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Sorry SEla....but no part of your so called theory comes from the UB except terms and concepts unique to the UB which come to us with clear definitions and descriptions. You cannot co-opt terms and then twist, distort, change, compromise, and corrupt them with your own definitions to serve your own fantasies and personal reality constructs.

Light and life already has a definition.

So does the kingdom of heaven....indeed, this phrase has exhaustive text which instructs us clearly that Jesus used the phrase 5 ways with 5 definitions...not one of which is YOUR definition! Why do you defy such clear teachings and attempt such coy destruction of the author's intentions and words? Are you really unable to understand? Or simply unwilling?


The TA's and their abode and work are very well described. They do not create Paradise in the breast of anyone or create communities of the children of time.

You say: "I may have imbellished the teachings but I do wish to honour them and correct my views according to the actuality of the intentions of the Authors."


If you are sincere, then quit changing concepts and definitions SEla....it is deceitful, disingenuous, and a falsification of the UB...it makes you appear more like a parasite and charlatan....and less than a friend of the UB, its authors, or the community! You merely demonstrate personal arrogance.

Your theories are actually fanciful opinions...which contradict that which we study and share here.

If you wish to "correct" your views according to the actuality of the intentions of the authors, you should begin with what they wrote don't you think? Are you confused about what they clearly and redundantly wrote on these issues? Do you believe their stated intention of reducing confusions and eliminating errors? Do you disbelieve the teachings? Do you think them written in some secret code you decipher? Do you think, like Midi/Caligastia/Ewald that the UB is intended to deceive us?

Would you like to study how the Jesusonian Gospel is one of assurance and poise and joy and happiness and delivers the fruits of the Spirit....and not about agony at all? Or would you like to study conscious?sness and the superconscious and better understand how the spirit led and religious life interfaces with our consciousness....as life is not at all unconscious as you claim.

Why do you ignore so many issues raised for discussion and consideration and the teachings we share here? You don't really care about the UB teachings do you?

It's fine if you do not believe what is written in the UB SEla....it is not okay to change what is written!!!

Your personal inventions and fantasies of universe reality are not what we study here. Your contradictions of the UB are innumerable....and you refuse to reply to text posted and contradictions articulated. What's up with that? You may begin with a definition of "partate"....a non-word by any dictionary I can find. A made up word which means what exactly? Please source it and define it. And where does the TA abide and work?

If you cannot cite UB references or utilize UB definitions for UB terms and concepts, you only manage to offer us a mumbo jumbo fantasy of self invention and irrelevancy. A thorough self destruction of your own credibility IMO. A demonstration of motive and agenda that is unworthy of TruthBook.

=; :-$ :-# :(

8)
.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Jun 10, 2018 3:41 pm +0000, edited 4 times in total.

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To nodAmanaV...

I see here that you have posted a completely irrelevant video. I don't know your purpose for it (maybe you could enlighten me), but if you prove yourself to be disruptive here, you will be suspended.

MaryJo


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Jim: Well I say "seeming agony". We also have this term "Agondonter" which in the Urantia Papers "one who comes from a rebellion-torn planet who has reached ascender-status and will become Finaliter". Or as I see it, "one who dons the agony of the grand universe".


SeLa: Let's look at Agondonter a little more closely. Since the revelation is presented in English we may best understand this by looking at the underlying roots. "Agon" means struggle, usually against an adversary, and "donter" refers to "vanquished", as in one who has ended the struggle. Personally I like your use of the word agony, but I add the insight that the experience of "vanquishing" the struggle is anything but an agony. It is in fact the opposite, the greatest experience of life. As I stated earlier, the success of spiritual achievement, actual personal growth in the realization of spirit reality, however minuscule that might seem when compared to our expectations, is the true joy of life which makes the "agony" word and common concept, pale in comparison. It is certain that the struggle seems like agony at times but "joy comes in the mourning". Jesus refers to this in his Ordination Sermon and elsewhere where he comments on the struggle but he always includes the view from the top of the mountain as a reminder that our identification with spiritual success is to be our mantra.

Jim


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Agony is not a root word for anything but is a derivative of a root word - agon - and Agondonter does not derive from the word agony...as Jim points out. Agon is the root word and a very interesting one too!

noun, plural a·go·nes [uh-goh-neez] /əˈgoʊ niz/.

(in ancient Greece) a contest in which prizes were awarded in any of a number of events, as athletics, drama, music, poetry, and painting.

