Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Tue May 21, 2019 7:01 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 689
Location: Nanticoke NY
no sophist wrote:
Me restating:
177:2.5 For more than an hour Jesus and John continued this discussion of home life. The Master went on to explain to John how a child is wholly dependent on his parents and the associated home life for all his early concepts of everything intellectual, social, moral, and even spiritual since the family represents to the young child all that he can first know of either human or divine relationships. The child must derive his first impressions of the universe from the mother’s care; he is wholly dependent on the earthly father for his first ideas of the heavenly Father. The child’s subsequent life is made happy or unhappy, easy or difficult, in accordance with his early mental and emotional life, conditioned by these social and spiritual relationships of the home. A human being’s entire afterlife is enormously influenced by what happens during the first few years of existence.

why Jesus would mention the “universe” to a first century Jew??? And in connection to a mother???
What was Jesus referring to when he used the term “universe”
Why would a first century mother be asked to explain the “universe” to her child??


Jesus quote above takes me to the paper on Morontia life and our first exposure to the Mansion worlds and what we will be taught: we are told that we pick up there exactly where we leave off here and one of the first lessons to learn if we missed it is family. Learning to raise children.

And now for the pattern I see:

Try to be unpack this quote from paper 48:

48:6.6 These angels are all in the chain of recorders extending from the lowest to the highest custodians of the facts of time and the truths of eternity. Some day they will teach you to seek truth as well as fact, to expand your soul as well as your mind. Even now you should learn to water the garden of your heart as well as to seek for the dry sands of knowledge. Forms are valueless when lessons are learned. No chick may be had without the shell, and no shell is of any worth after the chick is hatched.

What does this teacher mean by the facts of time and the truths of eternity???
What does this teacher mean by expanding your soul as well as your mind??

Any of the above do you think would answer a religious question directed to God the father? Nope, all philosophic.


First let me say that the concept of the universe is nothing new haha. In connection to a mother is entirely poignant since there is a true empathetic bond growing from the codependency of an embryo, before even what most people think of as an infant. Inside of a shell, inside of a womb, there is a habitat for an individual creature to gestate and form. This represent the world to infant consciousness, growing up in total peace and darkness until the universe would beckon that creature to open its eyes. When creature opens its eyes for the first time, just like the duckling imprinting on other creatures as if he is the mother, like in the Dr. Seuss comic "Are you my mother?"

What Jesus may be referring to in tUB 177 is "123:2.9 4. The period of dependence on the mother, lasting up to the end of the fifth year."

I also feel strongly that a home should have just as much safety and protection as ought a living being receives protection, and so the story of Miriam having a crib is very touching to me. But when you see that Joseph, like Shiva, too busy working, not present to attend the internal affairs of a home, then you can magnify what might seem, in the perception of the child, as the presence of the mother, maybe in the way that Urantia Papers IV explains the doting and worrisome and affectionate nature of Mary the mother of Jesus. Jesus in Paper 177 is explaining his impression, when for instance at age five "he realises that his parents do not know everything," [123:3.2] literally such an innocent & safe development that allowed him to perceive actual omniscience. Could Jesus have been reflecting on his own childhood experiences?

Okay these questions I have thought about for a minute. I want to say first, about my idea of "Shiva and Shakti" i.e. the Indian Representation of Yang and Yin. With the myth of Ganesh, there is the tendency of Shiva to be so active so as to have almost no visible presence in the life of the child at the beginning first stages of life.

When James was mature enough to handle the affairs of his father's household, he gradually withdrew so that his younger siblings could shoulder more responsibility. Mary grew used to his being away from home. This is like how the First Source and Center withdrew His Presence from Paradise after the creation of the Central Universe. The Universal Father's spiritual identities are all held in reserves by the Eternal Mother Son, and a eventuational being who came from Paradise might even have such a similar tutelage, being that the First Source and Center in the experience of post-ultimate Reality, relationsihp that would contain mystery and unfathomable codependency.

It is like saying, going into [48:6.6], that we might have to rely on our impression of Paradise/the grand universe from the Second Source and Center. The First Source and Center delegated fully these spiritual identities, and if we rely on Paradise or life in order to have a material existence, grow to recognise truthful facts, then mota or a child's impressions of the universe, from the rational or philosophical point of view, would have a lot to do with the Second Source and Center.

