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There are epochal revelations delivered by celestials in TUB founded on belief, presumption, tradition and opinion. I find it interesting and puzzling at the same time any celestial would put forward a revelation as an opinion, belief, presumption or tradition.

The following is revelation born out of opinion:

Quote:
93:10.9 (1025.5) It has long been the opinion of our order that Machiventa’s presence on the Jerusem corps of Urantia directors, the four and twenty counselors, is sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that he is destined to follow the mortals of Urantia on through the universe scheme of progression and ascension even to the Paradise Corps of the Finality...

This specific order of celestials, based on its opinion, believes Machiventa is destined to follow mortals of Urantia to the Paradise Corp of the Finality. Still the revelation is an opinion. Why do they believe Machiventa will follow them? And why expect us to accept the revelation as truth? Apparently the information to which they have access was not sufficient enough to convince them the certainty of the event.

Has anyone put thought into this issue? What are you feelings on it, if so?

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brooklyn_born wrote:
There are epochal revelations delivered by celestials in TUB founded on belief, presumption, tradition and opinion. I find it interesting and puzzling at the same time any celestial would put forward a revelation as an opinion, belief, presumption or tradition.

The following is revelation born out of opinion:

Quote:
93:10.9 (1025.5) It has long been the opinion of our order that Machiventa’s presence on the Jerusem corps of Urantia directors, the four and twenty counselors, is sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that he is destined to follow the mortals of Urantia on through the universe scheme of progression and ascension even to the Paradise Corps of the Finality...

This specific order of celestials, based on its opinion, believes Machiventa is destined to follow mortals of Urantia to the Paradise Corp of the Finality. Still the revelation is an opinion. Why do they believe Machiventa will follow them? And why expect us to accept the revelation as truth? Apparently the information to which they had access was not enough to convince them of the certainty the event.

Has anyone put thought into this issue? What are you feelings on it, if so?


It is the entire UB that is the Epochal Revelation. Each author of each Paper is revealing facts on universe reality plus some mysteries, speculations, and unknowables based on their order of being and perspective. There is never any doubt as to their certainty or uncertainty of their presentments so far as I recall.

I find it very refreshing, appealing, and even endearing. There is mystery and some uncertainty and knowledge still to gain at every level of being. Even Deity is learning about potential and its evolutionary realization over time by the TA's and the Supreme and the Sons of time! Experiential wisdom and actualization of potential ARE universe realities!

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Aug 27, 2018 8:27 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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If it's an opinion, it's not revelation. Simple.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
If it's an opinion, it's not revelation. Simple.


but the celestials consider it revelation seeing as they include it in the corpus of epochal revelation. Which brings me to this...

Quote:
0:12.11 (16.8) ... We may resort to pure revelation only when the
concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.


Pure revelation implies impure revelation, which I know is included in the corpus of revelations we call Urantia book. But we are assured the following:

Quote:
0:12.13 (17.2) We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity... But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to ... comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth ...


Thought Adjuster, HS and SoT sort out the mess.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
If it's an opinion, it's not revelation. Simple.


but the celestials consider it revelation seeing as they include it in the corpus of epochal revelation. Which brings me to this...

Quote:
0:12.11 (16.8) ... We may resort to pure revelation only when the
concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.


Pure revelation implies impure revelation, which I know is included in the corpus of revelations we call Urantia book. But we are assured the following:

Quote:
0:12.13 (17.2) We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity... But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to ... comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth ...


Thought Adjuster, HS and SoT sort out the mess.


What "mess"??!!

Pure revelation does not imply impure or inaccurate revelation....but you do make such an implication.

Language and translation related issues have nothing to do with speculations and mystery. You are inferring inaccuracies and unreliability. I recommend we consider the fact and function of universe reflectivity regarding the factual presentation of reality by the authors.


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Aug 27, 2018 7:57 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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You were warned about making it personal. Please delete any personal references to me or I will report you again.



fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
If it's an opinion, it's not revelation. Simple.


but the celestials consider it revelation seeing as they include it in the corpus of epochal revelation. Which brings me to this...