(italics) Greek. (in ancient Greek drama) a formalized debate or argumentation, especially in comedy: usually following the proagon and preceding the parabasis.

Literature. conflict, especially between the protagonist and the antagonist.

Origin of agon
First recorded in 1650–60, agon is from the Greek word agṓn struggle, contest

Sociopolitical theory[edit]
In sociopolitical theory, agon can refer to the idea that the clash of opposing forces necessarily results in growth and progress.


SEla says above: "Well I say "seeming agony". We also have this term "Agondonter" which in the Urantia Papers "one who comes from a rebellion-torn planet who has reached ascender-status and will become Finaliter". Or as I see it, "one who dons the agony of the grand universe"."

So....SEla....not only are you attempting to change the definitions of words and concepts original to the UB but you are also attempting the same for words with dictionary definitions. There is no such thing as "the agony of the grand universe"!!!

50:7.2 (579.1) On Jerusem the ascenders from these isolated worlds occupy a residential sector by themselves and are known as the agondonters, meaning evolutionary will creatures who can believe without seeing, persevere when isolated, and triumph over insuperable difficulties even when alone....

50:7.3 (579.2) All through the Paradise career, reward follows effort as the result of causes. Such rewards set off the individual from the average, provide a differential of creature experience, and contribute to the versatility of ultimate performances in the collective body of the finaliters.

Me here: please note the correlation between "agon" defined above and Agondonter in the text.


8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:


So, Nod posted this in response to Bradly's point that Jim George's "[..] suggestions and theory are not supported by the teachings we share and study here together."

What is the hidden UB-related message you wanted to convey via music video rather than text, so as to avoid causing offense or hurting feelings? Is it contained in the lyrics, or the band name, of the music video you posted, perhaps?

Driven to Tears
performed by The Police

How can you say that your not responsible?
What does it have to do with me?
What is my reaction?
What should it be?
Confronted by this latest atrocity
Driven to tears
Driven to tears
Driven to tears
Hide my face in my hands, shame wells in my throat
My comfortable existence is reduced
To a shallow, meaningless party
Seems that when some innocents die
All we can offer them is a page in a some magazine
Too many cam'ras and not enough food
Cause this is what we've seen
Driven to tears


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I think I covered that in my post from yesterday.

I hope the meaning of the whole thing, why I posted the video, why I don't feel posting anymore lends itself to being appealling to new reader non-members who might chance to visit this forum, when the regular response to me is what it always is.

Let me add the last verse that was left out in your post Agon.

Protest is futile
Nothing seems to get through
What's to become of our world?
Who knows what to do?
Driven to tears


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"Protest is futile
Nothing seems to get through
What's to become of our world?
Who knows what to do?
Driven to tears"

I can think of nothing more antithetical to the teachings of TUB than the stanza Nod posted, above. If Nod's intent is to make this forum appealing to new reader non-members who may chance to visit this forum, I don't think this accomplishes that.

Always remember what Jesus told the Young Man Who Was Afraid
Quote:
130:6.3 (1437.3) Said Jesus: “My friend, arise! Stand up like a man! You may be surrounded with small enemies and be retarded by many obstacles, but the big things and the real things of this world and the universe are on your side. ....


It goes on, but this gives the main idea ... concluding with:

Quote:
Arise, young man! Say farewell to the life of cringing fear and fleeing cowardice. Hasten back to duty and live your life in the flesh as a son of God, a mortal dedicated to the ennobling service of man on earth and destined to the superb and eternal service of God in eternity.”


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Thanks Jim.

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to the underlaying unity of all life
so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


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SEla,

I did not intend to side track this discussion by focusing on the "agony" word so I would make a comment on your opening.

Quote:
This topic introduces my theory, that Jesus' work was not only to teach mankind how to live righteously, but to open our minds' to the reality of heaven. Actually to restore or actually to bring forth the pattern of paradise from within each of our hearts. 

We do not do enough to teach the tenets of the central universe, unless we go so far as to internalise the reality of tripartate  and omnipartate  matter-structure of Havona and Paradise (we are situated in the dualpartate type of matter-structure). 


Specifically I am addressing "Jesus' work was not only to teach mankind how to live righteously, but to open our minds' to the reality of heaven."

