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In a study published March 9 in The Monthly Notices of the Royal Astronomical Society, astronomers announced the discovery that all disk galaxies rotate about once every billion years, no matter their size or mass.

"It’s not Swiss watch precision,” said Gerhardt Meurer, an astronomer from the International Centre for Radio Astronomy Research (ICRAR), in a press release. “But regardless of whether a galaxy is very big or very small, if you could sit on the extreme edge of its disk as it spins, it would take you about a billion years to go all the way round.”

“Discovering such regularity in galaxies really helps us to better understand the mechanics that make them tick,” he said. “You won’t find a dense galaxy rotating quickly, while another with the same size but lower density is rotating more slowly.”

To carry out the study, the researchers determined the radial velocities of neutral hydrogen in the outer disks of a plethora of galaxies — ranging from small dwarf irregulars to massive spirals. These galaxies differed in both size and rotational velocity by up to a factor of 30. With these velocity measurements, the researchers were able to calculate the rotational period of their sample galaxies, which led them to conclude that the outer rims of all disk galaxies take roughly a billion years to complete one rotation. However, the researchers note that further research is required to confirm the clock-like spin rate is a universal trait of disk galaxies and not just a result of selection bias.

Based on theoretical models, the researchers also expected to find only sparse populations of young stars and interstellar gas on the outskirts of these galaxies. But instead, they discovered a significant population of much older stars mingling with the young stars and gas.

“This is an important result because knowing where a galaxy ends means we astronomers can limit our observations and not waste time, effort, and computer processing power on studying data from beyond that point,” said Meurer. “So because of this work, we now know that galaxies rotate once every billion years, with a sharp edge that’s populated with a mixture of interstellar gas [and] both old and young stars.”

Considering new generations of radio telescopes — like the long-anticipated Square Kilometer Array (SKA) — will produce massive amounts of data, the fact that researchers now have a good idea where a galaxy’s edge lies should also help them significantly reduce the power required to sort through such data.

“When the SKA comes online in the next decade,” Meurer said, “we’ll need as much help as we can get to characterize the billions of galaxies these telescopes will soon make available to us.


i thought this was interesting since the space expansion and contraction cycles are a billion years...more order and equilibrium they cant explain. recall its the unexpected, non-newtonian rotation speed of galaxies that gave rise to the "dark matter" hypothesis.

research paper here:
Cosmic clocks: A Tight Radius-Velocity Relationship for HI-Selected Galaxies


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Hi Makalu,
Yes, expansion and contraction cycles for the Master Universe takes 2 billion Earth years. But TUB says nothing of the "rotation time" of the Master Universe.

Current science does not acknowledge breathing (expansion and contraction) of either galaxies or atoms, only rotation (spin). If they did, it would go a long way towards explaining the wave vs particle duality. Particle spin alone cannot explain observation. Only if the particle also exhibits spin and breathing can experimental results make sense.

Louis


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the rotation time of the master universe isnt really relevant to what i had in mind and the papers manage to explain wave-like particle behavior without an effect from space respiration just fine...


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Makalu wrote:
the rotation time of the master universe isnt really relevant to what i had in mind and the papers manage to explain wave-like particle behavior without an effect from space respiration just fine...


I do not agree. Particles are matter and matter is in space and matter contains space. Space has primary and secondary motion, whether that space is in a particle or in the Master Universe as a whole. A particles of light, or any other form of matter, is a part of the whole. Space moves in the same manner everywhere it exists. Space respiration is the primary motion of space. It is most definitely the explanation of wave-like particle effects. This is part of the revelation of the Papers. It explains what current science does not. The respiration of the space that is contained in matter causes wave-like activity in the force blanket of space.

Consider the case of a ball in a pool. That ball is only spinning then there is not much wave action in the water. But if the ball bobs up and down on the surface of the water, that simulates the ball expanding and contracting. And that action most certainly produces wave activity on the water's surface. The ball is a particle and it can only produce wave activity if it expands and contracts. Meanwhile, science only recognizes particle spin. Science now recognizes space expansion but has not settled on a rotating Universe that cycles (respires) about a center.

