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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Makalu wrote:
what on earth makes you think i would know that? i know its a fragment of EVERYTHING and that's all i need to know to keep me plenty busy for a long time.



Oh, okay. So you know you HAVE an adjuster and that it is a fragment of God. On that, I can agree and understand.


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and yet you seem to take offense at me being conscious of my relationship with my adjuster...well i'll grant you i dont have the quality described here

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110:1.2 I wish it were possible for me to help evolving mortals to achieve a better understanding and attain a fuller appreciation of the unselfish and superb work of the Adjusters living within them, who are so devoutly faithful to the task of fostering man’s spiritual welfare. These Monitors are efficient ministers to the higher phases of men’s minds; they are wise and experienced manipulators of the spiritual potential of the human intellect. These heavenly helpers are dedicated to the stupendous task of guiding you safely inward and upward to the celestial haven of happiness. These tireless toilers are consecrated to the future personification of the triumph of divine truth in your life everlasting. They are the watchful workers who pilot the God-conscious human mind away from the shoals of evil while expertly guiding the evolving soul of man toward the divine harbors of perfection on far-distant and eternal shores. The Adjusters are loving leaders, your safe and sure guides through the dark and uncertain mazes of your short earthly career; they are the patient teachers who so constantly urge their subjects forward in the paths of progressive perfection. They are the careful custodians of the sublime values of creature character. I wish you could love them more, co-operate with them more fully, and cherish them more affectionately.


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“Take offense”? Which phrase sounds more like the person was offended?:

“That’s quite a claim.”

Or

“What on earth makes you think I would know that?”


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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well i see mine as a justified and legitimate question...what do you think justifies your doubts about consciousness of adjuster relations?


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It is my hope that all believers have heard the whisper of the pilot and felt the presence of the Spirit within as we pray, worship, and commune with God and has also experienced the tender caring touch of the guardians upon the Path of Life and Destiny.

Back to the topic!?

Makalu introduced the term - logical fallacy. An important concept, related to philosophy, for those who seek to reason and learn and discuss and disagree and discover and discern, and so, very applicable to metaphysics itself. Much of our disagreement here can be understood by an appreciation of fallacy and fallacious. Consider:

103:8.2 (1140.2) The confusion about the experience of the certainty of God arises out of the dissimilar interpretations and relations of that experience by separate individuals and by different races of men. The experiencing of God may be wholly valid, but the discourse about God, being intellectual and philosophical, is divergent and oftentimes confusingly fallacious.


Our disagreements and discussions about metaphysics or philosophy should not impeach our experience of and with God. The fallacies arise primarily in the descriptions and attempted philosophical presentations about the experience rather than the actual, personal experience within. Without mota and additional experience and wisdom, our understanding, our perspective, and our descriptions lack details and concepts and context that leave our verbal and mental pictures and presentations of reality and our experience in reality rather muddled and incomplete. Sometimes, apparently, actually incoherent. But even an incoherent presentation does not demonstrate the lack of spirituality or religious experience or a personal perspective of reality that contains truth...if not fact.

I suggest you google or bing "logical fallacy" for some very interesting and helpful education. Here's a link to an enlightening presentation on the topic: https://philosophyterms.com/logical-fallacies/

Metaphysics is a personal and reasoned construction, often without any or any significant evidence of its factual validity of reality, especially regarding our explanation for the inner life and perspective of that relationship to causes and effects. Some dictionary definitions:

the branch of philosophy that deals with the first principles of things, including abstract concepts such as being, knowing, substance, cause, identity, time, and space.

a division of philosophy that is concerned with the fundamental nature of reality and being and that includes ontology, cosmology, and often epistemology.

the branch of philosophy that deals with first principles, esp of being and knowing. the philosophical study of the nature of reality, concerned with such questions as the existence of God, the external world, etc.

Metaphysics is a traditional branch of philosophy concerned with explaining the fundamental nature of being and the world that encompasses it, although the term is not easily defined.



The UB tells us that any philosophy which relies or leans too heavily on metaphysics is weak and fallacious. Experiential wisdom and fact and truth delivered by the religious experience based on faith and revelation and which is not twisted by fear and anxiety and the mind poisons will deliver the fruits of the spirit and a far more dependable philosophy that unifies the inner and outer experiences of the mortals which exist with the dual nature of spirit and material identity.

Please indulge me in reposting some relevant text in review and in light of consideration of the logical fallacy.