How humanly we look at things. We seem to spend countless hours attempting to describe the reality we perceive with little or no thought to the possibility that he who we claim to follow, Jesus, an incarnate Paradise Creator Son of God, had/has a myriad of alternate views of reality he hopes we will become aware of. I accept your suggestion to explore the pattern of structure of the universe as a reflection of our inner structure but caution against the practice of anthropomorphizing even that. Accepting God's insights requires my steadfast attention to my own tendencies to claim the knowledge as my own, an act that shunts the energy of my intent and reduces the result to meaninglessness. My attempt in these endeavors is to seek reality by recognition of value rather than by understanding of meaning. Spiritual reveals value while intellectual only reveals meaning. I practice the practice of remembering reality has for humans, three distinct and separate opportunities to appreciate, fact, idea and relation; thing, meaning and value. If we maintain a constant vigil in perceiving those in balance we may just begin to realize what Jesus is trying to say to us.

Jim


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Jim says above: "My attempt in these endeavors is to seek reality by recognition of value rather than by understanding of meaning. Spiritual reveals value while intellectual only reveals meaning."


Interesting. I wonder why one might think you even can seek or find or know reality by "recognition of value rather than by understanding of meaning"? Can these be separated somehow? Is there value without meanings? Isn't reality an integration and harmonization of fact, meaning, and value?

Mind is the source of meaning and who is the source of mind? The Third Source and Center, the Infinite Spirit, the Conjoint Actor, AND God the Spirit - all names for the same Deity/Personality of the Paradise Trinity (see Paper 9 & 10).

One who seeks meanings does not forsake values. And the one who seeks values cannot forsake meanings and actually discover value either.

9:0.4 [Part I]
Throughout the universes the agencies of the Conjoint Actor ceaselessly manipulate the forces and energies of all space. Like the First Source and Center, the Third is responsive to both the spiritual and the material. The Conjoint Actor is the revelation of the unity of God, in whom all things consist — things, meanings, and values; energies, minds, and spirits.

9:1.4 [Part I]
The Universal Father presides over the realms of pre-energy, prespirit, and personality; the Eternal Son dominates the spheres of spiritual activities; the presence of the Isle of Paradise unifies the domain of physical energy and materializing power; the Conjoint Actor operates not only as an infinite spirit representing the Son but also as a universal manipulator of the forces and energies of Paradise, thus bringing into existence the universal and absolute mind. The Conjoint Actor functions throughout the grand universe as a positive and distinct personality, especially in the higher spheres of spiritual values, physical-energy relationships, and true mind meanings. He functions specifically wherever and whenever energy and spirit associate and interact; he dominates all reactions with mind, wields great power in the spiritual world, and exerts a mighty influence over energy and matter. At all times the Third Source is expressive of the nature of the First Source and Center.


9:4.6 [Part I]
Mind transmutes the values of spirit into the meanings of intellect; volition has power to bring the meanings of mind to fruit in both the material and spiritual domains. The Paradise ascent involves a relative and differential growth in spirit, mind, and energy. The personality is the unifier of these components of experiential individuality.

Me here: Indeed, the attempt to unravel these 3 elements of personalized experience is to weaken the results and to defy unity and harmony and balance and integration - the very goal and task of reality and experiential wisdom. To seek one over the others is irrational we are told. It is to choose mono-vision or a one-eyed perspective of reality over the more powerful and real stereoscopic vision available to us.

16:6.10 [Part I]
In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man's experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

16:7.8 [Part I]
Man's moral nature would be impotent without the art of measurement, the discrimination embodied in his ability to scrutinize meanings. Likewise would moral choosing be futile without that cosmic insight which yields the consciousness of spiritual values. From the standpoint of intelligence, man ascends to the level of a moral being because he is endowed with personality.

100:1.7 [Part III]
Religion cannot be bestowed, received, loaned, learned, or lost. It is a personal experience which grows proportionally to the growing quest for final values. Cosmic growth thus attends on the accumulation of meanings and the ever-expanding elevation of values. But nobility itself is always an unconscious growth.

100:1.8 [Part III]
Religious habits of thinking and acting are contributory to the economy of spiritual growth. One can develop religious predispositions toward favorable reaction to spiritual stimuli, a sort of conditioned spiritual reflex. Habits which favor religious growth embrace cultivated sensitivity to divine values, recognition of religious living in others, reflective meditation on cosmic meanings, worshipful problem solving, sharing one's spiritual life with one's fellows, avoidance of selfishness, refusal to presume on divine mercy, living as in the presence of God. The factors of religious growth may be intentional, but the growth itself is unvaryingly unconscious.