So the idea of impressions in my view, is not that the mother is required to actually "explain" anything, but that impressions are given in a sense from the mores of the home, the conditions and the attitude of the mother. The father is required to explain things to a child from a rational point of view in later stages, but the impressions that a mother gives to a child go deeper than that in terms of the developmental psyche of a child. Think about the prerational precognitive instincts shared on an emotional level within families, as far as how perception builds off of these basic values before any rational application of thoughts or ideas.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm +0000
Posts: 175
Location: Left Coast
I believe my point was that for every religious generated question (a 6th Adjutant religious impulse) God the father is the answer. If the answer is other than religious then it is a philosophic answer from God the mother (7th Adjutant philosophic or wisdom impulse).
I was trying to imagine a link or pattern here that condescends this from whats explained in 46:6 to the earthly family within the context of Jesus discussion with John.
Simply put: the father gives the child religion (the truths of eternity) and the mother philosophy (the facts of time).
There is no such thing as the truths of time and the facts of eternity.
If we don’t get it here the seraphic recorders will see that we get it on a Mansion world.
Was Jesus revealing something about Mansonia to John? Didn’t John receive a vision of mansonia?
I don’t believe Jesus was giving John a lesson in astronomy.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 247
no sophist wrote:
Simply put: the father gives the child religion (the truths of eternity) and the mother philosophy (the facts of time).


What does the Holy Spirit do?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
katroofjebus wrote:
no sophist wrote:
Simply put: the father gives the child religion (the truths of eternity) and the mother philosophy (the facts of time).


What does the Holy Spirit do?


I thought Mom was the Holy Spirit and delivered mind for thinking and understanding and unifying philosophy?

And I certainly agree that John's vision was not a lesson in astronomy or the archetectural spheres but this vision was some form of spiritization aid and magnification of personal affirmation...truth assurance. Personal revelation delivers 'truth' and truth 'assurance'...facts and knowledge come by science and epochal revelation I think.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun May 12, 2019 6:11 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
To the children of time, the Holy Spirit and adjutants (ministries of the Mother Spirit) delivers the first personal religious experience- an awareness of the presence of the "other than me" person, a connection of urge and satisfaction, and a connection of nourishment, nurture, safety, belonging, and..... assurance!! Precisely exhibited by human mothers especially and most mammalian mothers by pure instinct and universe reality pattern (which science and knowledge correct over time I think).

But the Third Source and Center also delivers the circiutry of mind whereby the personality discovers, learns, discerns, chooses, and integrates facts and truth, develops the harmoniizing philosophy and metaphysical perspective of reality.

Or so I understand.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
SEla_Kelly wrote:
no sophist wrote:
Me restating:
177:2.5 For more than an hour Jesus and John continued this discussion of home life. The Master went on to explain to John how a child is wholly dependent on his parents and the associated home life for all his early concepts of everything intellectual, social, moral, and even spiritual since the family represents to the young child all that he can first know of either human or divine relationships. The child must derive his first impressions of the universe from the mother’s care; he is wholly dependent on the earthly father for his first ideas of the heavenly Father. The child’s subsequent life is made happy or unhappy, easy or difficult, in accordance with his early mental and emotional life, conditioned by these social and spiritual relationships of the home. A human being’s entire afterlife is enormously influenced by what happens during the first few years of existence.

why Jesus would mention the “universe” to a first century Jew??? And in connection to a mother???
What was Jesus referring to when he used the term “universe”
Why would a first century mother be asked to explain the “universe” to her child??


Jesus quote above takes me to the paper on Morontia life and our first exposure to the Mansion worlds and what we will be taught: we are told that we pick up there exactly where we leave off here and one of the first lessons to learn if we missed it is family. Learning to raise children.

And now for the pattern I see:

Try to be unpack this quote from paper 48:

48:6.6 These angels are all in the chain of recorders extending from the lowest to the highest custodians of the facts of time and the truths of eternity. Some day they will teach you to seek truth as well as fact, to expand your soul as well as your mind. Even now you should learn to water the garden of your heart as well as to seek for the dry sands of knowledge. Forms are valueless when lessons are learned. No chick may be had without the shell, and no shell is of any worth after the chick is hatched.

What does this teacher mean by the facts of time and the truths of eternity???
What does this teacher mean by expanding your soul as well as your mind??

Any of the above do you think would answer a religious question directed to God the father? Nope, all philosophic.


First let me say that the concept of the universe is nothing new haha. In connection to a mother is entirely poignant since there is a true empathetic bond growing from the codependency of an embryo, before even what most people think of as an infant. Inside of a shell, inside of a womb, there is a habitat for an individual creature to gestate and form. This represent the world to infant consciousness, growing up in total peace and darkness until the universe would beckon that creature to open its eyes. When creature opens its eyes for the first time, just like the duckling imprinting on other creatures as if he is the mother, like in the Dr. Seuss comic "Are you my mother?"

What Jesus may be referring to in tUB 177 is "123:2.9 4. The period of dependence on the mother, lasting up to the end of the fifth year."

