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My main objection to Christianity is the idea of sinning in your brain. It is a sin to look upon somebody with sexual desire. It is a sin to have hateful thoughts towards somebody. At least that is what I've been taught.

When it comes to sexual desire, the Bible sets us all up to fail. Everybody masturbates. One study I came across on the Internet says EVERYBODY has looked upon pornography. And then there is wet dreams. I cannot speak for women as I am not one.

As for hate; I know the beauty of forgiveness and that holding on to resentment does you no good, but having moments of anger where you have fantasies of violence are but fleeting moments. That should not be held against you where you need to accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus (an idea which the Urantia Book corrects) in order for you to be forgiven.


Thoughts of hate and lust are only temporary for most people and don't overwhelm the mind and translate into actions (violence and rape). So why should having those thoughts be held against you?

Does the Urantia Book teach the concept of thought crime? I understand that the thought adjuster does not attach negative experiences or thoughts with it to the next life. So hate and lust will fall away when you ascend. If you don't accumulate enough positive experiences, thoughts and spiritual awareness in life, your personality will not survive. That was what I picked up in the first five papers somewhere (correct me if I misunderstood). My understanding is that there is no thought crime. The only crime is not accumulating positive thoughts.


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the urantia book definitions...from Jesus' training the evangelists:

Quote:
Make clear in your mind these different attitudes toward the Father and his universe. Never forget these laws of relation to the Father’s will:

148:4.3 (1660.2) “Evil is the unconscious or unintended transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Evil is likewise the measure of the imperfectness of obedience to the Father’s will.

148:4.4 (1660.3) “Sin is the conscious, knowing, and deliberate transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Sin is the measure of unwillingness to be divinely led and spiritually directed.

148:4.5 (1660.4) “Iniquity is the willful, determined, and persistent transgression of the divine law, the Father’s will. Iniquity is the measure of the continued rejection of the Father’s loving plan of personality survival and the Sons’ merciful ministry of salvation.


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William S. wrote:
My main objection to Christianity is the idea of sinning in your brain. It is a sin to look upon somebody with sexual desire. It is a sin to have hateful thoughts towards somebody. At least that is what I've been taught.

When it comes to sexual desire, the Bible sets us all up to fail. Everybody masturbates. One study I came across on the Internet says EVERYBODY has looked upon pornography. And then there is wet dreams. I cannot speak for women as I am not one.

As for hate; I know the beauty of forgiveness and that holding on to resentment does you no good, but having moments of anger where you have fantasies of violence are but fleeting moments. That should not be held against you where you need to accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus (an idea which the Urantia Book corrects) in order for you to be forgiven.


Thoughts of hate and lust are only temporary for most people and don't overwhelm the mind and translate into actions (violence and rape). So why should having those thoughts be held against you?

Does the Urantia Book teach the concept of thought crime? I understand that the thought adjuster does not attach negative experiences or thoughts with it to the next life. So hate and lust will fall away when you ascend. If you don't accumulate enough positive experiences, thoughts and spiritual awareness in life, your personality will not survive. That was what I picked up in the first five papers somewhere (correct me if I misunderstood). My understanding is that there is no thought crime. The only crime is not accumulating positive thoughts.


What the Urantia revelation does make clear are the concepts of evil, sin and iniquity. You will come to that as you study the text. Try reading paper 54:01
Personally, I would focus more on your ideals and doing Gods will and what that involves and how it impacts your decisions in life and the lives of the people that you encounter.
Hate, lust, revenge, prejudice, ignorance, intolerance, etc are mind poisons. If you dwell on them you cut yourself off from spirit.
The Gods neither create evil nor tolerate sin.
Self mastery is a process, something all of us must work on every day. No-one is unique in this respect.
Prayer helps.


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140:6.5 (1576.5) “You have heard the teachers of the law say, ‘You shall not commit adultery.’ But I say to you that every man who looks upon a woman with intent to lust after her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. You can only judge men by their acts, but my Father looks into the hearts of his children and in mercy adjudges them in accordance with their intents and real desires.”

Taught the Master!

As no-sophist says above: "Hate, lust, revenge, prejudice, ignorance, intolerance, etc are mind poisons. If you dwell on them you cut yourself off from spirit."

We are (or become) what we think about. There's a universal law that is accepted by all religions and philosophers alike - "we reap what we sow". If in our minds we sow the seeds of hate, lust, revenge, fear, what then do you expect to harvest from such seed sowing? Can we expect to harvest the fruits of the Spirit by the sowing of such seed? Nope.

