47:3.7 On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

I'm not sure what you mean by a full-blown soul, but the reference you cited is about the superhuman Jerusemites who had gone through all seven mansion worlds and had not yet fused with their Adjusters, so their souls were still developing. I would think a full-blown soul is a fused soul, but that may not be what you meant.


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Full blown soul means no longer in embryonic estate. There is no embryonic estate of a soul in the afterlife. Souls are released from the embryonic estate once the mortal dies in the material world and awakens on the mansion.

The verse I provided tells you the sequence of events of the birth of the soul. I will isolate just that part of the narrative.

Quote:
66:4.9 (744.8) ...During the mortal life in the flesh the soul is of embryonic estate; it is born (resurrected) in the morontia life and experiences growth through the successive morontia worlds.


Sequence of events of the soul as relayed by the author:

Event 1: soul is an embryo during mortality.
Event 2: soul is born in morontia life
Event 3: soul grows as it moves from mansion to mansion.

To address your statement about those who resurrect on the high ends of the morontia. My understanding is those advance humans have survival traits conducive for the higher mansion worlds, which qualifies them to bypass the low ends of the morontia spheres. A mother Teresa would be someone who had an embryonic state soul with survival values that belonged to the highest mansion world, if that analogy paints a clearer picture of what I mean. Basically, for advance standing humans, those same surviving values counterparted by their TA grew the size of their souls commensurate with the high end morontia spheres. And I would gather the growth period was instantaneous once the soul was released from the embryo.


katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
My understanding is once you pass death, at the first level of mansonia, you have a full blown soul. No longer is it in embryonic state. From our perspective, the soul of any one in the afterlife is big. As you move through the mansion worlds, the soul grows even bigger, exponentially, and never in the opposite direction.


I really don't think that's always the case. Very advanced souls go to the higher spheres after death. Those on the lower spheres are still embryonic. In the reference you provided it is stated that the soul is of embryonic state in this life and in another reference it is written that we gain nothing by dying and must begin on the mansion worlds exactly where we leave off here. Note in the reference below that it is possible to get beyond the lowest embryonic soul level while still in the flesh and achieve advanced status in the next life.

(533.5) 47:3.7 On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

I'm not sure what you mean by a full-blown soul, but the reference you cited is about the superhuman Jerusemites who had gone through all seven mansion worlds and had not yet fused with their Adjusters, so their souls were still developing. I would think a full-blown soul is a fused soul, but that may not be what you meant.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Souls are released from the embryonic estate once the mortal dies in the material world and awakens on the mansion.


How do you interpret the reference that informs us that we gain nothing after death and resurrection, that we resume our soul development at the exact level it was at the time of death. If we end as an embryo here, we begin as an embryo there.

Here is the reference again for convenience and an additional one:

(533.5) 47:3.7 On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

(532.7) 47:3.1  On the mansion worlds the resurrected mortal survivors resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death. When you go from Urantia to the first mansion world, you will notice considerable change, but if you had come from a more normal and progressive sphere of time, you would hardly notice the difference except for the fact that you were in possession of a different body; the tabernacle of flesh and blood has been left behind on the world of nativity.

brooklyn_born wrote:
And I would gather the growth period was instantaneous once the soul was released from the embryo.


I have trouble with that because the soul evolves and that doesn't happen in an instant. There's no magic that can transform an embryonic soul into something more advanced.

(541.2) 48:0.2  The morontia life, extending as it does over the various stages of the local universe career, is the only possible approach whereby material mortals could attain the threshold of the spirit world. What magic could death, the natural dissolution of the material body, hold that such a simple step should instantly transform the mortal and material mind into an immortal and perfected spirit? Such beliefs are but ignorant superstitions and pleasing fables.

I think the same thing applies on the mansion worlds as here, the soul grows by circle conquest. Circle conquest is achieved by decision making. Our education on the mansion worlds is meant to influence the wisdom of our decision-making process for cosmic problem solving. In the last sentence of the first reference below it is explained that the psychic/cosmic circles are part of the mansion world experience if not completed in this life.

(1211.1) 110:6.16 Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of progressive approach to the morontia consciousness of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind. These circle attainments are only relatively related to God-consciousness. A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

(435.7) 39:4.4 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them—advance in spirit status—by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always—in any sphere, in all of them—this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.

(1210:1)  110:6.6 Every decision you make either impedes or facilitates the function of the Adjuster; likewise do these very decisions determine your advancement in the circles of human achievement. It is true that the supremacy of a decision, its crisis relationship, has a great deal to do with its circle-making influence; nevertheless, numbers of decisions, frequent repetitions, persistent repetitions, are also essential to the habit-forming certainty of such reactions.

