Death of John the Baptist - page 1 | Urantia Book Forum |

Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Fri Aug 17, 2018 6:15 am +0000

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:45 pm +0000
Posts: 10
Location: Minnesota, USA
So as I was reading from a work called The Antiquities of the Jews, written by Flavius Josephus about 93 AD. This book records his perspective on the Jewish-Roman war of the late 60s to early 70s AD, along with a few events taking place in Palestine around that time. Most of you have probably heard about Josephus, mostly because he seems to be the go-to guy for a historic perspective on Jesus, even though from what I've read he hasn't much to say. That can be talked about later, because one figure Josephus does talk about is John the Baptist. In fact, Josephus hinges Herod Antipas' humiliating loss of the war with the Nabateans entirely on the premise that God was angry with him for killing the prophet.

Okay, cool. But where are you going with this? you ask. What I'm trying to get at is that the text says this about John the Baptist:
Quote:
[18.116] Now some of the Jews thought that the destruction of Herod's army came from God as a just punishment of what Herod had done against John, who was called the Baptist's death:
[18.117] For Herod had killed this good man, who had commanded the Jews to exercise virtue, righteousness towards one another and piety towards God. For only thus, in John's opinion, would the baptism he administered be acceptable to God, namely, if they used it to obtain not pardon for some sins but rather the cleansing of their bodies, inasmuch as it was taken for granted that their souls had already been purified by justice.
[18.118] Now many people came in crowds to him, for they were greatly moved by his words. Herod, who feared that the great influence John had over the masses might put them into his power and enable him to raise a rebellion (for they seemed ready to do anything he should advise), thought it best to put him to death. In this way, he might prevent any mischief John might cause, and not bring himself into difficulties by sparing a man who might make him repent of it when it would be too late.
[18.119] Accordingly John was sent as a prisoner, out of Herod's suspicious temper, to Macherus, the castle I already mentioned, and was put to death. Now the Jews thought that the destruction of his army was sent as a punishment upon Herod, and a mark of God's displeasure with him.

Based on Antiquities' assumption that Philip (Antipas' brother) was already dead, we can reasonably assume that Josephus places the events of the Nabatean-Herodian War at about 34-36 AD, with John the Baptist's death happening not long before that. But the Urantia Book implies that John was executed around 27-28 AD, judging by his influence on Jesus' ministry from prison in Machaerus. Add that to most Christian traditions holding that Jesus died around 33 AD at around thirty years old. How can this be, if according to Josephus, John died four to six years after the commonly-believed date of death of the Savior?

My point is, how can we reconcile history with Urantia? I'm not saying this as an unbeliever, but as a person new to the Book's presentation of the historical background of Jesus' mission.

_________________
"He who comes to me shall not hunger, while he who believes me shall never thirst." [∴ 153:2.8]


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2334
The authors of the UB claim their historical record is accurate and will stand the tests of time. One cannot prove this to be true or false. There is that which disagrees and conflicts with the UB. What's one to do with that?

Depends on the student. Some have difficulty laying aside preconceptions and beliefs and some side with current science theories or someone else's historical record.

It's a pickle!! At least for some.

I wonder if it matters so much?

Keep readin'............... :wink: :biggrin: 8)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:45 pm +0000
Posts: 10
Location: Minnesota, USA
I guess you're right. When I looked again at the Josephus text, nowhere does it actually give a date for John the Baptist's death, which means that we can easily put in line with UB's historical record.

_________________
"He who comes to me shall not hunger, while he who believes me shall never thirst." [∴ 153:2.8]


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2334
Your pursuit of knowledge is commendable. Facts are important to the seeker, as are truths. Understanding how things work helps us to learn why things are as they are. The UB says that the true quest is finding meaning and value in our knowledge and understanding. Concepts deliver context for the construction of one's perspective to reality. The accuracy of our facts is important.

Not everything claimed to be true is a fact however. Does the sun rise in the east and set in the west. Apparently. Obviously. But factually? No. It took humanity nearly a million years to disproof this so called but false fact, which many people still repeat today. Science is the pursuit of factual observation, measurement, and explanation for phenomena observed. The scientific method finally discovered that the earth spins upon an axis and this delivers what we call sunrise and sunset as our horizon spins toward the sun. This changed perspective and gave new meanings to sunrise and sunset. Our whole paradigm of reality shifted profoundly!! As did the ideas of motion and gravity and light!!