What are the motives and intentions that determine our decisions and choices? Of course that is the measure of our progress in the Spirit.

The Master taught that it is our thoughts, motives, intentions, and priorities....rather than our actions as limited and defined by the laws of religion or morality that actually determines our worthiness. We can fake compliance with the law of behavior but we cannot fake the laws of motive...or seed sowing. For our minds and soul and very being are defined and determined by our thoughts and the nature and source of our thoughts. Do we think with our baser animal minds or with our tempered idealistic and spirit connected mind?

Great Topic!!

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I think it's important to remember that mind is a level of reality. Serviceablity of thought is determined by its attunement with reality. Not all thought is attuned to reality, not attracted to mind gravity, therefore not serviceable to the universe. We are here to learn how to do that, how to attune our thoughts to reality, obviously with adjustments from the Father Fragment, with fostering reality reflexes from the Holy Spirit and shepherding guidance along the living way from the Spirit of Truth.

Evil thinking is imperfect, immature thinking. Evil thoughts are not real and will not result in anything self-sustaining or self-fulfilling because they are not serviceable to the universe and therefore not survivable. Thoughts have consequences, they determine the nature of the inner character. Inability to control thoughts which one has already learned are not serviceabile is a sign of immaturity, a lack of self-mastery.

The purpose of this life is to mature and gain mastery over oneself, particularly the mind and the mouth. Actions are influenced by thoughts, therefore one should keep watch over them. But the best advice is from Jesus who recommended developing an interest in higher thinking, to actually fall in love with reality itself, which will eventually supplant all that is not serviceable in the mind and heart. Said Jesus:

(1738.4) 156:5.5 But let me warn you against the folly of undertaking to surmount temptation by the effort of supplanting one desire by another and supposedly superior desire through the mere force of the human will. If you would be truly triumphant over the temptations of the lesser and lower nature, you must come to that place of spiritual advantage where you have really and truly developed an actual interest in, and love for, those higher and more idealistic forms of conduct which your mind is desirous of substituting for these lower and less idealistic habits of behavior that you recognize as temptation. You will in this way be delivered through spiritual transformation rather than be increasingly overburdened with the deceptive suppression of mortal desires. The old and the inferior will be forgotten in the love for the new and the superior. Beauty is always triumphant over ugliness in the hearts of all who are illuminated by the love of truth. There is mighty power in the expulsive energy of a new and sincere spiritual affection. And again I say to you, be not overcome by evil but rather overcome evil with good.

(1745:1) 157:2.2 And there can be no peace in the heart or progress in the mind unless you fall wholeheartedly in love with truth, the ideals of eternal realities.


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William S. wrote:
My main objection to Christianity is the idea of sinning in your brain. It is a sin to look upon somebody with sexual desire. It is a sin to have hateful thoughts towards somebody. At least that is what I've been taught.

When it comes to sexual desire, the Bible sets us all up to fail. Everybody masturbates. One study I came across on the Internet says EVERYBODY has looked upon pornography. And then there is wet dreams. I cannot speak for women as I am not one.

As for hate; I know the beauty of forgiveness and that holding on to resentment does you no good, but having moments of anger where you have fantasies of violence are but fleeting moments. That should not be held against you where you need to accept the blood sacrifice of Jesus (an idea which the Urantia Book corrects) in order for you to be forgiven.


Thoughts of hate and lust are only temporary for most people and don't overwhelm the mind and translate into actions (violence and rape). So why should having those thoughts be held against you?

Does the Urantia Book teach the concept of thought crime? I understand that the thought adjuster does not attach negative experiences or thoughts with it to the next life. So hate and lust will fall away when you ascend. If you don't accumulate enough positive experiences, thoughts and spiritual awareness in life, your personality will not survive. That was what I picked up in the first five papers somewhere (correct me if I misunderstood). My understanding is that there is no thought crime. The only crime is not accumulating positive thoughts.


William - this is quite a stew of concepts and presumptions that really need a bit of untangling I think. You appear to equate wet dreams, masturbation, sexual desire, lust, and pornography, as if all of these have elements in common or are essentially the same. I suggest a reading of Paper 82 The Evolution of Marriage for a comprehensive discussion on the human sex urge, its origins and its progressive evolution over time into social mores and morality. It is not sexual acts which determine the meaning or value but the motive and intent which manages and controls our expression of sexuality that determines the mastery of self by our will and mind.

