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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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We are advised to well consider the specific audience and context of the words of the Master to better understand those words. The audience of these words is the Apostles. And on the way to Jerusalem where they are about to witness the murder of Jesus and be immediately subjected to capture, torture, and death. This is a grave time of great risk and none of them are truly prepared for the horror they are about to witness. Jesus is trying to prepare them for the very end of his and perhaps their own life. This is the context, the time, and the audience for these words...not us.


To believers we are told the yoke is light and that the personal religious experience should presume salvation and eternal life as do the spirits tell us by faith and truth affirmations (103:9.5). We are also told that doubt/fear is our biggest obstacle to sublime peace and confident expectations of Paradise. Believers are NOT told to forsake family, home, community, career, or any other form of social position.

Your lack of understanding and false and misleading interpretation is most unfortunate SEla/Stephen. And it is not me or my words who/which "stick with the positive side" except as I echo and quote the positive affirmations of reality in God's friendly universe as told us in the UB!!!

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Thu Jan 10, 2019 11:28 am +0000, edited 5 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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Yes, and elsewhere in the book (I cannot recall the exact quote) it says something about how we are not expected to give up everything and pursue an exclusively spiritual existence; but that it is important and necessary that we conduct our material affairs, family relationships, and vocation.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Yes, and elsewhere in the book (I cannot recall the exact quote) it says something about how we are not expected to give up everything and pursue an exclusively spiritual existence; but that it is important and necessary that we conduct our material affairs, family relationships, and vocation.


Yes...I recall 4 distinctions: Apostle; Messenger (the Seventy); Disciple; Believer and only Messengers and Apostles were required to forsake family and community for service...but not for their spiritual standing or progress!!

I know the text you quote but cannot find it either....yet! But here's others that support our memories well:

163:2.2 (1801.5) One earnest disciple came to Jesus, saying: “Master, I would be one of your new apostles, but my father is very old and near death; could I be permitted to return home to bury him?” To this man Jesus said: “My son, the foxes have holes, and the birds of heaven have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. You are a faithful disciple, and you can remain such while you return home to minister to your loved ones, but not so with my gospel messengers. They have forsaken all to follow me and proclaim the kingdom. If you would be an ordained teacher, you must let others bury the dead while you go forth to publish the good news.” And this man went away in great disappointment.

163:3.3 (1803.5) As they went off by themselves, Jesus was grieved that Matadormus did not remain with them, for he greatly loved him. And when they had walked down by the lake, they sat there beside the water, and Peter, speaking for the twelve (who were all present by this time), said: “We are troubled by your words to the rich young man. Shall we require those who would follow you to give up all their worldly goods?” And Jesus said: “No, Peter, only those who would become apostles, and who desire to live with me as you do and as one family. But the Father requires that the affections of his children be pure and undivided. Whatever thing or person comes between you and the love of the truths of the kingdom, must be surrendered. If one’s wealth does not invade the precincts of the soul, it is of no consequence in the spiritual life of those who would enter the kingdom.”


155:6.11 (1732.4) Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness—justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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no sophist wrote:
I believe that personality is spirit pattern and is responsible for unity attempts. Example is when true religion and true science attempt unity there is a super additive and that is true philosophy. That’s about as close to Spirit as we can get. Call it metaphysics if you like but if growth results, then the effort implies true value and meaning.

What was that quote about it’s sad to record that so few people don’t do reflective thinking - or something like that?

That punchy paragraph comes from paper 16:6.9, 192.5, and features as punchline (see lower left corner) in the following pic :biggrin:

PS: apologies to those using phones -- can those with larger screens see the picture below?

Image

Nigel


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 Post subject: Re: Metaphysics
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So...if metaphysics is mortal mind's attempt to explain and understand that reality which is not factually and scientifically known....a formation of speculations or inventions which helps the reasoning mind to construct a perception of reality and assist in the formulation of a working philosophy which unites the observable universe to the causes and forces or origins of creation and thought and self and spirit, and if reason, logic, and the cosmic intuitions delivers reality-response and insight to deep thinking to deliver a factual understanding of reality, especially as added to and completed by epochal revelation to help eliminate errors and confusions of our conceptions of reality, then over time and as the mortal reality perspective gains factual and objective knowledge and perspective of reality does metaphysics have less and less "empty or blank" canvas which requires our speculation and metaphysical considerations and constructs.