103:9.12 (1142.3) There is a reality in religious experience that is proportional to the spiritual content, and such a reality is transcendent to reason, science, philosophy, wisdom, and all other human achievements. The convictions of such an experience are unassailable; the logic of religious living is incontrovertible; the certainty of such knowledge is superhuman; the satisfactions are superbly divine, the courage indomitable, the devotions unquestioning, the loyalties supreme, and the destinies final—eternal, ultimate, and universal.

103:7.8 The truth—an understanding of cosmic relationships, universe facts, and spiritual values—can best be had through the ministry of the Spirit of Truth and can best be criticized by revelation. But revelation originates neither a science nor a religion; its function is to co-ordinate both science and religion with the truth of reality. Always, in the absence of revelation or in the failure to accept or grasp it, has mortal man resorted to his futile gesture of metaphysics, that being the only human substitute for the revelation of truth or for the mota of morontia personality.

103:6.8 Metaphysics has proved a failure; mota, man cannot perceive. Revelation is the only technique which can compensate for the absence of the truth sensitivity of mota in a material world. Revelation authoritatively clarifies the muddle of reason-developed metaphysics on an evolutionary sphere.

103:6.12 Out of his incomplete grasp of science, his faint hold upon religion, and his abortive attempts at metaphysics, man has attempted to construct his formulations of philosophy. And modern man would indeed build a worthy and engaging philosophy of himself and his universe were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe.

103:6.13 Revelation is evolutionary man's only hope of bridging the morontia gulf. Faith and reason, unaided by mota, cannot conceive and construct a logical universe. Without the insight of mota, mortal man cannot discern goodness, love, and truth in the phenomena of the material world.

103:7.8 The truth—an understanding of cosmic relationships, universe facts, and spiritual values—can best be had through the ministry of the Spirit of Truth and can best be criticized by revelation. But revelation originates neither a science nor a religion; its function is to co-ordinate both science and religion with the truth of reality. Always, in the absence of revelation or in the failure to accept or grasp it, has mortal man resorted to his futile gesture of metaphysics, that being the only human substitute for the revelation of truth or for the mota of morontia personality.


I hope for an end to this last season of acrimony and for getting back on track and out of the ditch by continuation of exploring the topic of metaphysics. Especially, how mortals may have such productive and effective religious transformation by faith and truth with such faulty and unreliable perspective of universe reality or how the lack of knowledge seems irrelevant to Circle Progress and destiny fulfillment! Our metaphysics proves quite a failure we are told and yet it is important and offers both meaning and value to mind in its inherent need to understand and know, constantly in pursuit of knowing and the adjustment of perspective in its quest for discernment!!


Thanks everyone.


Bradly 8)


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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'cept the first thing i posted here was that the dictionary definition of metaphysics isnt the same as the papers...actually the modern definition in practice is predictably muddled, debated and varies a lot. in the papers it's simply the (philosophical) attempt to unite matter and spirit and there's plenty of good evidence for the reality of both including the reality of the thing attempting to unite...notwithstanding, the 'a priori' assumptions of all three.

revelation reveals information in those areas where unaided mortal metaphysics attempts and fails, but only mota can prove that information to us (true metaphysics)


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Makalu wrote:
'cept the first thing i posted here was that the dictionary definition of metaphysics isnt the same as the papers...actually the modern definition in practice is predictably muddled, debated and varies a lot. in the papers it's simply the (philosophical) attempt to unite matter and spirit and there's plenty of good evidence for the reality of both including the reality of the thing attempting to unite...notwithstanding, the 'a priori' assumptions of all three.

revelation reveals information in those areas where unaided mortal metaphysics attempts and fails, but only mota can prove that information to us (true metaphysics)


That's your opinion which is contradicted by the UB text...as already posted. Philosophy and metaphysics is not the same thing in the UB. You also erroneously claimed metaphysics and revelation to be the same thing, again contradicting the UB. Sorry, but no cigar! Still. Metaphysics is fictional and theoretical even when it forms beliefs about reality. There is reality and the metaphysical inventions about reality...big difference. Guess we'll go around this track again...oh well....


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nope, not going thru it with you again nor reposting the relevant quotes you don't understand


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Nigel and Makalu both posted a quote earlier that really describes where I'd hoped this conversation might eventually lead:

9. The Essence of Religion
(1140.7) 103:9.1 Theology deals with the intellectual content of religion, metaphysics (revelation) with the philosophic aspects. Religious experience is the spiritual content of religion. Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion, the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid.


Me here: While Makalu reads the first line above to mean that metaphysics and revelation are the same thing, Nigel posed the suggestion that, based on the quote below which precedes 9.1, the (revelation) indicates an "or" or, to me an "and" rather than indicating they are the same thing. For how can they be the same thing if one corrects the other?