(1229.3) 112:2.16 An ascending onetime human personality passes through two great phases of increasing volitional dominance over the self and in the universe:
(1229.4) 112:2.17 1. The prefinaliter or God-seeking experience of augmenting the self-realization through a technique of identity expansion and actualization together with cosmic problem solving and consequent universe mastery.
(1229.5) 112:2.18 2. The postfinaliter or God-revealing experience of the creative expansion of self-realization through revealing the Supreme Being of experience to the God-seeking intelligences who have not yet attained the divine levels of Godlikeness.


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When you die and enter sleep of death, TA is detached. You enter a static state of existence. There is no growth of any aspect of self during this period. The embryo soul ceases development during sleep of death. This is what is meant by you gain nothing. Basically whatever personality level you were just before death is revisited when the personality is resurrected.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Souls are released from the embryonic estate once the mortal dies in the material world and awakens on the mansion.


How do you interpret the reference that informs us that we gain nothing after death and resurrection, that we resume our soul development at the exact level it was at the time of death. If we end as an embryo here, we begin as an embryo there.

Here is the reference again for convenience and an additional one:

(533.5) 47:3.7 On mansion world number one (or another in case of advanced status) you will resume your intellectual training and spiritual development at the exact level whereon they were interrupted by death. Between the time of planetary death or translation and resurrection on the mansion world, mortal man gains absolutely nothing aside from experiencing the fact of survival. You begin over there right where you leave off down here.

(532.7) 47:3.1  On the mansion worlds the resurrected mortal survivors resume their lives just where they left off when overtaken by death. When you go from Urantia to the first mansion world, you will notice considerable change, but if you had come from a more normal and progressive sphere of time, you would hardly notice the difference except for the fact that you were in possession of a different body; the tabernacle of flesh and blood has been left behind on the world of nativity.

brooklyn_born wrote:
And I would gather the growth period was instantaneous once the soul was released from the embryo.


I have trouble with that because the soul evolves and that doesn't happen in an instant. There's no magic that can transform an embryonic soul into something more advanced.

(541.2) 48:0.2  The morontia life, extending as it does over the various stages of the local universe career, is the only possible approach whereby material mortals could attain the threshold of the spirit world. What magic could death, the natural dissolution of the material body, hold that such a simple step should instantly transform the mortal and material mind into an immortal and perfected spirit? Such beliefs are but ignorant superstitions and pleasing fables.

I think the same thing applies on the mansion worlds as here, the soul grows by circle conquest. Circle conquest is achieved by decision making. Our education on the mansion worlds is meant to influence the wisdom of our decision-making process for cosmic problem solving. In the last sentence of the first reference below it is explained that the psychic/cosmic circles are part of the mansion world experience if not completed in this life.

(1211.1) 110:6.16 Perhaps these psychic circles of mortal progression would be better denominated cosmic levels — actual meaning grasps and value realizations of progressive approach to the morontia consciousness of initial relationship of the evolutionary soul with the emerging Supreme Being. And it is this very relationship that makes it forever impossible fully to explain the significance of the cosmic circles to the material mind. These circle attainments are only relatively related to God-consciousness. A seventh or sixth circler can be almost as truly God-knowing — sonship conscious — as a second or first circler, but such lower circle beings are far less conscious of experiential relation to the Supreme Being, universe citizenship. The attainment of these cosmic circles will become a part of the ascenders’ experience on the mansion worlds if they fail of such achievement before natural death.

(435.7) 39:4.4 The keys of the kingdom of heaven are: sincerity, more sincerity, and more sincerity. All men have these keys. Men use them—advance in spirit status—by decisions, by more decisions, and by more decisions. The highest moral choice is the choice of the highest possible value, and always—in any sphere, in all of them—this is to choose to do the will of God. If man thus chooses, he is great, though he be the humblest citizen of Jerusem or even the least of mortals on Urantia.

(1210:1)  110:6.6 Every decision you make either impedes or facilitates the function of the Adjuster; likewise do these very decisions determine your advancement in the circles of human achievement. It is true that the supremacy of a decision, its crisis relationship, has a great deal to do with its circle-making influence; nevertheless, numbers of decisions, frequent repetitions, persistent repetitions, are also essential to the habit-forming certainty of such reactions.

(1229.3) 112:2.16 An ascending onetime human personality passes through two great phases of increasing volitional dominance over the self and in the universe:
(1229.4) 112:2.17 1. The prefinaliter or God-seeking experience of augmenting the self-realization through a technique of identity expansion and actualization together with cosmic problem solving and consequent universe mastery.
(1229.5) 112:2.18 2. The postfinaliter or God-revealing experience of the creative expansion of self-realization through revealing the Supreme Being of experience to the God-seeking intelligences who have not yet attained the divine levels of Godlikeness.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
When you die and enter sleep of death, TA is detached. You enter a static state of existence. There is no growth of any aspect of self during this period. The embryo soul ceases development during sleep of death. This is what is meant by you gain nothing. Basically whatever personality level you were just before death is revisited when the personality is resurrected.


