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no sophist wrote:
I don’t know how to pray to God the Mother


Of course you do. If it's true, as you say that "God the Mother" is responsible for providing wisdom, then every time you pray for wisdom, every time you pray for help with a mental confusion, every time you attempt to find a higher meaning, you're praying to "God the Mother". In fact, the very impulse to pray itself comes from angels who are the offspring of "God the Mother."

(1245:4) 113:4.4 The impulse of worship largely originates in the spirit promptings of the higher mind adjutants, reinforced by the leadings of the Adjuster. But the urge to pray so often experienced by God-conscious mortals very often arises as the result of seraphic influence. The guarding seraphim is constantly manipulating the mortal environment for the purpose of augmenting the cosmic insight of the human ascender to the end that such a survival candidate may acquire enhanced realization of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster and thus be enabled to yield increased co-operation with the spiritual mission of the divine presence.

no sophist wrote:
“I believe my point was that for every religious generated question (a 6th Adjutant religious impulse) God the father is the answer.


I don't believe that is entirely true; it's overly simplified. Religious questions arising from the adjutant level are essentially moral questions and moral questions also utilize the spirit of wisdom. It is written that real religion begins with the direction of wisdom. Additionally, the above quote informs us that the impulse to worship comes from the "higher mind adjutants". Note the plural.

(948.8 ) 85:7.3 When the worship urge is admonished and directed by wisdom - meditative and experiential thinking - it then begins to develop into the phenomenon of real religion. When the seventh adjutant spirit, the spirit of wisdom, achieves effective ministration, then in worship man begins to turn away from nature and natural objects to the God of nature and to the eternal Creator of all things natural.

Getting back to the quote in question:

(554.6) 48:6.32 These angels are all in the chain of recorders extending from the lowest to the highest custodians of the facts of time and the truths of eternity. Some day they will teach you to seek truth as well as fact, to expand your soul as well as your mind. Even now you should learn to water the garden of your heart as well as to seek for the dry sands of knowledge. Forms are valueless when lessons are learned. No chick may be had without the shell, and no shell is of any worth after the chick is hatched.

Facts are things. Things are part of material reality. Reality has three levels of which the material level is only one. If the mind focuses only on facts, it is focusing only on one level of reality, the material level. When the mind does that it can produce nothing with eternal value.

(2094.1) 196:3.2 There are just three elements in universal reality: fact, idea, and relation. The religious consciousness identifies these realities as science, philosophy, and truth. Philosophy would be inclined to view these activities as reason, wisdom, and faith - physical reality, intellectual reality, and spiritual reality. We are in the habit of designating these realities as thing, meaning, and value.

Facts must be given meaning. This is where the mind begins its adventure in finding truth. Meanings are a function of mind attempting to wed facts to relation, the science to truth, reason to faith, physical reality to spiritual reality, things to value. And it does this with the aid of wisdom, that middle ground of cosmic mind ministry which begins with the adjutant of wisdom. Facts are the first cosmic intuition; mind searching for meaning is the second cosmic intuition and truth is the third cosmic intuition. When all three are integrated, coordinated by personality (the great unifier) then there is balance, growth and progress. The forms, the egg, the factual things, have served their purpose in bringing about the discovery of new meanings in old facts which leads to growth and progress in the universal search for value.

(1120:2) 102:2.5 But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mind is firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

(1139.5) 103:7.13 Reason is the act of recognizing the conclusions of consciousness with regard to the experience in and with the phyisical world of energy and matter. Faith is the act of recognizing the validity of spiritual consciousness — something which is incapable of other mortal proof. Logic is the synthetic truth-seeking progression of the unity of faith and reason and is founded on the constitutive mind endowments of mortal beings, the innate recognition of things, meanings, and values.



9:4.5 Energy is thing, mind is meaning, spirit is value.

111:6.6 Science is the source of facts, and mind cannot operate without facts. They are the building blocks in the construction of wisdom which are cemented together by life experience.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
And Holy Spirit is the phrase I used to describe "the encachement of all received into the human mind from The Third Source and Center." I believe that Bradley is correct by connecting this concept in the manner he had.