Quote:
0:12.11 (16.8) ... We may resort to pure revelation only when the
concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.


Pure revelation implies impure revelation, which I know is included in the corpus of revelations we call Urantia book. But we are assured the following:

Quote:
0:12.13 (17.2) We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity... But we know that there dwells within the human mind a fragment of God, and that there sojourns with the human soul the Spirit of Truth; and we further know that these spirit forces conspire to enable material man to ... comprehend the philosophy of universe meanings. But even more certainly we know that these spirits of the Divine Presence are able to assist man in the spiritual appropriation of all truth ...


Thought Adjuster, HS and SoT sort out the mess.


What "mess"??!!

Pure revelation does not imply any such thing...but you do. Sowing doubt at every turn and with every topic attempting to confirm your prejudices and non-literal beliefs.

Language and translation related issues have nothing to do with speculations and mystery. You are inferring inaccuracies and unreliability...always and still. I recommend we consider the fact and function of universe reflectivity regarding the factual presentation of reality by the authors.

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Impure revelation is translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind.

Quote:
0:12.13 (17.2) We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind.


Pure revelation is concepts and words with origin in the celestial world.

Quote:
0:12.11 (16.8) ...We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.

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brooklyn_born wrote:
There are epochal revelations delivered by celestials in TUB founded on belief, presumption, tradition and opinion. I find it interesting and puzzling at the same time any celestial would put forward a revelation as an opinion, belief, presumption or tradition.

The following is revelation born out of opinion:

Quote:
93:10.9 (1025.5) It has long been the opinion of our order that Machiventa’s presence on the Jerusem corps of Urantia directors, the four and twenty counselors, is sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that he is destined to follow the mortals of Urantia on through the universe scheme of progression and ascension even to the Paradise Corps of the Finality...

This specific order of celestials, based on its opinion, believes Machiventa is destined to follow mortals of Urantia to the Paradise Corp of the Finality. Still the revelation is an opinion. Why do they believe Machiventa will follow them? And why expect us to accept the revelation as truth? Apparently the information to which they have access was not sufficient enough to convince them the certainty of the event.

Has anyone put thought into this issue? What are you feelings on it, if so?


Why isn't this topic in Abner's or the Skeptics? BB is an avowed skeptic and is here further attempting to portray the UB as unreliable and infers that it should not be accepted as truthful.

But I am the one being reported and threatened. Down the rabbit hole we go.....


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brooklyn_born wrote:
Image

Impure revelation is translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind.

Quote:
0:12.13 (17.2) We are fully cognizant of the difficulties of our assignment; we recognize the impossibility of fully translating the language of the concepts of divinity and eternity into the symbols of the language of the finite concepts of the mortal mind.


Pure revelation is concepts and words with origin in the celestial world.

Quote:
0:12.11 (16.8) ...We may resort to pure revelation only when the concept of presentation has had no adequate previous expression by the human mind.


The accusation of impurity is your claim. Pure revelation is that which is not a re-presentation of the highest and most truthful human concepts which are also restored or repeated facts and truths of epochal import. Simple if one is not trying to sow doubt...IMO.


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Here we go again with the personal attacks. I warned you already. Now I am reporting.


fanofVan wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
There are epochal revelations delivered by celestials in TUB founded on belief, presumption, tradition and opinion. I find it interesting and puzzling at the same time any celestial would put forward a revelation as an opinion, belief, presumption or tradition.

The following is revelation born out of opinion:

Quote:
93:10.9 (1025.5) It has long been the opinion of our order that Machiventa’s presence on the Jerusem corps of Urantia directors, the four and twenty counselors, is sufficient evidence to warrant the belief that he is destined to follow the mortals of Urantia on through the universe scheme of progression and ascension even to the Paradise Corps of the Finality...

This specific order of celestials, based on its opinion, believes Machiventa is destined to follow mortals of Urantia to the Paradise Corp of the Finality. Still the revelation is an opinion. Why do they believe Machiventa will follow them? And why expect us to accept the revelation as truth? Apparently the information to which they have access was not sufficient enough to convince them the certainty of the event.