Spiritual people are not sexless people. But their physical urges do not control their choices or behaviors either. Sex is not anti-spirit or evil or sin or iniquity. Sex is sex. A knife is a knife, capable of great things or horrible things - it is the motive and intentions and the skills and experience of the hand which holds the knife that determines the knife's work, worth, and morality. Our sexual urges can lead to an affectionate sharing and caring act of expression or it can lead to a beastly taking and imposing of brute force domination of one over another without regard to the wishes and value of another. The difference is rather profound I think to all parties. The question as to how casual sex can be between consenting parties is an interesting question itself. What then is the meaning and value?

As to masturbation....sex with oneself does not cause blindness (as I was warned once upon a time) and many educated people who should have an informed opinion claim it to be quite natural and harmless. Social morals and mores are quite fluid according to the UB and sexual behaviors that are consensual between adults without domination of will do not seem to be critically examined to any determinate degree in the UB so far as I can tell. The sex urge is very real and is created with purpose and function we are taught. But exploitation and domination by one over another to any degree would be evil and sinful as it would always result in a victim and a victimizer....or so I understand. And any mental or behavioral choices which are disloyal or a betrayal of trust or deceitful in any way would also be immature evil and potentially sinful with real repercussions to face.

You make two other interesting points above, fascinating really: First when you say "the Bible sets us all up to fail", you refer to original sin which we know is a falsehood. But, according to the UB, we do have two natures - the material and the spiritual. We are to transfer the very seat of our personal identity from the one to the other. We are to experientially evolve from imperfection to perfection over time during the eternal adventures to come. So we are definitely not born perfect. Nor are we perfected by some mortal beliefs or ceremonies or by death or by resurrection. So in a way, life is about overcoming failure and imperfection by discerning the greater over the lesser and better over the inferior and choosing the greater and the better to learn and grow and improve and perfect. Do you suggest it is okay to embrace the lesser and inferior simply because we can? What then would be the point in life but self amusement and self indulgence and self serving choices like the animal kingdom from which we spring forth as beings who can discern right from wrong and transcend and transform our selves and live forever?

Finally, you seem to infer that our progress and survival is a matter of some ledger or scale where the good must simply outweigh the bad in this life. But this is not true at all. One may be bad, even sinful, for an entire life but if redemption comes by sincere repentance late in life and the mind and heart reach for God in hope and faith, then such a one will survive this life. But if one embraces evil knowingly and this sin becomes sufficiently endearing and enduring to mind, one may become lost beyond recovery by taking survival for granted and turning one's back on the truth and fact that we either progress or we regress by every choice we make. This is not something to trifle with or take lightly. We are motivated by love of God and love of others OR we are motivated by love of self. Which is it? We cannot hide this choice from God. We all make this choice. It is not our behaviors which save us or condemn us but the motives for and the intentions behind our behaviors are what save or condemn us.

Our choices have consequences...either good ones or painful ones. This is the law of the universe. We are free to choose and decide but we are not free from the results of our free will...we will, always, reap what we sow! We cannot deny or excuse the fact and function of the repercussions of motive, intention, priority, choice, and decision. This is precisely how we are measured in our progress in the Spirit and upon the road to Paradise.

Again - Great topic!

Bradly 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Wed Apr 03, 2019 5:06 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Wow! That indeed is a lot to take in! OK...

Forgive me for not addressing anyone directly, but it seems thought crime is a very real thing in the UB. Now I'll try my best to address and clarify things.

I agree that it is a waste of a life to live life accumulating only negative thoughts and experiences. I agree we should conquer our minds from hate, lust and all other negative thoughts and emotions. BUT... doing so is a process. It is a vow and a challenge you give yourself to become better. It is in other words an adventure!

Conquering and letting go of negative thoughts whether they translate into actions or not, is a service to yourself if you'll forgive me for saying so rather than a service to others. Which means nobody should be allowed to tell you how to think (priests and pastors).

What I specifically take issue with in the Bible is that it is put on your record of which you need answer to in the future and that the only answer is to accept the sacrifice of Jesus. That is just wrong. Conquering bad thoughts is a challenge and a process for this life. You should be given praise for choosing to conquer your negative thoughts and NOT to be judged for having them in the first place.

There is a lot more for me to process and I might make more posts but that is all on my mind right now.


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fanofVan wrote:
It is not our behaviors which save us or condemn us but the motives for and the intentions behind our behaviors are what save or condemn us.


So am I correct in saying then that actions are merely the expression of the real problem that is our intentions and motives (our thoughts)? Well I suppose that's true, but what about acting out of ignorance as opposed to selfishness or malice?