Yes, but the Third Source and Center and the Holy Spirit are two separate and unique personalities. The two have been frequently confused with one another. The Holy Spirit is a combined spirit which includes both the spiritual circuit of the personality presence of the local universe Creative Spirit and the spirit of the Third Source Center. And the Holy Spirit, being superadjutant, is separate and distinct from adjutant mind ministry,. The Holy Spirit only ministers to the morontia mind of the soul which is referred to as the superadjutant supermind, or the mind-mind.

(95.6) 8:5.3 In your sacred writings the term Spirit of God seems to be used interchangeably to designate both the Infinite Spirit on Paradise and the Creative Spirit of your local universe. The Holy Spirit is the spiritual circuit of this Creative Daughter of the Paradise Infinite Spirit. The Holy Spirit is a circuit indigenous to each local universe and is confined to the spiritual realm of that creation; but the Infinite Spirit is omnipresent.

(2062:6) 194:2.17 5. The spirit of the Infinite Spirit and the Universe Mother Spirit--the Holy Spirit, generally regarded as the spirit of the Universe Spirit.

92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit--this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities.

The Third Source and Center does not make direct contact with the human mind except through the mind gravity circuit. The Third Source and Center is the ancestor of human mind which has been down-stepped through multiple ministries by multiple personalities. In fact, it is written that the mortals of Urantia sometimes confuse the Third Source and Center with the cosmic mind, of which the mortal mind is fashioned. The absolute mind of the Third Source and Center transcends the mind of the universes of time and space, which is the cosmic mind. The cosmic mind, a subabsolute manifestation of that absolute transcendent mind, is derived from the Seven Master Spirits, all of whom are separate and unique personalities.

(103:3)  9:5.5 Because the Third Person is the source of mind, do not presume to reckon that all phenomena of mind are divine. Human intellect is rooted in the material origin of the animal races. Universe intelligence is no more a true revelation of God who is mind than is physical nature a true revelation of the beauty and harmony of Paradise. Perfection is in nature, but nature is not perfect. The Conjoint Creator is the source of mind, but mind is not the Conjoint Creator.

(92.3) 8:2.2   The Third Source and Center is known by numerous titles: the Universal Spirit, the Supreme Guide, the Conjoint Creator, the Divine Executive, the Infinite Mind, the Spirit of Spirits, the Paradise Mother Spirit, the Conjoint Actor, the Final Co-ordinator, the Omnipresent Spirit, the Absolute Intelligence, the Divine Action; and on Urantia he is sometimes confused with the cosmic mind.

9:4.3  The Conjoint Creator is absolute only in the domain of mind, in the realms of universal intelligence. The mind of the Third Source and Center is infinite; it utterly transcends the active and functioning mind circuits of the universe of universes. The mind endowment of the seven superuniverses is derived from the Seven Master Spirits, the primary personalities of the Conjoint Creator. These Master Spirits distribute mind to the grand universe as the cosmic mind, and your local universe is pervaded by the Nebadon variant of the Orvonton type of cosmic mind.

(189.2) 16:4.1 The Seven Master Spirits are the full representation of the Infinite Spirit to the evolutionary universes. They represent the Third Source and Center in the relationships of energy, mind, and spirit.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
But if a man is spiritually reborn, what does this imply for his relationship, his dependence on the mother for impression of the universe? with the Divine Minister, or even the Cosmic Mind?


That is correct. Rebirth in the spirit is an axiom which refers to the phenomenon of spiritualized thinking. Spiritualized thinking occurs in the spiritualized, superadjutant, supermind of the soul with the aid of the Holy Spirit, hence the phrase, "born of the spirit". Incidentally, the soul is also the only place where truth is experienced.


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katroofjebus wrote:
[...] When the mind does that it can produce nothing with eternal value. [...]

"196:3.10 (2094.9) The human mind does not create real values; human experience does not yield universe insight. Concerning insight, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, all that the human mind can do is to discover, recognize, interpret, and choose."