I agree with that – that you begin soul growth right where you left off since the soul hasn't grown one iota (or shrunk) during the interim of sleep. Incidentally, no one knows what happens to the personality during that time. All we know is that it is not asleep with the soul. Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "personality level", but the personality never changes. It can certainly function on seven different dimensional levels though. Are you referring to levels of personality realization, the seven psychic circles? References:

(1234.4) 112:5.15 During the transit of surviving mortals from the world of origin to the mansion worlds, whether they experience personality reassembly on the third period or ascend at the time of a group resurrection, the record of personality constitution is faithfully preserved by the archangels on their worlds of special activities. These beings are not the custodians of personality (as the guardian seraphim are of the soul), but it is nonetheless true that every identifiable factor of personality is effectually safeguarded in the custody of these dependable trustees of mortal survival. As to the exact whereabouts of mortal personality during the time intervening between death and survival, we do not know.

(1226.13) 112:1.9 The type of personality bestowed upon Urantia mortals has a potentiality of seven dimensions of self-expression or person-realization. These dimensional phenomena are realizable as three on the finite level, three on the absonite level, and one on the absolute level. On subabsolute levels this seventh or totality dimension is experiencible as the fact of personality. This supreme dimension is an associable absolute and, while not infinite, is dimensionally potential for subinfinite penetration of the absolute.

(1210:2)  110:6.7 It is difficult precisely to define the seven levels of human progression, for the reason that these levels are personal; they are variable for each individual and are apparently determined by the growth capacity of each human being. The conquest of these levels of cosmic evolution is reflected in three ways:
(1210:3)  110:6.8 1.Adjuster attunement. The spiritizing mind nears the Adjuster presence proportional to circle attainment.
(1210:4)  110:6.9 2. Soul evolution. The emergence of the morontia soul indicates the extent and depth of circle mastery.
(1210:5)  110:6.10 3.Personality reality. The degree of selfhood reality is directly determined by circle conquest. Persons become more real as they ascend from the seventh to the first level of mortal existence.


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katroofjebus wrote:
Also, I'm not sure what you mean by "personality level", but the personality never changes.


I could have phrased it better. What I mean is the character of the personality.

This scripture explains it fairly well:

108:1.6 (1186.4) 3. Combined intellectual and spiritual powers. The degree to which these two endowments may possibly be associated, combined, so as to produce strength of human character and contribute to the certain evolution of an immortal soul of survival value.

The human character is always in flux, thus, producing a stronger personality; character is a main ingredient of personality. Recall, personality is not real cosmically if it is material in nature. So in essence there is augmentation of personality, in-toto.


Quote:
It can certainly function on seven different dimensional levels though. Are you referring to levels of personality realization, the seven psychic circles? References:


Absolutely!

This quote encapsulates the augmentation of personality:

Quote:
"Persons become more real as they ascend from the seventh to the first level of mortal existence"

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brooklyn_born wrote:
I could have phrased it better. What I mean is the character of the personality.


Oh, okay. So yes, the character of the personality becomes more real in proportion to its divinity attainment. Meaning, the character upon resurrection reflects the personality's divinity status attained during life through the conquest of the psychic/cosmic circles. Which is another way of indicating the degree to which the individual has progressed in nearness to divinity and Adjuster attunement. The resulting evolved character of the personality is a part of the soul. Prior to resurrection the character of the personality is resident in the soul and in the safekeeping of the seraphim. After resurrection it is activated by the returning Thought Adjuster. As for the personality prior to resurrection, it is in an undisclosed location.

This reference describes the soul as the vehicle for character after death:

(1236.5) 112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes active memory when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.


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Excellent UB scripture! I am thinking human material mind does not need a spiritual agent to function. It is able to work independently. However, human soul, a sort of mind, needs an Adjuster or some form of eternal fragment to function. But the Adjuster needs no agent to function independently. I see parallels between Adjuster and material mind.

katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I could have phrased it better. What I mean is the character of the personality.


Oh, okay. So yes, the character of the personality becomes more real in proportion to its divinity attainment. Meaning, the character upon resurrection reflects the personality's divinity status attained during life through the conquest of the psychic/cosmic circles. Which is another way of indicating the degree to which the individual has progressed in nearness to divinity and Adjuster attunement. The resulting evolved character of the personality is a part of the soul. Prior to resurrection the character of the personality is resident in the soul and in the safekeeping of the seraphim. After resurrection it is activated by the returning Thought Adjuster. As for the personality prior to resurrection, it is in an undisclosed location.

This reference describes the soul as the vehicle for character after death:

(1236.5) 112:6.7 Mortal mind, prior to death, is self-consciously independent of the Adjuster presence; adjutant mind needs only the associated material-energy pattern to enable it to operate. But the morontia soul, being superadjutant, does not retain self-consciousness without the Adjuster when deprived of the material-mind mechanism. This evolving soul does, however, possess a continuing character derived from the decisions of its former associated adjutant mind, and this character becomes active memory when the patterns thereof are energized by the returning Adjuster.

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