Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Mon Mar 25, 2019 6:12 pm +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:03 am +0000
Posts: 2042
Makalu wrote:
yes the sumerians "came" later as a very gradual result of nodite intermarriage with the adamites to the north...they were concurrent. you will need to explain how the sumerians took over garden territory


Gradually, I would think, after the Second Garden.

Quote:
the quote says north of sumer


Where is that quote (not doubting it exists, just wanting to see it in context)

What do make of this 'short way'? Appears to be another piece of circumstantial evidence against the northern theory. It must be explained since the northern pinch point was several hundred miles from the nearest point of the Euphrates to the First Garden.

76:1.3 (847.5) ...The two rivers themselves were a good natural defense in those days, and a short way north of the second garden the Euphrates and Tigris came close together so that a defense wall extending fifty-six miles could be built for the protection of the territory to the south and between the rivers.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 817
no not after the second garden...see my next post above...the same floods that wiped out the second garden nearly wiped out susa and ur...cant put them in the same location

the andite civilization of the second garden didnt end till about 5,000bc


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 795
Why not also take into account too what the Old Testament says about the second garden? The two unrecognized rivers that help identify the location are believed to have dried up long ago. Their likely locations have been reconstructed and several maps are viewable from the internet.

I agree that the upper triangle is a very interesting region that probably played a big role in Adamite/Andite cross fertilization with the rest of the world, even if it is not the location of the second garden.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Thu May 28, 2015 5:02 am +0000
Posts: 1358
rick warren wrote:
Makalu wrote:
yes the sumerians "came" later as a very gradual result of nodite intermarriage with the adamites to the north...they were concurrent. you will need to explain how the sumerians took over garden territory


Gradually, I would think, after the Second Garden.

Quote:
the quote says north of sumer


Where is that quote (not doubting it exists, just wanting to see it in context)

What do make of this 'short way'? Appears to be another piece of circumstantial evidence against the northern theory. It must be explained since the northern pinch point was several hundred miles from the nearest point of the Euphrates to the First Garden.

76:1.3 (847.5) ...The two rivers themselves were a good natural defense in those days, and a short way north of the second garden the Euphrates and Tigris came close together so that a defense wall extending fifty-six miles could be built for the protection of the territory to the south and between the rivers.

Rick, have you considered that the paths the rivers flow in today are not the same as they were in antiquity?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 3:03 am +0000
Posts: 2042
Quote:
Rick, have you considered that the paths the rivers flow in today are not the same as they were in antiquity?


Yes, nodAmanaV, and on some maps the two rivers don't come that close together in the north! We need a geologist to try to map the river beds over 40,000 years. A tall order, eh?


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 817
Riktare wrote:
Why not also take into account too what the Old Testament says about the second garden? The two unrecognized rivers that help identify the location are believed to have dried up long ago. Their likely locations have been reconstructed and several maps are viewable from the internet.

I agree that the upper triangle is a very interesting region that probably played a big role in Adamite/Andite cross fertilization with the rest of the world, even if it is not the location of the second garden.


the papers mention that those are the four rivers of the first garden mistakenly later associated with the second garden...and anyway the two "unrecognized" river names were the greek words for the nile and ganges according to josephus lol

Quote:
It was fed by four tributaries which took origin in the coastal hills of the Edenic peninsula, and these are the “four heads” of the river which
“went out of Eden,” and which later became confused with the branches of the rivers surrounding the second garden.


we can get some ideas about the ancient river channels by the ancient archeology sites. and the papers mention the euphrates ran thru erech (uruk) at the time of the floods...consistent with current knowledge of the ancient channel there

here's another clue for y'all, the walrus is paul and there were inhabited plains west of the garden at a not particularly prehistoric time period:

Quote:
The last three waves of Andites poured out of Mesopotamia between 8000
and 6000 B.C. these three great waves of culture were forced out of Mesopotamia by the pressure of the hill
tribes to the east and the harassment of the plainsmen of the west.


and eden is sumerian for plains...oh i better stop before i give it away ;)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 795
How wide and deep are the rivers near Cayonu, Turkey? Would they be a major obstacle to invaders? Do they run with much faster current? (becoming more dangerous to navigate)

I've always thought the land in Southern Mesopotamia would have been much too flat, hot and subject to major floods to stimulate and inspire the imagination of the Adamites...


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2852
We are told that the Sahara and the Gobi deserts were fertile grasslands and that Turkestan was a cradle of agriculture up to 12,000 years ago - all since dried and scorched. Hard to measure the actual climate so many thousands of years ago....except perhaps, as Makalu suggests, by archeological evidence of cities and settlements contemporary to and since the Gardens. The region is described as "pleasant" by the authors. Still is but drier today I think than back then. I imagine lots of seasonal rain as well as snow runoff for constant surface water and little need for significant water storage or deep wells due to irrigation - the rivers always ran.

8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 817
concerning the archeological evidence i have to add that the adamites/andites were extraordinary and we should expect some extraordinary archeology evidence of them and all the archeology and dna says they were the extraordinary "anatolian farmers" of current science. the papers also resolve the conflicts between the kurgan steppe hypothesis and the anatolian hypothesis for the location of the proto-indo-european homeland with the location of adamson's headquarters and the favored caspian sea migration route.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 795
Pre-Pottery Neolithic Çayönü Tepesi (with link to The Neolithic of the Levant [500 Page Book Online])

http://ancientneareast.tripod.com/Cayonu_Tepesi.html


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 817
Riktare wrote:
How wide and deep are the rivers near Cayonu, Turkey? Would they be a major obstacle to invaders? Do they run with much faster current? (becoming more dangerous to navigate)

I've always thought the land in Southern Mesopotamia would have been much too flat, hot and subject to major floods to stimulate and inspire the imagination of the Adamites...


i've not tried to find anything about the upper tigris near cayonu but think i recall reading that the word tigris means swift water or something to that effect. there's some info here about the navigability, ancient channels, fording sites and habitation sites of the euphrates though:

http://gluedideas.com/Encyclopedia-Brit ... rates.html

in short...upper euphrates being swift canyon waters and middle euphrates a historic barrier between warring empires


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 41 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: Google [Bot]


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group