Has anyone put thought into this issue? What are you feelings on it, if so?


Why isn't this topic in Abner's or the Skeptics? BB is an avowed skeptic and is here further attempting to portray the UB as unreliable and infers that it should not be accepted as truthful.

But I am the one being reported and threatened. Down the rabbit hole we go.....

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I encourage you to do what you think is best BB. A review of my posts, as edited, fails to demonstrate personal attacks. Pointing out what you are saying and inferring are not personal or attacks, either one. You are an avowed skeptic. This is not an attack or personal or false or an opinion...you have said so here and recently. Your opinions and implications are clear by your questions which I have attempted to answer but they are not what you want to hear.


On August 15 you posted the following:


"Here is my position and hopefully it will bring this issue to rest...

I reject the race papers in whole. They originate in a mind (contact commission) reflecting the racial climate of a pre-civil rights, scientific racism era. I accept the spiritual revelations but filtered through my autorevelation; I especially accept the mind and afterlife papers. I wholeheartedly accept the moral teachings of Jesus. The literal interpretation of TUB to me is the baseline upon which numerous, if not, infinite personal interpretations rest, so I do not limit myself to it; in fact, I actively seek to go beyond it. The historical narratives, for example, the rebellion, I accept, in toto; however I believe there are factual errors in them.

TUB is the work of men inspired by divine beings (from the rarefied to the most material) like any other religious or spiritual text. In a nutshell, this is my position on TUB and it is NOT up for debate."


Your "position" may not be up for debate, but it is relevant here at this study group of the Urantia Book when considering your topics and opinions posted. You have a habit of and committment to pointing out what you believe are errors and misrepresentations of reality and then of inserting your own personal beliefs in place of the presentations in the Papers. In addition, you not only disagree with and claim errors throughout the UB but then also twist and torment the text to disparage it. For example your introduction of "impure" above. That's your claim and it has motive and agenda. And despite maryjo's protests, this motive and agenda is plain and easily perceived.

And your topics and agenda should be posted in the Skeptics or Abner's corners since you are a self described and avowed skeptic. It is you who is controversial and who is hoping to be.

Also, you specifically asked for our "feelings" about your post and topic. Careful what you ask for. I certainly held back my own feelings and moderated them significantly. You obviously do not want to know my feelings....which you will be reporting again soon to the mods.

Please point out which of my words posted here are personal attacks - from the top:

"It is the entire UB that is the Epochal Revelation.

Each author of each Paper is revealing facts on universe reality plus some mysteries, speculations, and unknowables based on their order of being and perspective.

There is never any doubt as to their certainty or uncertainty of their presentments so far as I recall.

I find it very refreshing, appealing, and even endearing.

There is mystery and some uncertainty and knowledge still to gain at every level of being.

Even Deity is learning about potential and its evolutionary realization over time by the TA's and the Supreme and the Sons of time!

Experiential wisdom and actualization of potential ARE universe realities!

What "mess"??!!

Pure revelation does not imply impure or inaccurate revelation....but you do make such an implication.

Language and translation related issues have nothing to do with speculations and mystery.

You are inferring inaccuracies and unreliability.

I recommend we consider the fact and function of universe reflectivity regarding the factual presentation of reality by the authors.

Why isn't this topic in Abner's or the Skeptics?

BB is an avowed skeptic and is here further attempting to portray the UB as unreliable and infers that it should not be accepted as truthful.

But I am the one being reported and threatened. Down the rabbit hole we go.....

The accusation of impurity is your claim.

Pure revelation is that which is not a re-presentation of the highest and most truthful human concepts which are also restored or repeated facts and truths of epochal import.

Simple if one is not trying to sow doubt...IMO.
"


Bradly


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From the Guidelines:

"This discussion board, as an extension of the Truthbook.com website, has one primary goal:
To be a safe place where newcomers to The Urantia Book can ask questions and explore the teachings of The Urantia Book in a communal setting.