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no sophist, the Second Source and Center is "Eternal Mother", but we are taught to use the pronoun "He" when we speak of even the Divine Minister, or as in "third person perspective" for God. Privately, the way an individual identifies Deity seems irrelevent. I understand the qualm "don't know how to pray to God the Mother", but the problem might not be in the way you identify Deity. If prayers are described in part as "an indictment of the soul", then I will have to take your observation and supplicate further "I do not really know how to pray at all, but I think I can pray".

Publicly, or philosophically, I can see how "He" would be good to describe even the agencies of the Third Source and Center. Women, and men alike, become ascenders "Universal Fathers" in the eventuational scheme, and this ministry of the Holy Spirit, even if as a Mother Spirit or whatever, is deigned to help us become "like the First Source and Center". So we could say "He" (the Divine Minister) is helping I to become that.

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It’s really more about the answer than the prayer - but the pattern I was trying to describe - it’s getting lost.
When I want facts I do science but if I want to know the meaning and value of facts I become a philosopher.
When I pray and want truth I’m a religionists.
What diety do people rely on for truth?
Truth waters the soul.
Philosophy the mind.
But the pattern I describe, I suppose I’m the only one that thinks there is one.
What was Jesus really teaching John?
Anybody??


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supermath wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
[...] When the mind does that it can produce nothing with eternal value. [...]

"196:3.10 (2094.9) The human mind does not create real values; human experience does not yield universe insight. Concerning insight, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, all that the human mind can do is to discover, recognize, interpret, and choose."


OK. How about this: When the mind does that it can produce no thought with eternal value.

(84.5) 7:3.5 But how much more perfect is the superb technique of the spiritual world! If anything originates in your consciousness that is fraught with supreme spiritual value, when once you give it expression, no power in the universe can prevent its flashing directly to the Absolute Spirit Personality of all creation.


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no sophist wrote:
What diety do people rely on for truth?


How about the Spirit of Truth?

(1948.3) 180:4.2 And this Spirit of Truth which I will bestow upon you shall guide and comfort you and shall eventually lead you into all truth.
(2044.4) 191:6.3 Soon will the Spirit of Truth come upon you, and he shall lead you into all truth.
(1949.3) 180:5.1 The new helper which Jesus promised to send into the hearts of believers, to pour out upon all flesh, is the Spirit of Truth. This divine endowment is not the letter or law of truth, neither is it to function as the form or expression of truth. The new teacher is the conviction of truth, the consciousness and assurance of true meanings on real spirit levels. And this new teacher is the spirit of living and growing truth, expanding, unfolding, and adaptative truth.

(647:04) 56:10.13 The recognition of true relations implies a mind competent to discriminate between truth and error. The bestowal Spirit of Truth which invests the human minds of Urantia is unerringly responsive to truth--the living spirit relationship of all things and all beings as they are co-ordinated in the eternal ascent Godward.

no sophist wrote:
Truth waters the soul.
Philosophy the mind.


The Spirit of Truth is the soul's philosopher.

(1108.1) 101:3.2 Faith-insight, or spiritual intuition, is the endowment of the cosmic mind in association with the Thought Adjuster, which is the Father’s gift to man. Spiritual reason, soul intelligence, is the endowment of the Holy Spirit, the Creative Spirit’s gift to man. Spiritual philosophy, the wisdom of spirit realities, is the endowment of the Spirit of Truth, the combined gift of the bestowal Sons to the children of men. And the co-ordination and interassociation of these spirit endowments constitute man a spirit personality in potential destiny.

no sophist wrote:
What was Jesus really teaching John?
Anybody??


I think I'm losing track of this conversation. I think I missed it. What teaching are you referring to exactly?


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no sophist wrote:
It’s really more about the answer than the prayer - but the pattern I was trying to describe - it’s getting lost.
When I want facts I do science but if I want to know the meaning and value of facts I become a philosopher.
When I pray and want truth I’m a religionists.
What diety do people rely on for truth?
Truth waters the soul.
Philosophy the mind.
But the pattern I describe, I suppose I’m the only one that thinks there is one.
What was Jesus really teaching John?
Anybody??


I doubt I can clarify anything...but I might muddle it up enough for something else to float to the top?