(1136.3) 103:6.8 Metaphysics has proved a failure; mota, man cannot perceive. Revelation is the only technique which can compensate for the absence of the truth sensitivity of mota in a material world. Revelation authoritatively clarifies the muddle of reason-developed metaphysics on an evolutionary sphere.


Hmmmm.... We should also consider the use of the word "revelation". There are 3 forms of revelation described in the UB - self revelation, personal revelation, and epochal revelation. Self revelation is a function of reason, insight, and inspiration - where the material mind and cosmic mind combine to figure things out - creative and critical thinking. Personal revelation is a function of the Adjusters and is a transfer of truth from Adjuster to mind. Epochal revelation is periodic and planetary and is focused facts and knowledge of reality as well as universal truths to reduce human errors and confusions related to reality. All 3 forms of revelation combine, over time, to inform and enlighten and create philosophy which unites the material and spiritual identities and existance in this dual natured reality of causes and effects.


Revelation clarifies the muddles of metaphysics. Not the same thing at all. Or so I, and others, understand. Makalu and I will agree to disagree on this one.


But back to the point...."Notwithstanding the mythologic vagaries and the psychologic illusions of the intellectual content of religion, the metaphysical assumptions of error and the techniques of self-deception, the political distortions and the socioeconomic perversions of the philosophic content of religion,the spiritual experience of personal religion remains genuine and valid."

:biggrin: 8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Jan 25, 2019 2:50 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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For how can they be the same thing if one corrects the other?


same as doctors correct doctors and accountants correct accountants because they have the expertise in the same areas

btw the way you insist on rephrasing "essentially the same" as "the same" is just more deception


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Makalu wrote:
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For how can they be the same thing if one corrects the other?


same as doctors correct doctors and accountants correct accountants because they have the expertise in the same areas

btw the way you insist on rephrasing "essentially the same" as "the same" is just more deception



I'm not sure you understand the definition of "essentially" - which would mean a more emphatic "the same" or that the one cannot be defined or understood without the other - not 'similar' or 'like' or 'nearly' - but one is essential to the definition of the other. There is 'essentially' no difference between "essentially the same" and "the same".

ADVERB
used to emphasize the basic, fundamental, or intrinsic nature of a person, thing, or situation.

synonyms:
fundamentally · primarily · principally · chiefly · essentially · elementally · firstly · predominantly · above all · first of all · most of all · first and foremost · in essence · at bottom · at heart · mostly · for the most part · in the main · mainly · on the whole · by and large · substantially · in substance · intrinsically · inherently · au fond · at the end of the day · when all is said and done · when you get right down to it


I do think that self revelation is the source of metaphysics...as both are from the same source and not just similar in function. Self revelation being, IMO, that which reason can envision, conclude, and/or believe. But if you mean that personal revelation from the Adjuster is the same as metaphysics or that epochal revelation is the same as metaphysics in the UB, then No Way are those the same or essentially the same. Personal revelation is not about philosophy or reality unification, IMO, but is strictly about personal religious experience and the assurance of truth related to the relationship to God.

110:3.2 (1205.6) The success of your Adjuster in the enterprise of piloting you through the mortal life and bringing about your survival depends not so much on the theories of your beliefs as upon your decisions, determinations, and steadfast faith. All these movements of personality growth become powerful influences aiding in your advancement because they help you to co-operate with the Adjuster; they assist you in ceasing to resist. Thought Adjusters succeed or apparently fail in their terrestrial undertakings just in so far as mortals succeed or fail to co-operate with the scheme whereby they are to be advanced along the ascending path of perfection attainment. The secret of survival is wrapped up in the supreme human desire to be Godlike and in the associated willingness to do and be any and all things which are essential to the final attainment of that overmastering desire.

110:5.6 (1208.5) In varying degrees and increasingly as you ascend the psychic circles, sometimes directly, but more often indirectly, you do communicate with your Adjusters. But it is dangerous to entertain the idea that every new concept originating in the human mind is the dictation of the Adjuster. More often, in beings of your order, that which you accept as the Adjuster’s voice is in reality the emanation of your own intellect. This is dangerous ground, and every human being must settle these problems for himself in accordance with his natural human wisdom and superhuman insight.



Bradly


Last edited by fanofVan on Fri Jan 25, 2019 10:36 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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oh i understand what the word means, and my application of it fits your posted definition. can you understand why the quote is the first sentence in the subtopic "the essence of religion"?


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Makalu wrote:
oh i understand what the word means, and my application of it fits your posted definition. can you understand why the quote is the first sentence in the subtopic "the essence of religion"?