In a sense, this forum is a Virtual Urantia Book Study Group. Specifically, it is a place for new readers to meet long-time readers. We welcome long-time readers as a valuable resource for assisting newcomers to better understand the teachings of The Urantia Book; this discussion board is provided for the benefit of long-time readers too, keeping our primary goal in mind."



"...explore the teachings of the Urantia Book..."


"...for assisting newcomers to better understand the teachings of the Urantia Book..."

It seems to me that such a goal means this group is to take the claims, teachings, and words of the authors of the UB literally....as written. That we study what the UB says to thereby discover meanings and value and that the authors intentionally wrote what they meant and that they mean what they say. If this is true, then why are some who disagree with and defy these guidelines allowed free reign in this "communal setting" to attack the Papers and to insert their contradictions and doubts and personal theories which have nothing whatsoever to do with the Paper themselves? Is this a study group of the Urantia Book? Or has it changed into something else...and something less?

A serious question for the community.


Would someone please point out how BB's words and beliefs and posts here support or promote this stated "one primary goal".


Is this the primary goal? To explore the teachings to better understand the teachings? And what of those posters and posts which have no such intention? Wasn't the Skeptic's Corner and Abner's Corner provided for such people and topics?


If not this poster and topic, then who and what and when?


Just asking..........


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Here is the deal, foV,

Long time ago I decided, in the interest of civility, it is best to refrain engaging you on any topics involving TUB, but I will make an exception here and address you on this issue in public. I never claimed to be a Urantia book skeptic nor did I give you permission to label me as such; I find it very disrespectful, especially when it is a blatant, false characterization. Even in the very quote you furnish, I state what I accept in TUB and explain my approach to revelations. Perhaps you should look up the definition of a skeptic.

In any event, for the record, I am NOT a skeptic. I view the papers in a different light than how you view them; admittedly, however, I am a skeptic of your approach to the revelations. That will I readily concede to. Regardless, the moderator warned participants not to make personal statements about anyone. So, why do you continue to find labels to put on me publicly? It is a TOS violation.

If you take issue with my claims, fine, they are fair game. Address the claims. STOP ATTACKING ME PERSONALLY. How is it you do not understand this TOS after it was explained to us by the moderator?

I am not going to address any of your points regarding my claims; I believe they can stand on their own merits . Plus, I have had my fair share of heated debates with you over the years, across different online UB communities. It is non-productive as it has proven to gender contentious debates between us. The other readers are adults. They can decide for themselves the veracity of my claims.

I have nothing more to say to you, now.

Regards.

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Last edited by brooklyn_born on Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:05 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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I sometimes wonder if some human prejudices were inadvertently added to the papers during their compilation... not maliciously, but humanly...

Some things in the Revelation make me wonder this... the talk of the admixture of the races, the omission of may facts on the dinosaurs... other things. Then again, the Authors warn of (at least part of) this saying that much of the scientific presentation is due to be outdated, or was already outdated, even at the time of the presentation.

One explanation may be that we are EXPECTED to do our own homework. There is great danger in being presented all the answers. it makes one complacent.

Thoughts?


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Personally I reject the racial papers. I no longer even post on them as they possess of little spiritual value to me. I do not view them divinely inspired to any significant degree . More than likely there was little to no human concept by which the celestials could translate the race concept to us. And what they were able to use resulted in a grotesque, arguably racist doctrine (eugenics).

The quote to which you refer I think is apropos to this issue.



alwilliams767 wrote:
I sometimes wonder if some human prejudices were inadvertently added to the papers during their compilation... not maliciously, but humanly...

Some things in the Revelation make me wonder this... the talk of the admixture of the races, the omission of may facts on the dinosaurs... other things. Then again, the Authors warn of (at least part of) this saying that much of the scientific presentation is due to be outdated, or was already outdated, even at the time of the presentation.

One explanation may be that we are EXPECTED to do our own homework. There is great danger in being presented all the answers. it makes one complacent.

Thoughts?

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BB, the Urantian Gnostic606


Last edited by brooklyn_born on Tue Aug 28, 2018 6:27 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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