As I said in my previous post, conquering and letting go of our negative motives and intentions is a journey. Succeeding in that journey should be what saves us. We should not be condemned for having negative thoughts to begin with and then grovel for mercy.


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William S. wrote:
but what about acting out of ignorance as opposed to selfishness or malice?


If ignorance is a condemnation, then none of us would survive. By definition we are all ignorant because we are all imperfect, but ignorance alone can never prevent survival. Life is a process of striving for perfection. Sincere attempts to do the Father's will is sufficient for survival because he is a loving Father who knows we are all just beginning to learn his way. We need time. Reference:

(1206:3) 110:3.5 Confusion, being puzzled, even sometimes discouraged and distracted, does not necessarily signify resistance to the leadings of the indwelling Adjuster. Such attitudes may sometimes connote lack of active co-operation with the divine Monitor and may, therefore, somewhat delay spiritual progress, but such intellectual emotional difficulties do not in the least interfere with the certain survival of the God-knowing soul. Ignorance alone can never prevent survival; neither can confusional doubts nor fearful uncertainty. Only conscious resistance to the Adjuster's leading can prevent the survival of the evolving immortal soul.


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Thanks kat...one of my favorite and most reassuring quotes from the UB.

By the function of the reflectivity circuit, we know that God knows everything in every mind all the time and the Son's Spirit circuit weighs the sincerity and loyalty of every being. Therefore and thereby does God know each of us intimately and individually. For mortals the God Fragment knows our true progress in the Spirit prior to fusion with absolute precision. Of this we may be certain.

We are taught that by such personal and complete knowledge God understands every nuance and factor and circumstance of our lives including our motivation for and intention of every choice we make. God always knows the potential we have realized and actualized and the potential still to be realized in every life. God knows the beginning from the end and the end from the beginning and nurtures all potential with Divine love, forgiveness, patience, and mercy...personal affection.

But we do have the power for self destruction by the choices we make and the very real repercussions of choice. Careful what you wish for and think about.

Now...while there is much we mortals of Urantia are ignorant about, the Spirit within is not one of them. We all soon know of our dual nature and God within. This is natural and universal. Barbarians and children know of "the other" within and are equally connected to the circuits of personality and the spirits as all others. We can deny that reality but we cannot truly disengage from it without intentional volition or "conscious resistance".

What I mean to say is that even in ignorance we may still have religious experience and growth. Ignorance does not prevent proper motives or the experience and expression of love, truth, beauty, and goodness.

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fanofVan wrote:
By the function of the reflectivity circuit, we know that God knows everything in every mind all the time


Do you mean God the Father? I'm not disputing that God knows everything, I just don't remember God the Father using the reflectivity circuit for such knowledge, except in the case of the individual Father fragments. I've always had the understanding that it's God the Supreme who utilizes reflectivity.


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I think it's quite important though, not to confuse the normal acts of living as a human and mortal with those that actually conflict with our growth in the spiritual and in the soul. If you have a hunger for steak one evening, for example, it's highly unlikely that the indwelling spirit is going to consider that an exhibition of lust.

34:7.7 (383.1) Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion. Faith sons work on intellectual levels and live on spiritual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physical desires. The normal urges of animal beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunately overconscientious persons.

In that regard the revelators do remind us of the difference between self-maintenance and wanton self-gratification.

69:1.5 (772.8 ) The institutions of self-gratification. These are the practices growing out of vanity proclivities and pride emotions; and they embrace customs in dress and personal adornment, social usages, war for glory, dancing, amusement, games, and other phases of sensual gratification. But civilization has never evolved distinctive institutions of self-gratification.

68:2.2 (764.5) While the level of intelligence has contributed considerably to the rate of cultural progress, society is essentially designed to lessen the risk element in the individual’s mode of living, and it has progressed just as fast as it has succeeded in lessening pain and increasing the pleasure element in life. Thus does the whole social body push on slowly toward the goal of destiny—extinction or survival—depending on whether that goal is self-maintenance or self-gratification. Self-maintenance originates society, while excessive self-gratification destroys civilization.


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
By the function of the reflectivity circuit, we know that God knows everything in every mind all the time


Do you mean God the Father? I'm not disputing that God knows everything, I just don't remember God the Father using the reflectivity circuit for such knowledge, except in the case of the individual Father fragments. I've always had the understanding that it's God the Supreme who utilizes reflectivity.