100:2.2 [Part III]
Spiritual growth is first an awakening to needs, next a discernment of meanings, and then a discovery of values. The evidence of true spiritual development consists in the exhibition of a human personality motivated by love, activated by unselfish ministry, and dominated by the wholehearted worship of the perfection ideals of divinity. And this entire experience constitutes the reality of religion as contrasted with mere theological beliefs.

Me here: Indeed...we may NOT discover values without discerning meanings....first.

This is the problem with SEla's "theory"....it ignores facts and their meanings to propose and perpetuate a fantasy without meaning OR value related to the reality presented in the UB!! It is unreal and unrelated to reality as presented in the UB and attempts to ignore facts and meanings well established by the UB. Again...it is fine to believe whatever you will and create fantasies in support of and which articulate one's beliefs....but we gather here to study a specific source and discover a well articulated set of knowledge, meanings, and values....not personal fantasies which defy and contradict the source and set of what we share here.

This is what the human mind does when it lacks knowledge and facts...it invents them. Just please also invent your own terms and concepts for your own definitions and fantasies rather than steal terms and concepts from the UB for misrepresentation and falsification to support such fantasies of invention....there is no value without meanings....and the terms chosen by SEla already have specific and well defined meanings. There is no meaning or value in such a fantasy here. Thanks anyway.

We study here that which claims to be given to us to eliminate confusions and errors of knowledge and fact to better discover true meanings and values. One does not need to believe the claims made but it is grave error to purposely distort and defy the facts presented (which can ONLY create confusion and promote error) when at a site which exists for the express purpose of the STUDY of those facts, meanings, and values.

And there is no value without meanings either. Just sayin'...... 8)


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Spirit reveals value, that is in the potential. "Intellectual finds meaning" refers contrastively to the actuality instance of human experience.

I guess you are warning me, about anthropomorphization, that even if I think I am identifying with the grand universe, that I would begin to apply attributes unto it which are mere actual human qualities. Well, I guess that is why religion must pertain to the experiences of the individual rather than the group. I am not thinking just of the manifest universe kingdom of Satania that we live in though, Jim. I am thinking of "the life that Jesus had, before this life began", and the universe as it were before the dawn of creation. I want the chance to create, even as the Universal Father creates, inasmuch as I could return to such a pure estate so as to produce (or create) something original.

Look at what the Urantia Book says, fanofVan: Paradise is at the core of the central universe. Paradise gravity is a separate condition than material gravity. Have you ever seen a child or a woman who has Paradise gravity I have. And I really believe in the opening of one's heart so as to allow the streams of grace actually from the core of another's being. I know what it is to have been prayed for. I think that God is actually able to create Paradise inside of us. And that as this occurs, we become reflections of him because we actually housed all of the semi-physical components necessary for the central universe to operate (in your morontial estate). We needed to learn about the functionality of Havona because there are inner components of ours that become saturated with the adjutant spirits and eventually compatible with the central universe.

Look at what the Urantia Book says. Why would we need such a detailed map of the inroads towards Orvonton? It is not disproven nor forbidden for me believe that "by becoming perfect, even as God is perfect", we(each) is creating a new colony (inside our heart(s)) that resembles Paradise, and allowing us to represent the grand universe rather than only Urantia citizen.

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so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


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I want the chance to create, even as the Universal Father creates, inasmuch as I could return to such a pure estate so as to produce (or create) something original.


In this statement I hear the desire of your heart. What does our Father offer us that will satisfy such a dream and desire? Our soul! The perfect joint creation of the incredible partnership between man and God.

So you have properly perceived that my comments thus far have been intended to call attention to our human inability to produce and present to God something of value, to either ourselves or Him, other than our will to do his will and our commitment to that.

And that is what the Urantia Book says as well.

Jim


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Thanks Jim for taking this conversation to a more rational direction for us!!

SEla - you have yet to offer a definition of the term "partate" nor have you acknowledged the UB definitions for kingdom of heaven or light and life which contradict your own inventions.


It is my hope that you might begin to show some interest in actually learning and discussing what the UB teaches SEla, for you offer so many contradictions of misunderstanding and misrepresentation and do so without any queries as to the facts, terms, and meanings available in the text for anyone who truly attends here to study and learn the UB. For example, your statement (and not a question):


"We needed to learn about the functionality of Havona because there are inner components of ours that become saturated with the adjutant spirits and eventually compatible with the central universe."