I think the UB teaches us that there is no need, or capability, to properly direct our prayers....those which are determined to be sincere and actionable are always forwarded directly to its suitable destination for reply....no matter to what Deity, Entity, pagan god, rock, or tree to which we may choose to address it to. I think in the example of the mortal family, the lesson is not about which parent to direct the prayer to or even which one answers which prayer so much as the reality of the loving, friendly, understanding, nurturing family 'unit'....does it matter which parent is addressed? Do not our parents work together in the upholding of the entire family and household?

Also, I think the UB teaches we cannot discern who precisely answers our prayers or delivers truth or confirmation of truth or speaks to us or gives answers or solutions or encouragement or understanding or insight. But I don't think any personage of Deity gives us facts and universe knowledge by revelation. Science and metaphysical constructions and facts and material knowledge are discovered by observation and logic and reason and experience....and epochal revelation to mortals and in the schools systems of the universe to all beings who do not already know everything....that's most everybody!!

I believe the UB documents that it is the 7 fold and trifold admixtures of Deity and power and perspective that deliver most of the reality realized in time and space and so many of the ministries to the creatures of time and space...making it difficult to disentangle or simplify the source(s) of any particular ministry. They seem to be so very interdependent.

Also, the strength and amount of our faith and our relationship with love and our very personal experiential wisdom combine as lever and fulcrum in very powerful ways to all causes and effects related to our perception, realization, experience, expression, application, and understanding of all fact and all truth and our relationship with the mind ministering Deities.

I hope you get some illumination to your query no sophist!!

102:6.1 The philosophic elimination of religious fear and the steady progress of science add greatly to the mortality of false gods; and even though these casualties of man-made deities may momentarily befog the spiritual vision, they eventually destroy that ignorance and superstition which so long obscured the living God of eternal love. The relation between the creature and the Creator is a living experience, a dynamic religious faith, which is not subject to precise definition. To isolate part of life and call it religion is to disintegrate life and to distort religion. And this is just why the God of worship claims all allegiance or none.

102:6.3 The religionist of philosophic attainment has faith in a personal God of personal salvation, something more than a reality, a value, a level of achievement, an exalted process, a transmutation, the ultimate of time-space, an idealization, the personalization of energy, the entity of gravity, a human projection, the idealization of self, nature's upthrust, the inclination to goodness, the forward impulse of evolution, or a sublime hypothesis. The religionist has faith in a God of love. Love is the essence of religion and the wellspring of superior civilization.

102:6.4 Faith transforms the philosophic God of probability into the saving God of certainty in the personal religious experience. Skepticism may challenge the theories of theology, but confidence in the dependability of personal experience affirms the truth of that belief which has grown into faith.

102:6.5 Convictions about God may be arrived at through wise reasoning, but the individual becomes God-knowing only by faith, through personal experience. In much that pertains to life, probability must be reckoned with, but when contacting with cosmic reality, certainty may be experienced when such meanings and values are approached by living faith. The God-knowing soul dares to say, “I know,” even when this knowledge of God is questioned by the unbeliever who denies such certitude because it is not wholly supported by intellectual logic. To every such doubter the believer only replies, “How do you know that I do not know?”

102:6.6 Though reason can always question faith, faith can always supplement both reason and logic. Reason creates the probability which faith can transform into a moral certainty, even a spiritual experience. God is the first truth and the last fact; therefore does all truth take origin in him, while all facts exist relative to him. God is absolute truth. As truth one may know God, but to understand—to explain—God, one must explore the fact of the universe of universes. The vast gulf between the experience of the truth of God and ignorance as to the fact of God can be bridged only by living faith. Reason alone cannot achieve harmony between infinite truth and universal fact.

102:6.7 Belief may not be able to resist doubt and withstand fear, but faith is always triumphant over doubting, for faith is both positive and living. The positive always has the advantage over the negative, truth over error, experience over theory, spiritual realities over the isolated facts of time and space. The convincing evidence of this spiritual certainty consists in the social fruits of the spirit which such believers, faithers, yield as a result of this genuine spiritual experience. Said Jesus: “If you love your fellows as I have loved you, then shall all men know that you are my disciples.”