The UB applauds the scientific method and its relentless pursuit of fact and the knowledge of the origin of things and the motion of things and the construction of things and the interaction and interdependence of things and how all things work together and why as well as how. For the UB student knows for certain that science and religion are on the same quest...to find God...even if some religionists and some scientists think their beliefs and pursuits are completely contradictory....they are not.

111:6.6 (1222.5) Science is the source of facts, and mind cannot operate without facts. They are the building blocks in the construction of wisdom which are cemented together by life experience. Man can find the love of God without facts, and man can discover the laws of God without love, but man can never begin to appreciate the infinite symmetry, the supernal harmony, the exquisite repleteness of the all-inclusive nature of the First Source and Center until he has found divine law and divine love and has experientially unified these in his own evolving cosmic philosophy.

111:6.7 (1222.6) The expansion of material knowledge permits a greater intellectual appreciation of the meanings of ideas and the values of ideals. A human being can find truth in his inner experience, but he needs a clear knowledge of facts to apply his personal discovery of truth to the ruthlessly practical demands of everyday life.

So I hope you will not be discouraged when some facts or that believed to be factual conflicts or contradicts with your own preconceptions or with the words in the UB....further information/facts/knowledge may explain that. Or, perhaps, their is meaning and value to be discovered regardless of the apparent conflict?

For example, in this case, no matter any conflict which may exist, perhaps the fact that there is additional historical corroboration of John's life and ministry is exciting enough?! Perhaps there is meaning therein and value thereby? And what if that record were found to be false or unreliable? Does that change history and reality? No.

Science, by the method, claims much is true and fact by its theories which the method then proves to be false or flawed and then provides sufficient evidence for newer theories which must also and always be adjusted or abandoned as well. That is the method. One cannot become too tied to or defined by current theories if one is to learn more and better about reality.

The UB teaches that ignorance and prejudice are the chief inhibitors of growth. We are all ignorant. But some of us, like you, are comfortably aware of our own lack of knowledge and are eager to learn...curiosity is our friend upon this adventure of learning and understanding!! Prejudice is crippling and blinding for it is the love one has of their current knowledge, understanding, beliefs, facts, and perspective...it causes stagnation and brittleness and intolerance and self importance...pure poison to a knowledge or truth seeker!!

100:1.2 (1094.4) Some persons are too busy to grow and are therefore in grave danger of spiritual fixation. Provision must be made for growth of meanings at differing ages, in successive cultures, and in the passing stages of advancing civilization. The chief inhibitors of growth are prejudice and ignorance.

Me here: Do not become stressed by apparent conflicts or confusions while learning of the world within or the world outside as both offer much that is perplexing and complex and takes time to understand. Old facts and things well known and understood still bring us all new meanings as we discover new and more information and as our lens of view expands and the perspective of each thing has more context which also expands the view of everything. Our mind learns more about the forest and the trees within the forest and we learn to 'see' both the trees and the forest in new ways with more meanings as we study and learn more and more about the trees and the forest. Do they change? No. Our understanding and perspective changes.

100:4.1 (1097.5) Religious living is devoted living, and devoted living is creative living, original and spontaneous. New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns. New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher values connoted in superior meanings.

100:4.2 (1097.6) Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.

(1434.3) 130:4.4 A one-eyed person can never hope to visualize depth of perspective. Neither can single-eyed material scientists nor single-eyed spiritual mystics and allegorists correctly visualize and adequately comprehend the true depths of universe reality. All true values of creature experience are concealed in depth of recognition.

Me here: We must learn to see with both eyes - the material eye and the spirit eye - both contribute to a better vision of reality; for reality encompasses both the material and the spirit worlds of our dual natures. It is up to us to harmonize, balance, and integrate both natures into one person and one reality and one philosophy of living which serves us and helps us manage our life's course here and in the life still to come!!

100:4.5 (1098.2) In the mind’s eye conjure up a picture of one of your primitive ancestors of cave-dwelling times — a short, misshapen, filthy, snarling hulk of a man standing, legs spread, club upraised, breathing hate and animosity as he looks fiercely just ahead. Such a picture hardly depicts the divine dignity of man. But allow us to enlarge the picture. In front of this animated human crouches a saber-toothed tiger. Behind him, a woman and two children. Immediately you recognize that such a picture stands for the beginnings of much that is fine and noble in the human race, but the man is the same in both pictures. Only, in the second sketch you are favored with a widened horizon. You therein discern the motivation of this evolving mortal. His attitude becomes praiseworthy because you understand him. If you could only fathom the motives of your associates, how much better you would understand them. If you could only know your fellows, you would eventually fall in love with them. *

Enjoy your studies!!