Be advised that it is only the soul that might be "saturated" with the Spirit but the soul is not ministered to by the Adjutants at all!! The adjutants saturate nothing at all. The Adjutants attend the mortal mind pre-soul and the mortal mind after the birth of soul but NOT the soul itself which is morontial and its growth is due to our acts of faith and the revelation of truth by the TA, Holy Spirit (the source of the adjutants but not the adjutants and far more than the adjutants), and the Spirit of Truth. Adjutants are evolutionary ministers. The 3 Spirits are revelationary or revelatory ministers. As the soul grows and we make circle progress and we transfer the seat of our identity, we are weaned away from the Adjutants who have no ministry or relationship to us except on this world of our origin. Papers 100-103 offer a comprehensive description of this fact and these relationships....for those who care to know what the UB teaches!

You see...again you confuse terms and issues by your declarative statements which contradict the UB!

To Jim's point:

1:1.2 [Part I]
The Universal Father never imposes any form of arbitrary recognition, formal worship, or slavish service upon the intelligent will creatures of the universes. The evolutionary inhabitants of the worlds of time and space must of themselves — in their own hearts — recognize, love, and voluntarily worship him. The Creator refuses to coerce or compel the submission of the spiritual free wills of his material creatures. The affectionate dedication of the human will to the doing of the Father's will is man's choicest gift to God; in fact, such a consecration of creature will constitutes man's only possible gift of true value to the Paradise Father. In God, man lives, moves, and has his being; there is nothing which man can give to God except this choosing to abide by the Father's will, and such decisions, effected by the intelligent will creatures of the universes, constitute the reality of that true worship which is so satisfying to the love-dominated nature of the Creator Father.


This gift of our will does, as Jim says, co-create SOUL in this mortal life on this world of origin. We co-create soul with the God Fragment within.


We also have the chance for cocreating by Trinitization - see Paper 22, Section 7. And our destiny as Finaliters is also cocreative.


We may also cocreate by our personalized expressions of truth, beauty, and goodness and all expressions of loving service are also joint presentations of our experience with God/Spirit. We are nothing without God. We can do nothing without God. Everything we do that has any value or meaning of a real or eternal nature is an expression of our relationship with God. We cannot create....we may only cocreate and express our experience with God.


You say "Look at what the UB says." I wish you would!!! You are not now and will never create "a new colony (inside our heart) that resembles Paradise, and allowing us to represent the grand universe...."


We may give birth to soul and grow soul and dedicate our will to God's and love God and serve one another. But this body is oh so temporary on the Pilgrim's Path to Paradise. It is but a vehicle for mind and soul. No need for your inventions and fantasies SEla....life is glorious enough as described. Again....you may believe whatever you wish....just don't claim the UB teaches or supports your fantasy! I have no interest in or ability to "disprove" your beliefs SEla….but I will continue to point out your obvious contradictions and misrepresentations of the UB....the very reason for this website....to discuss and learn the contents of the UB.


But if you'd like to truly and sincerely study the Papers.....well that's what we are here for!! Going forward, when you say "Look at what the UB says..." - please actually post WHAT THE UB SAYS to help understand your point and encourage discussion of what it does say. Thank you! I look forward to every opportunity to consider the facts and knowledge offered by the teachings and to learn to discern the meanings thereby and to then better realize truth and find value!!

Bradly 8)


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I appreciate the opportunity to consider "Paradise Gravity". Yet another term original to the UB you appear to misunderstand. Please see Paper 11, Section 8 for the definition and description of Paradise Gravity. It is a non-spiritual universe force - not a "condition" at all. Neither are mind or spirit gravity "conditions".

Again, nonsensical and contradictory. So far, you seem not to understand a single UB term or concept presented in this topic, nor do you appear to care to learn or understand the UB or discuss its actual contents...only to twist, torment, defy, and contradict every term so far. What's up with that???!!!

What's your motive and agenda here?

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I am a soul. I do not understand how you could say God made me that, a soul. God gave me the Thought Adjuster, of much of himself as he could/can I suppose. Without God, I have no grasp of the Paradise Gravity. I think that people whose hearts are pure accumulate the energy sources for many blessings, an interweaving of the adjutant forces to act as an undernetting which holds truly spiritual operants.



MidiChlorian has already explained usage of "bipartate", "tripartate", "unipartate" for you, even identifying the syllabic meanings.

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