It's time that we consider a particle as a self-similar part of the Master Universe. After all, the Ultimaton has Paradise as its nucleus. All motion is the same, spiral.

Louis


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no that is not what the papers say and no one who has read the relevant passages in TUB would think that

goodbye


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I've taken a cursory read through the paper. The authors don't make clear how they determine the rotation rates. It is presumably based on the differential of red/blue doppler shifts from one side of the galaxy to the other. If that is the case then they may have discovered something very interesting about redshifts rather than what they believe they are seeing.

Is Nigel listening in on this?


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Greetings Riktare and Makalu!!

Until Nigel finds this, here's a couple of responses to my post of the article at another site. The authors of the comments will be left out since that site is private and I am copying their private posts....but they might add to your own discussion....I am not educated enough to join however. Cheers to you both!

And I certainly agree with Riktare that science is finding much by observation and measurement that are challenging to current theories delivered by prior observations and measurements!! The scientific method is a most curious form of self-cannibalism that is also progressively accurate in its results. But only by the destruction of its prior assertions and conclusions. As Makalu says, science attempts to explain the unexpected and unexplainable that is newly observable which seems to contradict prior explanations of the unexpectedly observed! What a wonderful process of the discovery of reality - consider its ultimate discoveries and discomforts!!! Hahahahhaa.....

1) "Hi Bradly,

I think it rather speculative that all galaxies might all spin close to the same rate. It is known the Milky Way completes one rotation in about 240 million years, not the one billion years as indicated in the article.

On the supporting side is that the universe might have a rather steady flow of star fuel in the IGM. There is respiration, a likely cause and indicator of gas and matter flowing in some uniform manor. Galaxies require the uniform flow of gas to fuel stars in them. One important issue is how do galaxies form? I think that where two flowing rivers of gas come close together, the magnetic field develops a knot at that location and the field greatly enlarges. Where this enlarged field is, it is flat and is the reason galaxies first form in a flat configuration, being encouraged by the gas flow and the shape of the magnetic field.

Electric and magnetic fields can easily be shown to have these properties in lab work. Some influences come from the plasma (electric) flow and the resulting magnetic fields, but if all flowing gas in the universe were rather uniform in size and motion, then galaxy spin rates would also closely match.

It might very well be that the majority of galaxies spin at such and such a rate, but there are always variations, turmoil, involved also in what seems a natural environment."

2) "The finding seems to be disproven by the time it takes the earth to rotate the galaxy at ~240 million years
the article claims “But regardless of whether a galaxy is very big or very small, if you could sit on the extreme edge of its disk as it spins, it would take you about a billion years to go all the way round.”

All points on an hour hand circle the face in the same amount of time; a 240 million year orbit for Urantia around this galaxy would seem to apply to the whole of the galaxy as its rotational speed, thus contradicting this finding - however closer examination reveals that this finding is of the rotational speed of a galaxies halo - why would a halo have, not only a different rotational speed, but one identical to all other halos??"

:idea: :wink: 8)


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12:4.7 Space is, from the human viewpoint, nothing—negative; it exists only as related to something positive and nonspatial. Space is, however, real. It contains and conditions motion. It even moves. Space motions may be roughly classified as follows:
1. Primary motion—space respiration, the motion of space itself.
2. Secondary motion—the alternate directional swings of the successive space levels.
3. Relative motions—relative in the sense that they are not evaluated with Paradise as a base point. Primary and secondary motions are absolute, motion in relation to unmoving Paradise.
Compensatory or correlating movement designed to co-ordinate all other motions.