In other words, to Andon and Fonta, everything regarding material and spirituality was metaphysical. For us far less is so and in a few hundred or thousand generations, even more will be known and understood about reality. The UB is filled with descriptions of reality not known on our world or not known for a long, long time now, lost in history. Imagine the time to come when our world's view of reality is objectively and commonly held and shared as delivered by the UB and the scientific method has also progressively contributed to our factual understanding of material realities. That which will be subject to metaphysics will be less and less over time. Indeed, on a world in Light & Life, that which is subject to speculation might include primarily those issues of speculation mentioned by the authors of the UB.

To me metaphysics is the process of "filling in the blanks" of the unknown and also the unknowable. This process is, according to the UB, a vital and inherent mind function. We have an urge and desire and need and compulsion to "know" and to "understand". Only lazy and indolent minds are indifferent to learning and to knowing. This is one shared commonality and tendency of UB students. You really need to know and understand to dive into this huge volume filled with so much new data and perspective - so much of which challenges and contradicts all prior metaphysics and beliefs!

I'd like to point out an interesting element to the following and previously posted text:

16:6.4 (191.7) There exists in all personality associations of the cosmic mind a quality which might be denominated the “reality response.” It is this universal cosmic endowment of will creatures which saves them from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion. This reality sensitivity of the cosmic mind responds to certain phases of reality just as energy-material responds to gravity. It would be still more correct to say that these supermaterial realities so respond to the mind of the cosmos.

16:6.5 (192.1) The cosmic mind unfailingly responds (recognizes response) on three levels of universe reality. These responses are self-evident to clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds. These levels of reality are:


Me here: It appears to me this is saying that not only does mind respond to reality but also that reality recognizes mind-response and also responds to its recognition??!! We know that all of reality is a creation of mind and must then be mind responsive. Which makes the reality response a symbiotic relationship which denotes a double response. I believe the Supreme is Deity that is similar in function, both cause and effect. The Supreme causes effects and is effected by the mortal experience and both forms of experience contribute to the Supreme Being.

16:6.10 (192.6) In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

16:6.11 (192.7) It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind; of civilization to express them; of life experience to realize them; of religion to ennoble them; and of personality to unify them.

Self Revelation....a new concept for me I don't recall from all prior readings. Revelation of reality that is a function of our innate endowment of mind and the cosmic intuitions ....the ability to figure stuff out by reason, intuition, inspiration, and insight....and for those to function, metaphysics is a tool and function which assists that process of learning and knowing. Or so I understand. 3 forms of revelation - self revelation by thought and mind endowment; personal/auto revelation by the Thought Adjusters; and Epochal Revelation.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
So...if metaphysics is mortal mind's attempt to explain and understand that reality which is not factually and scientifically known....a formation of speculations or inventions which helps the reasoning mind to construct a perception of reality and assist in the formulation of a working philosophy which unites the observable universe to the causes and forces or origins of creation and thought and self and spirit, and if reason, logic, and the cosmic intuitions delivers reality-response and insight to deep thinking to deliver a factual understanding of reality, especially as added to and completed by epochal revelation to help eliminate errors and confusions of our conceptions of reality, then over time and as the mortal reality perspective gains factual and objective knowledge and perspective of reality does metaphysics have less and less "empty or blank" canvas which requires our speculation and metaphysical considerations and constructs.

In other words, to Andon and Fonta, everything regarding material and spirituality was metaphysical. For us far less is so and in a few hundred or thousand generations, even more will be known and understood about reality. The UB is filled with descriptions of reality not known on our world or not known for a long, long time now, lost in history. Imagine the time to come when our world's view of reality is objectively and commonly held and shared as delivered by the UB and the scientific method has also progressively contributed to our factual understanding of material realities. That which will be subject to metaphysics will be less and less over time. Indeed, on a world in Light & Life, that which is subject to speculation might include primarily those issues of speculation mentioned by the authors of the UB.