:wink: 8)

P.S. Forgot to mention....don't get too cozy with the Big Bang theory. The scientific method is already discovering lots of conflict and apparent contradiction by further observations, measurements, and theories of reality construct. I'd say the BBT and original singularity has passed its half life and shelf life already. Seems that instead, perhaps, lots of little bangs might explain things observed better? Remember that the method is very good at disproving prior theories and making new ones to explain newer and greater tools of observation and measurement. We should love and embrace and depend upon the method....but not the current theories - new knowledge and tools and greater understanding will always deliver newer theories and reality perspective! You will suffer far less disappointment thusly...and also become far more scientific in your own pursuit of knowledge and understanding!

Oh...and embrace uncertainty and discovery....those are the very foundation of adventure!!! :idea: :!:

And Life Is An Adventure!!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 2334
I hope you will not mind if I post text from my first read and favorite part of the UB - The Middle Papers. One of the most important lessons in Part IV, the Jesus Papers, is how he unified and integrated material reality and science (Jesus was VERY scientific and studious) with spiritual insight and truth assurance. Religion In Human Experience and The Real Nature of Religion and The Foundations of Religious Experience and The Realities of Religious Experience (Papers 100-104) are exemplified in the life of Jesus as portrayed in the later Papers. Jesus, the Son of Man, became spiritized and spiritualized in the same way and manner and by the same Spirit ministries of mind and faith assurance and truth assurance as do all of us.

Our pursuit of knowledge and understanding and the integration of fact with meaning and value to formulate perspective and a philosophy of living is a science of its own!! There are functional and factual elements and concepts to learn and understand and incorporate by our thinking to better see reality and live according to its laws and truths (science and religion).

102:0.1 (1118.1) TO THE unbelieving materialist, man is simply an evolutionary accident. His hopes of survival are strung on a figment of mortal imagination; his fears, loves, longings, and beliefs are but the reaction of the incidental juxtaposition of certain lifeless atoms of matter. No display of energy nor expression of trust can carry him beyond the grave. The devotional labors and inspirational genius of the best of men are doomed to be extinguished by death, the long and lonely night of eternal oblivion and soul extinction. Nameless despair is man’s only reward for living and toiling under the temporal sun of mortal existence. Each day of life slowly and surely tightens the grasp of a pitiless doom which a hostile and relentless universe of matter has decreed shall be the crowning insult to everything in human desire which is beautiful, noble, lofty, and good.

102:0.2 (1118.2) But such is not man’s end and eternal destiny; such a vision is but the cry of despair uttered by some wandering soul who has become lost in spiritual darkness, and who bravely struggles on in the face of the mechanistic sophistries of a material philosophy, blinded by the confusion and distortion of a complex learning. And all this doom of darkness and all this destiny of despair are forever dispelled by one brave stretch of faith on the part of the most humble and unlearned of God’s children on earth.

102:0.3 (1118.3) This saving faith has its birth in the human heart when the moral consciousness of man realizes that human values may be translated in mortal experience from the material to the spiritual, from the human to the divine, from time to eternity.

102:1.4 (1119.3) The certainties of science proceed entirely from the intellect; the certitudes of religion spring from the very foundations of the entire personality. Science appeals to the understanding of the mind; religion appeals to the loyalty and devotion of the body, mind, and spirit, even to the whole personality.

102:1.5 (1119.4) God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.

102:1.6 (1119.5) The indwelling Thought Adjuster unfailingly arouses in man’s soul a true and searching hunger for perfection together with a far-reaching curiosity which can be adequately satisfied only by communion with God, the divine source of that Adjuster. The hungry soul of man refuses to be satisfied with anything less than the personal realization of the living God. Whatever more God may be than a high and perfect moral personality, he cannot, in our hungry and finite concept, be anything less.

102:2.5 (1120.2) Even the discoveries of science are not truly real in the consciousness of human experience until they are unraveled and correlated, until their relevant facts actually become meaning through encircuitment in the thought streams of mind. Mortal man views even his physical environment from the mind level, from the perspective of its psychological registry. It is not, therefore, strange that man should place a highly unified interpretation upon the universe and then seek to identify this energy unity of his science with the spirit unity of his religious experience. Mind is unity; mortal consciousness lives on the mind level and perceives the universal realities through the eyes of the mind endowment. The mind perspective will not yield the existential unity of the source of reality, the First Source and Center, but it can and sometime will portray to man the experiential synthesis of energy, mind, and spirit in and as the Supreme Being. But mind can never succeed in this unification of the diversity of reality unless such mind is firmly aware of material things, intellectual meanings, and spiritual values; only in the harmony of the triunity of functional reality is there unity, and only in unity is there the personality satisfaction of the realization of cosmic constancy and consistency.