I also feel strongly that a home should have just as much safety and protection as ought a living being receives protection, and so the story of Miriam having a crib is very touching to me. But when you see that Joseph, like Shiva, too busy working, not present to attend the internal affairs of a home, then you can magnify what might seem, in the perception of the child, as the presence of the mother, maybe in the way that Urantia Papers IV explains the doting and worrisome and affectionate nature of Mary the mother of Jesus. Jesus in Paper 177 is explaining his impression, when for instance at age five "he realises that his parents do not know everything," [123:3.2] literally such an innocent & safe development that allowed him to perceive actual omniscience. Could Jesus have been reflecting on his own childhood experiences?

Okay these questions I have thought about for a minute. I want to say first, about my idea of "Shiva and Shakti" i.e. the Indian Representation of Yang and Yin. With the myth of Ganesh, there is the tendency of Shiva to be so active so as to have almost no visible presence in the life of the child at the beginning first stages of life.

When James was mature enough to handle the affairs of his father's household, he gradually withdrew so that his younger siblings could shoulder more responsibility. Mary grew used to his being away from home. This is like how the First Source and Center withdrew His Presence from Paradise after the creation of the Central Universe. The Universal Father's spiritual identities are all held in reserves by the Eternal Mother Son, and a eventuational being who came from Paradise might even have such a similar tutelage, being that the First Source and Center in the experience of post-ultimate Reality, relationsihp that would contain mystery and unfathomable codependency.

It is like saying, going into [48:6.6], that we might have to rely on our impression of Paradise/the grand universe from the Second Source and Center. The First Source and Center delegated fully these spiritual identities, and if we rely on Paradise or life in order to have a material existence, grow to recognise truthful facts, then mota or a child's impressions of the universe, from the rational or philosophical point of view, would have a lot to do with the Second Source and Center.

So the idea of impressions in my view, is not that the mother is required to actually "explain" anything, but that impressions are given in a sense from the mores of the home, the conditions and the attitude of the mother. The father is required to explain things to a child from a rational point of view in later stages, but the impressions that a mother gives to a child go deeper than that in terms of the developmental psyche of a child. Think about the prerational precognitive instincts shared on an emotional level within families, as far as how perception builds off of these basic values before any rational application of thoughts or ideas.


No matter how we beg or demand....still no supporting text to justify these many contradictions imposed upon us here...just claim whatever beliefs and fictions and inventions of ignorance you wish. Sigh...

Shiva? Really??!! You don't understand yin and yang, do you? The duality of the human nature as expressive of the opposition, intersection, and harmonization of the spiritual and material...nothing maternal/paternal. God most certainly did not nor has not withdrawn "his presence from Paradise" and none of the Father's identities are"held in reserve by the Second Source and Center" whatever that might mean. These are but a few of the fictional inventions of Stephen posted above.

See 4:1.6, 4:4.2, 11:1.1, 11:1.4

Once again, Stephen is willing and allowed to declare and proclaim fictions and falsehoods as if true.

:-s


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon May 13, 2019 9:15 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 247
fanofVan wrote:
I thought Mom was the Holy Spirit and delivered mind for thinking and understanding and unifying philosophy?


Are you saying that the Holy Spirit serves the same function as the adjutants even though she is superadjutant?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I thought Mom was the Holy Spirit and delivered mind for thinking and understanding and unifying philosophy?


Are you saying that the Holy Spirit serves the same function as the adjutants even though she is superadjutant?


I am saying the Third Source and Center is the source of mind and not all creature mind is adjutant connected, is it? Neither is all mortal discernment, insight, intuition, and philosophy adjutant delivered...I do not think. But appreciate all clarification.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 247
fanofVan wrote:
I am saying the Third Source and Center is the source of mind and not all creature mind is adjutant connected, is it?


I guess it depends on how you define "creature". Are primary midwayers creatures?

fanofVan wrote:
Neither is all mortal discernment, insight, intuition, and philosophy adjutant delivered...I do not think. But appreciate all clarification.


Again, much is determined on how you define "mortal" and what type of insight and philosophy you're referring to.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
I am saying the Third Source and Center is the source of mind and not all creature mind is adjutant connected, is it?


I guess it depends on how you define "creature". Are primary midwayers creatures?

fanofVan wrote:
Neither is all mortal discernment, insight, intuition, and philosophy adjutant delivered...I do not think. But appreciate all clarification.


Again, much is determined on how you define "mortal" and what type of insight and philosophy you're referring to.


And the source of mind is? And I understand the definition of creatures in the UB is all beings born or created in time and space that are mortal, celestial, or midwayer. You?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 247
fanofVan wrote:
And I understand the definition of creatures in the UB is all beings born or created in time and space that are mortal, celestial, or midwayer. You?