To me metaphysics is the process of "filling in the blanks" of the unknown and also the unknowable. This process is, according to the UB, a vital and inherent mind function. We have an urge and desire and need and compulsion to "know" and to "understand". Only lazy and indolent minds are indifferent to learning and to knowing. This is one shared commonality and tendency of UB students. You really need to know and understand to dive into this huge volume filled with so much new data and perspective - so much of which challenges and contradicts all prior metaphysics and beliefs!

I'd like to point out an interesting element to the following and previously posted text:

16:6.4 (191.7) There exists in all personality associations of the cosmic mind a quality which might be denominated the “reality response.” It is this universal cosmic endowment of will creatures which saves them from becoming helpless victims of the implied a priori assumptions of science, philosophy, and religion. This reality sensitivity of the cosmic mind responds to certain phases of reality just as energy-material responds to gravity. It would be still more correct to say that these supermaterial realities so respond to the mind of the cosmos.

16:6.5 (192.1) The cosmic mind unfailingly responds (recognizes response) on three levels of universe reality. These responses are self-evident to clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds. These levels of reality are:


Me here: It appears to me this is saying that not only does mind respond to reality but also that reality recognizes mind-response and also responds to its recognition??!! We know that all of reality is a creation of mind and must then be mind responsive. Which makes the reality response a symbiotic relationship which denotes a double response. I believe the Supreme is Deity that is similar in function, both cause and effect. The Supreme causes effects and is effected by the mortal experience and both forms of experience contribute to the Supreme Being.

16:6.10 (192.6) In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

16:6.11 (192.7) It is the purpose of education to develop and sharpen these innate endowments of the human mind; of civilization to express them; of life experience to realize them; of religion to ennoble them; and of personality to unify them.

Self Revelation....a new concept for me I don't recall from all prior readings. Revelation of reality that is a function of our innate endowment of mind and the cosmic intuitions ....the ability to figure stuff out by reason, intuition, inspiration, and insight....and for those to function, metaphysics is a tool and function which assists that process of learning and knowing. Or so I understand. 3 forms of revelation - self revelation by thought and mind endowment; personal/auto revelation by the Thought Adjusters; and Epochal Revelation.

8)


That is excellent analysis, except I would exonorate what we consider "the nature of metaphysics" or as "metaphysics per se", does not require mortal mind's attempt to explain and understand in order to have relevent present-actuality-status for the human individual.

The existence of Andon and Fonta, for Urantia as for every evolutionary world, signifies the "birth of morontial beings". And therefore, it is indeed metaphysically significant.

Metaphysics pertaining to the inner mechanism of man which enables Revelation to enter into the conscious streams of human thought. Of course this is an esoteric subject, which personality would perhaps not divulge to a maturing sphere, sociologically or intellectually. Even as a human embryo is considered a parasite before it is considered an infant or child, the morontial form is likened unto "being in its embryonic stage while sojourning in the material tabernacle upon Urantia." Then in fact, with metaphysics one must approach God through the prospect that I am a parasite of the cosmic mind?

_________________
to the underlaying unity of all life
so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


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No, I don't consider the relationship parasitic by any definition of the word nor by UB description nor by my own prior metaphysics or speculation. Mortal mind is a creation of Deity and is coordinated and integral to Cosmic Mind and part of the Divine circuitry of reflectivity and is endowed as a gift along with personality....we are part of an integrated whole and there is nothing in reality that is or can be parasitic rather that systemic I do not think.

And how about the mortal/tadpoles' contributions to the Supreme and our contributions to both service and new universe potential?

A false claim IMO...and an inaccurate and further portrayal of your gloomy view of the wondrous, glorious reality presented in the UB where mortals are creative contributors of reality potentials and actualizations.

8)


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