102:2.6 (1120.3) Unity is best found in human experience through philosophy. And while the body of philosophic thought must ever be founded on material facts, the soul and energy of true philosophic dynamics is mortal spiritual insight.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 710
Hi Adam's son,

This might help sort out the apparent contradiction of facts:

Quote:
136:2.8 (1512.4) (Jesus was almost thirty-one and one-half years old when he was baptized. While Luke says that Jesus was baptized in the fifteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar, which would be A.D. 29 since Augustus died in A.D. 14, it should be recalled that Tiberius was coemperor with Augustus for two and one-half years before the death of Augustus, having had coins struck in his honor in October, A.D. 11. The fifteenth year of his actual rule was, therefore, this very year of A.D. 26, that of Jesus’ baptism. And this was also the year that Pontius Pilate began his rule as governor of Judea.)


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Mon Apr 02, 2018 7:45 pm +0000
Posts: 10
Location: Minnesota, USA
Hi. Riktare. That quote clears this stuff up a lot. Evidently I need to keep reading. Sorry for not replying sooner, I just got on my laptop after school and practice.

_________________
"He who comes to me shall not hunger, while he who believes me shall never thirst." [∴ 153:2.8]


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Apr 13, 2011 5:21 am +0000
Posts: 658
Quote:
how can we reconcile history with Urantia?


there are a number of contradictions and discrepancies between the dates and chronology in josephus' writings and known history, the bible and also within the writings of josephus himself, not just with TUB. i think attempting to reconcile them will yield nothing but a big headache.

probably a lot of confusion arose from hundreds of years of translators trying to reconcile josephus implying that jesus was born before jesus was born. :lol: that is he was born sometime before what later became incorrectly called 1B.C. but the translators didnt know that was incorrect.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Sep 12, 2012 2:07 am +0000
Posts: 710
Certain details about the emperors Augustus and Tiberius seem reasonably well recorded though. Augustus became foster father to Tiberius and allowed him to partly rule in his name in 6 AD. However Tiberius became disinterested in that rulership and left the city for a new mission. But in 13 AD Augustus gave Tiberius a full equal title as emperor where Tiberius had accepted such a role. Apparently a couple of years earlier, 11 AD, Tiberius had returned to Rome to take a more active mission in working closely with Augustus in the leadership of Rome.

P.S. Augustus was no other than "Octavian" in his younger years. The same Octavian who was highlighted in the TV miniseries "Rome".


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 371
The Urantia Papers strongly support the theory that each John and Jesus had their own sects of believers, after the time of the resurrection. I am not referring to Abner & the church of Philadelphia, but Ezra the aloof who broke away from John when Peter was become converted. This is one of the most valid historical links which is culturally traceable. For instance the prophet Muhammad was said to be reared by two women, one individual was the biological mother who was a follower of Jesus' teaching, while the other individual was the aunt who was a follower of John's teaching. We should recognise the notoriety of John during the time of Josephus Flavius, which to Urantia Book readers indicates the preservation of the better traditions of Zacharias and the inhabitants of the City of David.

What you may notice if you study the Nazarene cult of Judaism, and the devotees who lived by mount Hebron, west of the dead Sea, is the idea that John the Baptist was a strict conformist to the Mosaic traditions, and of the traditonal priestly order in Israel. John the Baptist has a rich place in the destiny of the planet because his birth is foretold by Gabriel unto both Elizabeth & Mary ben Jesse. The teachings of John the Baptist therefore call out the virtues of all believing Hebrews, and today the simple extollances have applications upon the public sociological structure, standing in a collectivistic distinction to Jesus' individualistic tradition of having to do the will of his father who is in heaven. You can see the essential benevolence & harmony that John offers not only to Roman & Jew, but to all people of this world. His mission in the destiny of the planet is not only as general observer of the Council of the Four & Twenty, but even in a more metaphorical sense, as one who affords mercy to the courts of law.

_________________
to the underlaying unity of all life
so that the voice of intuition may guide us
closer to our common keeper


Top
 Profile Send private message  
Reply with quote  
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 10 posts ] 

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group