102:6.8 To science God is a possibility, to psychology a desirability, to philosophy a probability, to religion a certainty, an actuality of religious experience. Reason demands that a philosophy which cannot find the God of probability should be very respectful of that religious faith which can and does find the God of certitude. Neither should science discount religious experience on grounds of credulity, not so long as it persists in the assumption that man's intellectual and philosophic endowments emerged from increasingly lesser intelligences the further back they go, finally taking origin in primitive life which was utterly devoid of all thinking and feeling.

102:6.9 The facts of evolution must not be arrayed against the truth of the reality of the certainty of the spiritual experience of the religious living of the God-knowing mortal. Intelligent men should cease to reason like children and should attempt to use the consistent logic of adulthood, logic which tolerates the concept of truth alongside the observation of fact. Scientific materialism has gone bankrupt when it persists, in the face of each recurring universe phenomenon, in refunding its current objections by referring what is admittedly higher back into that which is admittedly lower. Consistency demands the recognition of the activities of a purposive Creator.

102:6.10 Organic evolution is a fact; purposive or progressive evolution is a truth which makes consistent the otherwise contradictory phenomena of the ever-ascending achievements of evolution. The higher any scientist progresses in his chosen science, the more will he abandon the theories of materialistic fact in favor of the cosmic truth of the dominance of the Supreme Mind. Materialism cheapens human life; the gospel of Jesus tremendously enhances and supernally exalts every mortal. Mortal existence must be visualized as consisting in the intriguing and fascinating experience of the realization of the reality of the meeting of the human upreach and the divine and saving downreach.


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Jesus was teaching John Mark why his and Jesus' upbringing might be considered ideal. The balance of love & wisdom, between his parents Elijah and Mary, allowed John to emerge in adulthood as an original and independent person. This magnifies the educational environment of John's home, as a greater precedent for ascencion than technical education, public education. Elijah and Mary also financed the synagogue-school tuition of Amos, John Mark's neighbour.

But how do you negotiate these ideas, in lieu of the theory that as finalitor (John Mark was told he will become a "mighty messenger") you will become like the Universal Father, nevertheless eternally a child a Son of God.

He is speaking about the circumstances by which Parents may raise a child to eventually become self-directed or independent. Compare Elijah and Mary Mark to Abraham, once again, and realise that by "allowing John to join the Apostles", there was no inherent conflict of loyalty that Amos experienced when he petitioned in his home to do the same. Was Abraham spiritually reborn when the angel of the Lord restrained him? Was Jacob spiritually reborn as Israel?

There is psychological dissonance in the way Abraham offered Isaac to heaven, but in a sense people should realise that the teaching that a father provides to his sons & daughters, is an entrustment, to rely on the Thought Adjuster in order to help the human individual forge his own relationship with the individuated Fragment. Over time and civil progress, this ideal of offering the child to service the heavenly kingdom, became internalised when Jesus offered himself not someone else to doing the Father's Will. Did the Universal Father offer Christ Michael to Nebadon in the human experience of Jesus, or did Jesus offer himself in the same way? In stead of Abraham saying to "Isaac" "you must" Jesus in the Post-Maccabaean Era, was able to deduce rationally or spiritually attain "what I must do to serve the heavenly father."

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fanofVan wrote:
I think the UB teaches us that there is no need, or capability, to properly direct our prayers


Jesus did teach us to pray in the spirit and in truth, both of which are soul-centered. I think it's not only sincerity but also the direction of one's psychic striving, "in accordance with one's enlightenment", that makes a difference when it comes to prayer. By direction I mean towards the highest spirit your personal enlightenment offers your psyche. Also, we know that all "spirit-born" prayers are answered.

146.2.14  13. Jesus taught that the prayer for divine guidance over the pathway of earthly life was next in importance to the petition for a knowledge of the Father’s will. In reality this means a prayer for divine wisdom. Jesus never taught that human knowledge and special skill could be gained by prayer. But he did teach that prayer is a factor in the enlargement of one’s capacity to receive the presence of the divine spirit. When Jesus taught his associates to pray in the spirit and in truth, he explained that he referred to praying sincerely and in accordance with one’s enlightenment, to praying wholeheartedly and intelligently, earnestly and steadfastly.