102:6.3 says "love is the essence of religion". I suppose we are being taught in 103:9.1 that philosophy, theology, revelation, and metaphysics are NOT religious experience NOR the essemce of or essentially the same as religion but are only aspects or facets or facilitators of religious.

103:9.7 says faith carries reason as far as it can but then goes farther...farther than reason can go. The very point I keep hoping us to get to...the purpose and value of incomplete and innacurate metaphysics to mind but moreso the validity and functionality of religious experience beyond reason, fact, fiction, invention, and false beliefs, theologies, creeds, and philosophies.


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Paper 103, especially Section 9 - The Essence of Religion - helps us consider the differences between the elements being discussed above - metaphysics, revelation, philosophy, religion, theology, science, logic, reason, wisdom, faith, truth.

103:9.8 (1141.6) Science (knowledge) is founded on the inherent (adjutant spirit) assumption that reason is valid, that the universe can be comprehended. Philosophy (co-ordinate comprehension) is founded on the inherent (spirit of wisdom) assumption that wisdom is valid, that the material universe can be co-ordinated with the spiritual. Religion (the truth of personal spiritual experience) is founded on the inherent (Thought Adjuster) assumption that faith is valid, that God can be known and attained.

103:9.9 (1141.7) The full realization of the reality of mortal life consists in a progressive willingness to believe these assumptions of reason, wisdom, and faith. Such a life is one motivated by truth and dominated by love; and these are the ideals of objective cosmic reality whose existence cannot be materially demonstrated.

103:9.10 (1142.1) When reason once recognizes right and wrong, it exhibits wisdom; when wisdom chooses between right and wrong, truth and error, it demonstrates spirit leading. And thus are the functions of mind, soul, and spirit ever closely united and functionally interassociated. Reason deals with factual knowledge; wisdom, with philosophy and revelation; faith, with living spiritual experience. Through truth man attains beauty and by spiritual love ascends to goodness.

103:9.11 (1142.2) Faith leads to knowing God, not merely to a mystical feeling of the divine presence. Faith must not be overmuch influenced by its emotional consequences. True religion is an experience of believing and knowing as well as a satisfaction of feeling.

103:9.12 (1142.3) There is a reality in religious experience that is proportional to the spiritual content, and such a reality is transcendent to reason, science, philosophy, wisdom, and all other human achievements. The convictions of such an experience are unassailable; the logic of religious living is incontrovertible; the certainty of such knowledge is superhuman; the satisfactions are superbly divine, the courage indomitable, the devotions unquestioning, the loyalties supreme, and the destinies final—eternal, ultimate, and universal.


I believe it has been satisfactorily demonstrated that metaphysics are inherent to our nature and are helpful to the mind in conceiving and conceptualizing a reality that combines the effects seen and the causes unseen or unknown, the attempt to understand and harmonize the dual nature and reality awareness of mortal mind. And also that our current metaphysical inventions are delivered by our inherent reasoning capability of mortal, evolutionary mind to be replaced by knowledge gained by either scientific discovery and verification or epochal revelation of fact...which replaces prior metaphysics but also delivers ever greater and newer speculations about that which remains unknown but subject to further reason...further metaphysics! As Makalu points out, our morontia experience to come will add mota and new levels of reasoning and insight which will deliver what the UB calls "true metaphysics", a more dependable and productive form of speculation.


But more importantly, I hope that we are discovering that religious experience and the value of faith and truth to our transformative progress does not depend upon the accuracy of our metaphysics! Indeed are we taught that even fusion is possible in this life regardless of the false beliefs and metaphysics we may hold - because faith and truth do not depend upon knowledge, education, facts, logic, or evidence. In fact, faith and truth and religious experience cannot be proven or demonstrated by reason or logic or fact or knowledge.


Science and religion are two divergent paths to the same destination but for the tadpoles of time, only faith and truth experiences may deliver us to our destiny with certainty. We are given the ministry of both mind and spirit to discover the realities of the material and the spirit - both...and to unite them and integrate them and harmonize them by experience and into the expression of that discovery in the Reality of Religious Experience.


8)


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Could you explain why "knowledge" and "adjutant spirit" are in parenthesis, in paragraph 6 here you quoted? Does this imply from the text that science is a function of the adjutant spirit of knowledge? The inherent assumption, based on the adjutant spirits, the adjutant spirit's inherent assumption? Excuse for experiencing, the difficulty in the perspective presented by the syntax of the text. Whose assumption? Coordinate comprehension as an aspect of the adjutant mind spirit of wisdom?

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so that the voice of intuition may guide us
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