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 Post subject: Notre Dame
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Joined: Wed Oct 17, 2018 4:14 pm +0000
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Sad to witness such a catastrophe and loss of history.
I can’t help but be interested in how people respond.
Its interesting that a growing secular country desires to rebuild the structure and I can’t help but imagine how that will manifest upon completion. The finished product of a 21’st century secular effort compared with the efforts of 9th or 10th century religionists.
What does the loss of relics mean to people is interesting reading in the news.
The headlines say the worlds most valuable item rescued is Jesus crown of thorns. What do you think about that?
I believe that there are still a small population of Free Masons in existence that could be employed to do the restoration work but how many skills have been lost in the past 900 years.
What does the incident mean to you?

Personally - I would love to be part of the restoration as a builder/craftsman/student/hands on worker. What a wonderful project that will be. I’ll have to be content to just observe an ocean away.
Won’t live long enough anywaysorry to say.
As a piano tech, I also have experience with servicing pipe organs. I mourn the damage or loss of this more than a crown of thorns.
Anyone want to give their thoughts?


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 Post subject: Re: Notre Dame
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Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
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Not only the Crown of Thorns supposive miraculous artifact, but also there were a few other things collected, mainly statues of the likeness of the Apostles. Like I have said, even if the temple of Jesus is destroyed, the instructions that Jesus gave to his Apostles must live on in fathers everywhere.

The idea that the Twin Towers or the Chapel of Notre Dame can simply be "rebuilt", is an impossibility, a notion beyond absurdity.

I do not know how people react, but my dad told me the same thing: "France is a very secular country". But I am unsure about your analysis: I thought that in France, God is so real that people take monotheism for granted. A people who have a tradition of cursing under their breath, in my view, cannot be considered secular. God is so much a part of French national history that people take secularity of the western society, per se, as a foundational humanist tenet, from a constitutuency of believers who recognise the unity of the universal father, or God the Father. In the history of France, we find the philosophical joust of "the secular" is not a declaration of atheism, but a declaration of defiance against God (to defy what is known by the intellect about the nature of God), in the quest for the actualisation of will in man. In other words, "liberty, egality, and fraternity", as secular goals, and it is well-accepted, cannot be achieved without God's Will, and human's zeal to achieve such goals in the moral imperative, "in the best way that one knows how".

There is so much shock: wow we cannot cling to traditions in the same way anymore; wow that Notre Dame Cathedral was such a reassuring symbol of stability; wow France is becoming a truly cosmopolitan state! The treasures & archives will soon be forgotten by the populace of France.

But in the modern age, you can compare accidental tragedies to crimes. You can say, "oh but no one died". You can say, "there were more people who died at the mosque in ChristChurch New Zealand, than who were burned in the Chapel of Notre Dame." In this sense, you know that such Chapel is a relic of a former era, and you cannot compare the lost artifacts used in ceremonial consecrations, to the loss of an actual living person. So then the real issue becomes apparent: why do French people sit back and watch agaped, curiously, marvellingly, when the national symbol of their religious tradition burns to the ground in one night.

And with any idea of a "new Cathedral": it seems tragically out of place. We want a meeting ground for socialisation; communities want to congregate in one place, in order to share worship and the news of the week. Once the symbol of solidarity, in the form of the Notre Dame Cathedral, is actually gone, we find that these needs become more tangible, more apparent, "will be bubbling to the surface of human interests and intents."

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 Post subject: Re: Notre Dame
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no sophist wrote:
I believe that there are still a small population of Free Masons in existence that could be employed to do the restoration work but how many skills have been lost in the past 900 years.
What does the incident mean to you?


Quote:
The process of stonemasonry has not changed much over the centuries. In fact the biggest difference is that the masons of old worked mostly by eye, while today they use many tools, including computer programs, to ensure proper measurement. Other differences can be seen in the tools the craftsmen use. Back in Norman times, axes were used in place of the chisel.


source: Keeping alive the art of stonemasonry and England’s cathedrals

notre dame was 3-d laser scanned for a video game so they have the measurements. the ancient dried out oak timbers that burned, and the lead roof that melted can be replaced with superior materials.

it doesn't mean a lot to me other than impressive laborious architecture but for the french people it would be like the statue of liberty or some other historic symbolic structure burning here so i'm glad they were able to save it from the worst and it's sounding like maybe they'll have the funds needed to do a lot more work than what had been funded before so it'll all work out imo

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The headlines say the worlds most valuable item rescued is Jesus crown of thorns. What do you think about that?


i have to admit wishing the fire would rid them of the "relics" but really it's the superstitious belief in them that the church needs to be rid of and that, like it's construction, takes generations and can't be changed overnight.


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“The idea that the Twin Towers or the Chapel of Notre Dame can simply be "rebuilt", is an impossibility, a notion beyond absurdity. “

Well, maybe. Much depends on motivation and vision of an end product.
Also, big difference between rebuild and restore.

In the piano world I do both. Restorations attempt to bring a 100 year old instrument to original condition but rebuilds are better.
Original condition usually means recreating many of the same mistakes builders made 100 years ago.
Rebuild uses design criteria and materials that have evolved and improved so that a custom rebuild appears like the original but outperforms and in many ways superior.

You really think Frenchies are generally religious? I think the only people going to churches these days like Notre Dame are the clergy.

However, there were obviously other religionists that cheered as the cathedral burned. Maybe that’s the non secular nature of the country?


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the twin towers weren't really damaged...stone vault in the chapel collapsed a couple places...and just because church attendance in france is low doesn't mean it's an irreligious country. ub readers should know better than that...nothing wrong with religion becoming more personal and less institutionalized.

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An Ipsos/MORI poll in 2011 showed that 45% of French people claim to be Christians - most of them Catholics - while 35% claimed to have no religion, and just 3% proclaimed themselves as Muslims.


all of those people on the streets singing hymns from memory didnt learn the words on MTV


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 Post subject: Re: Notre Dame
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Makalu wrote:
the twin towers weren't really damaged...stone vault in the chapel collapsed a couple places...and just because church attendance in france is low doesn't mean it's an irreligious country. ub readers should know better than that...nothing wrong with religion becoming more personal and less institutionalized.

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An Ipsos/MORI poll in 2011 showed that 45% of French people claim to be Christians - most of them Catholics - while 35% claimed to have no religion, and just 3% proclaimed themselves as Muslims.


all of those people on the streets singing hymns from memory didnt learn the words on MTV


Putting it back together will be a great national project. May even help draw more to God.


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Putting it back together will be a great national project. May even help draw more to God.


Yes, I think so too. Sometimes there's nothing like a tremendous loss in our lives to really invigorate and clarify what is most valuable and worthy of valuing.

I'm fortunate to have wandered all around and inside the cathedral and was completely captivated and inspired by the experience of being there. I didn't want to leave. It's almost as if it was a supermortal effort to bring supernatural beauty into this world during the hundreds of years of its construction. The Goths who designed the cathedral walk this earth no longer. But hopefully the drives inside the people of France and the rest of the world are no less motivated by the attempt to put something at least humanly divine back into this world.


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