12:4.12 The present relationship of your sun and its associated planets, while disclosing many relative and absolute motions in space, tends to convey the impression to astronomic observers that you are comparatively stationary in space, and that the surrounding starry clusters and streams are engaged in outward flight at ever-increasing velocities as your calculations proceed outward in space. But such is not the case. You fail to recognize the present outward and uniform expansion of the physical creations of all pervaded space. Your own local creation (Nebadon) participates in this movement of universal outward expansion. The entire seven superuniverses participate in the two-billion-year cycles of space respiration along with the outer regions of the master universe.

12:1.1 The universe of universes is not an infinite plane, a boundless cube, nor a limitless circle; it certainly has dimensions. The laws of physical organization and administration prove conclusively that the whole vast aggregation of force-energy and matter- power functions ultimately as a space unit, as an organized and co-ordinated whole.

42:3.1 Matter in all universes, excepting in the central universe, is identical. Matter in its physical properties depends on the revolutionary rates of its component members, the number and size of the revolving members, their distance from the nuclear body or the space content of matter, as well as on the presence of certain forces as yet undiscovered on Urantia.

What does TUB mean by "the nuclear body"?

42:1.2 Matter—energy—for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise, The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.

The "nuclear body must be Paradise", no? Doesn't Science think that the atomic nucleus is a collection of protons and neutrons packed closely together by a concoction of 'special' forces? How does a bunch of positively charged protons pack tightly with other same charged protons?

21:2.12   ... lines of power to incarnate as the children of time; still their realms whirl on about their respective centers. No material organization is independent of the absolute-gravity grasp of Paradise or of the cosmic overcontrol inherent in the space presence...


What does TUB mean when they say, "respective centers"? Is there not but one Center? Can it be that all of those centers are one. The Holy Trinity is One and they share a common Center. Visualize the 3 concentric circles.

41:4.2 Gaseous, liquid, and solid states are matters of atomic-molecular relationships, but density is a relationship of space and mass. Density varies directly with the quantity of mass in space and inversely with the amount of space in mass, the space between the central cores of matter and the particles which whirl around these centers as well as the space within such material particles.


Do you think that the space within such material particles moves in the same manner as all other space? Would it not have primary and secondary motion, and would not the material particle need to move in the same way?


57:2.3 700,000,000,000 years ago the Andronover system was assuming gigantic proportions, and additional physical controllers were dispatched to nine surrounding material creations to afford support and supply co-operation to the power centers of this new material system which was so rapidly evolving. At this distant date all of the material bequeathed to the subsequent creations was held within the confines of this gigantic space wheel, which continued ever to whirl and, after reaching its maximum of diameter, to whirl faster and faster as it continued to condense and contract.


58:2.7 Auroral phenomena are directly related to sunspots, those solar cyclones which whirl in opposite directions above and below the solar equator, even as do the terrestrial tropical hurricanes. Such atmospheric disturbances whirl in opposite directions when occurring above or below the equator.

104:4.9 The Second Triunity—the power-pattern triunity. Whether it be a tiny ultimaton, a blazing star, or a whirling nebula, even the central or super universes , from the smallest to the largest material organizations, always is the physical pattern—the cosmic configuration—derived from the function of this triunity. This association consists of:

What is TUB telling us about the physical pattern, from the ultimaton and even the Central Universe?


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hi Riktare, i think the velocity is inferred by the width of the spectral line of each data point but otherwise yeah lol

hi Bradley, well yeah its way too early to say that all galaxies exhibit the same behavior. but our solar system is no where near the outer edge of the milky way though as shown here:

Image

and since they recently discovered the andromeda galaxy was twice is big as they thought its believed the same may be true for the milky way.

(and the study does not say that all halos rotate at the same speed as one poster there suggests...quite the opposite)


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Hi Louis,

toto wrote:
The "nuclear body must be Paradise", no? Doesn't Science think that the atomic nucleus is a collection of protons and neutrons packed closely together by a concoction of 'special' forces? How does a bunch of positively charged protons pack tightly with other same charged protons?


Wouldn't that be because of the "certain forces as yet undiscovered on Urantia?"