Yet the Urantia Book refers to the perfect residents of Havona as creatures, and they were not "born or created in time and space". It seems when it comes to personality, any personality who is not a Creator is a creature. So I agree, not all creature mind is adjutant connected.

But my question was in regards to the statement of yours below in response to my question concerning the role of the Holy Spirit. no sophist claims that God the Father is responsible for religion, or the "truths of eternity" and God the Mother is responsible for philosophy, or the "facts of time". The Holy Spirit, a mother spirit, is not directly concerned with philosophy, a job given to the Spirit of Truth.

fanofVan wrote:
I thought Mom was the Holy Spirit and delivered mind for thinking and understanding and unifying philosophy?


To which I replied, attempting to delineate the difference between adjutant and superadjuant mind ministries::

katroofjebus wrote:
Are you saying that the Holy Spirit serves the same function as the adjutants even though she is superadjutant?


Then, you went a step further with this next reply which seems to equate the Holy Spirit with the Third Source and Center, which is not true.

fanofVan wrote:
I am saying the Third Source and Center is the source of mind and not all creature mind is adjutant connected, is it? Neither is all mortal discernment, insight, intuition, and philosophy adjutant delivered...I do not think. But appreciate all clarification.


I then asked what type of insight and philosophy you are referring to, since there are adjutant and superadjutant levels of each, and your answer was:

fanofVan wrote:
And the source of mind is?


Which makes no sense at all. Again I'll ask, what's the role of the Holy Spirit in regards to the "truths of eternity" and the "facts of time"? Is the Holy Spirit, being the personal presence of the local universe Divine Spirit, only concerned about the "facts of time"? Does she play no role at all in revealing the "truths of eternity"?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 247
I would also like to furnish this reference to the discussion:

(938.8 ) 84:6.4 Women seem to have more intuition than men, but they also appear to be somewhat less logical. Woman, however, has always been the moral standard-bearer and the spiritual leader of mankind. The hand that rocks the cradle still fraternizes with destiny.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 689
Location: Nanticoke NY
"But my question was in regards to the statement of yours below in response to my question concerning the role of the Holy Spirit. no sophist claims that God the Father is responsible for religion, or the "truths of eternity" and God the Mother is responsible for philosophy, or the "facts of time". The Holy Spirit, a mother spirit, is not directly concerned with philosophy, a job given to the Spirit of Truth."
That is good because it seems to express what no sophist tried to explain. But I think that the association between human philosophy and the adjutant spirit ministry of the Divine Minister is real and valid, as he suggesting.

And Holy Spirit is the phrase I used to describe "the encachement of all received into the human mind from The Third Source and Center." I believe that Bradley is correct by connecting this concept in the manner he had.

"a truthful fact" an idea that can be worked at until it becomes an ethical principal, or an aphorism. But yes the Urantia Book gives facts an association with finitude and time, and truth an association of supernal reality and eternity. But thanks for emphasis and clarification.

Might Jesus have been explaining the actual nature of morontial reality to John; that is hard to disagree with. But if a man is spiritually reborn, what does this imply for his relationship, his dependence on the mother for impression of the universe? with the Divine Minister, or even the Cosmic Mind?

That is a good link to the text you share, but all of this now that I consider this topic, a good one from no sophist, I will consider it in relationship to the fact that even Jesus did not have the tutelage of the Father Fragment, during this early developmental stage, which magnifies the obligations that every human mother should realise, in terms of moral obligations within the home.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3067
The boy Jesus received his Adjuster at age 5 years and 6 months. And since his death, this is the approximate age when children receive this ministry of truth and personal revelation of the Father Fragment and Son's Spirit. As I recall. Interestingly it was the traditional age for a Jewish boy to leave the mother's care for the father's tutelage.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm +0000
Posts: 175
Location: Left Coast
“I believe my point was that for every religious generated question (a 6th Adjutant religious impulse) God the father is the answer. If the answer is other than religious then it is a philosophic answer from God the mother (7th Adjutant philosophic or wisdom impulse).”

Changing this to “God being responsible for “ kind of alters what I had in mind.
But I can understand how that came about. No problem.
My intent was to find a pattern, a common thread, something that Jesus was teaching John that links with other parts of the revelation like I thought I found in 48:6
Family, raising children is such an important experience and if we choose survival, we must experience it here or it will be the first lesson on the first Mansion world.

I’ll add this: Jesus taught the Lord’s Prayer : “oh God the eternal father”. We pray to God the father. I don’t know how to pray to God the Mother but I have an idea how to respond to her. In fact, the human race knew little or nothing about her until she was revealed in the 5th epochal revelation.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 29 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group