The third person of The Paradise Trinity, God the Spirit, is the source and agent of reflectivity. All of Deity is connected to and is fully informed by reflectivity so far as I understand.

All minds may "utilize" reflectivity and many do so for many reasons. The contents of all minds everywhere are archived and remain available eternally for recall and utilization by all authorized parties. Paradise is the central switch board for reflectivity and all mind content flows to Deity but Deity controls and determins all subsequent transmission.

See 13.1:10

A wonderful topic. I started a discussion in Q&A....How Does God Know Everything?

viewtopic.php?f=11&t=5432


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William S. wrote:
Thoughts of hate and lust are only temporary for most people and don't overwhelm the mind and translate into actions (violence and rape). So why should having those thoughts be held against you?


I do not agree with this perspective which is suggested in the introduction of the topic. "only temporary" is not an attitude which is considered acceptible in any religious perspective. Within Buddhist connotation, what is done once is an example of a pattern that could be imbellished or applied to other forms. Therefore, Jesus' symbolic washing of the Apostles' feet, and the way he only wrote into the sand, is the idea that Creator Son Michael is the one, in eventuality, who can "wash our feet".

Religiously, we can consider that the human individual's footprints can have a quality "heavy, or light". Impact of the footprints on the planet, just like impact of thoughts on others. How do your thoughts affecting the people in your family? How do you relate to the perception of other individuals, friends and strangers? In my life, I always witness the impact of the things I do good and bad, universal or prideful, in the lives of others who I am closest to. In the sense that I resonate energy and patterns maybe even thoughts and ideas and images, within a universe that is not my own, I am accepting of all blame, in the sense what others bring back to me is really the results of my own doing, sometimes. This makes me feel so sollemn, remorsefull, and not even self-pitying, but maybe self-abnegating: the realisation to need to put others' needs above anything I might call my own. Not only have I sinned, but I have created traps for others also to sin. How can I do anything to solve this puzzle I have created: I must plea to God and for providence to help me set things in place once again.

Footprints versus thoughts: each step you take deliberately is an action, telling the instruction manual of your own experiences. But only the steps of relevence: are that which leads to becoming more like the Supreme Being. Again, maybe Creator Son Michael can bring the Spirit of Truth to remove false steps, nonprogressive deliberate actions, codified logical inefficiencies, unfair economic resource-dynamics, and help with the way children might learn "increasingly productive habits" which they may choose themselves.

Masturbate it means something different for each person, most people interpret this "to play with one's self", which in some cases refers to innocent flights of imagination, whereas there are many socially derived implicative connotations. If you are interested in the way children play, you should be reminded that Jesusonian perspective of "socialization" includes more group activities. Most people in this group will emphasize the benefits of shared work-load, honesty approach, and the joy of serving God in the example of Jesus. Now we are assaulted and condemned with the riddle of how to extricate the negative and anti-social patterns of logic. However, one must be led out of perdition in order to gain the stance necessary in order to teach others, which is why religion stands as a testimony between the psyche and the Adjuster, to negotiate the most ample path of human-spiritual ascencion-descent.



In the original post, "William S" declares moral condonation for this activity, or states that "everyone masturbates", and I cannot identify any proper meaning from this, and I am only staggered by how such declaration is as an accusation upon everyone in society.

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Once the modality of psychoanalysis was dominated by the symbolism of the "Confessional: at the rear of the church", where the Priest, or Psychiatrist, would listen through a screen," when any person could visit during a certain hour of the week, to be heard. There is an immeasurable gulf between the pattern of then, versus now, since often enough psychoanalysis is not performed in a private booth, but in an era of exhibitionism "grievances are heired publicly", brother against mother, sister against brother. And there remain separate dynamics between impressions and ideas which exist within the public sphere, reputation, and avenues of opportunity which may follow: the mitigation of trauma happens privately and experiencially over time. One cannot hope to obtain solace by increasing/heaping the blame upon other parties. When there are accusations, we need to know the truth of such accusation, and not be preoccupied with false or "packaged guilt", "packaged psychosis", in other words imitative behaviours which mimic the symptoms of actual events which have been linked to experiencial trauma.

I have the opinion that God would be immensely spurrious of symptoms which mimic merely the appearance of these trauma-type behaviours often called afflictions, whereas God would want to help me actually heal the trauma that I have inflicted upon society and in other individuals. But I want to know the truth: have I done good in this universe? Have I gone forward with my righteous intentions, and in faith? Have I assisted God in overcoming these issues, and setting a new generation on a better path of experiencial development?

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