(1849.4) 168:4.13 10. All genuine spirit-born petitions are certain of an answer. Ask and you shall receive. But you should remember that you are progressive creatures of time and space; therefore must you constantly reckon with the time-space factor in the experience of your personal reception of the full answers to your manifold prayers and petitions.

fanofVan wrote:
But I don't think any personage of Deity gives us facts and universe knowledge by revelation.


I think Deity can give us new meanings for facts which is a form of knowledge, the kind that you can know and know now as explained in this reference:

(1120.1) 102:2.4  Time is an invariable element in the attainment of knowledge; religion makes its endowments immediately available, albeit there is the important factor of growth in grace, definite advancement in all phases of religious experience. Knowledge is an eternal quest; always are you learning, but never are you able to arrive at the full knowledge of absolute truth. In knowledge alone there can never be absolute certainty, only increasing probability of approximation; but the religious soul of spiritual illumination knows, and knows now. And yet this profound and positive certitude does not lead such a sound-minded religionist to take any less interest in the ups and downs of the progress of human wisdom, which is bound up on its material end with the developments of slow-moving science.


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Not certain but at the time Jesus was having this conversation with John, was John indwelt by an Adjuster?
Most people of that pre-Pentecost time were not.
Anyway, thank you everyone for your quotes, input and opinions. All very valuable.
Interpreting this revelation will go on indefinitely.
Reading between the lines has become my latest approach and sometimes I’m dead wrong while other times are revealing of multiple layers of truth, fact and inspiration waiting to be discovered.


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katroofjebus wrote:
supermath wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
[...] When the mind does that it can produce nothing with eternal value. [...]

"196:3.10 (2094.9) The human mind does not create real values; human experience does not yield universe insight. Concerning insight, the recognition of moral values and the discernment of spiritual meanings, all that the human mind can do is to discover, recognize, interpret, and choose."


OK. How about this: When the mind does that it can produce no thought with eternal value.

(84.5) 7:3.5 But how much more perfect is the superb technique of the spiritual world! If anything originates in your consciousness that is fraught with supreme spiritual value, when once you give it expression, no power in the universe can prevent its flashing directly to the Absolute Spirit Personality of all creation.

(84.5) 7:3.5 can be interpreted as: "...! As soon as the mind originates a new meaning of supreme spiritual value, ..."

So the human mind does not create values but does originate new meanings.

Note the qualification of human to 'mind' is significant. The mind of the Universal Father certainly does create values.

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Luke 11:28 "He replied, "Blessed rather are those who hear the word of God and fulfill it."" [154:6.5] "For whosoever does the will of my Father who is in heaven, the same is my mother, my brother, and my sister.”

This why 'temerity' of John Mark so strongly betokens, to me, the fact that He was Adjuster-Indwellt. It is not only in the process of petitioning in the prayer, but as in the philosophy of Jesus, i.e. "a Religion of Work", John Mark epitomizes what we remember Jesus said in Luke 11:28. To me, prayer is expressible even as in work when guided by love & wisdom. It does not have to be a spoken petition, but perhaps "to lay hold of the basket" was indited by John Mark's own individuated Father Fragment, revealing his own creature-need and as an act universally symbolic to the Apostle Nathaniel. A Basket, which holds the selection of goods that man has brought from nature.

Bradley that is a good explanation.

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supermath wrote:
(84.5) 7:3.5 can be interpreted as: "...! As soon as the mind originates a new meaning of supreme spiritual value, ..."


The references states "anything". I think that would include the discovery, recognition and interpretation of either meanings or values which are acted upon, or actualized in reality. The use of the word "fraught" in this phrase: "fraught with supreme spiritual value," means "filled with," I think. Filled with value is how I read it. That being said, I think most people act upon a supreme spiritual value when it has personal meaning.

That being said, I do think it's possible to act on a supreme value and not have knowledge of its meaning. For instance, those in dire circumstances who sacrifice their own life to save the lives of others are acting upon a supreme value. In such a case I don't know if the exact meaning actually occurs to them or if it matters. It's an act of love for which the meaning may not have immediate impact on the mind. Perhaps in hindsight it does.


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