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toto wrote:
42:3.1 Matter in all universes, excepting in the central universe, is identical. Matter in its physical properties depends on the revolutionary rates of its component members, the number and size of the revolving members, their distance from the nuclear body or the space content of matter, as well as on the presence of certain forces as yet undiscovered on Urantia.

What does TUB mean by "the nuclear body"?

42:1.2 Matter—energy—for they are but diverse manifestations of the same cosmic reality, as a universe phenomenon is inherent in the Universal Father. “In him all things consist.” Matter may appear to manifest inherent energy and to exhibit self-contained powers, but the lines of gravity involved in the energies concerned in all these physical phenomena are derived from, and are dependent on, Paradise, The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus.

The "nuclear body must be Paradise", no? Doesn't Science think that the atomic nucleus is a collection of protons and neutrons packed closely together by a concoction of 'special' forces? How does a bunch of positively charged protons pack tightly with other same charged protons?

Toto indicates that ‘“nuclear body must be Paradise”, no?’ -- actually from my understanding of “nuclear body” as used in the UB and using the instructions as posted in the UB to look up definition of words used within the context of the narration, “nuclear” indicates “nucleus” - (“a central part about which other parts are grouped or gathered; core”) and “body” indicates “a mass” - (“Physics. a mass, especially one considered as a whole.”)

Where yes, it could be considered “Paradise”, if one would consider paradise as the nucleus of a nucleus, as defined in the UB, but one must consider that “Paradise” is the mid-point between spaces where one space is material and the other spiritual or in this case, for a better word or definition anti-space which is infinitesimal in size and overlaps material space.
As indicated in the UB quotes above that “the first measurable form of energy” is the “ultimaton”, therefore, the nucleus of an “ultimaton” is the threshold to non-energy or non-space of infinity’s core of creation.

I'm sorry that this posts content is off topic, but could relate to the topic in general.
However, if there is a period of time where Galaxies rotate and this rotation is a result of respiration then when respiration reverses would this cause rotation to change? Where as indicated in the OP, could the rotation or expansion of Galaxies cause us to see what might be considered as "dark matter" as opposed to "light matter" or visible matter?

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nodAmanaV wrote:
Wouldn't that be because of the "certain forces as yet undiscovered on Urantia?"


Hi Enno, I'm sorry to mislead. The forces of which I speak are the electroweak and electrostrong forces that physics theorizes exist and are at play in the cohesion of packed protons in the nucleus of the current model of atomic theory.


MidiChlorian wrote:
As indicated in the UB quotes above that “the first measurable form of energy” is the “ultimaton”, therefore, the nucleus of an “ultimaton” is the threshold to non-energy or non-space of infinity’s core of creation.


Hi Midi

I'm not certain of your meaning here. I can see that the nuclear region is the threshold of non-space, as Paradise is non-spacial, but a threshold to non-energy is a problem for me. I understand Paradise as the source of all physical creation. Therefore, it serves as the receiver and the transmitter of all cycled energies in the Master Universe. Havona is configured as the perfect antenna for such purposes. In fact, optimal antenna gains have recently been discovered using Archimedean spiral configurations that are elliptical, much like the circuits of Havona. (IEEE)

MidiChlorian wrote:
However, if there is a period of time where Galaxies rotate and this rotation is a result of respiration then when respiration reverses would this cause rotation to change? Where as indicated in the OP, could the rotation or expansion of Galaxies cause us to see what might be considered as "dark matter" as opposed to "light matter" or visible matter?


As I understand rotation and respiration, they combine to form a spiral motion. The expansion is a spiraling out and the contraction is a spiraling inward. These directions keep rotating in the same manner, either clockwise or counterclockwise. But all motion must be balanced and that is why there are different levels of counter rotating space levels. These are the relative motions of space. So, respirations and rotations are simultaneous. In the case of a galaxy, there are spiral arms that are contracting and others that are expanding, keeping the whole motion of the galaxy balance, just like the counter rotating space levels of the Master Universe balances it total motion. Those contracting portions are dark and those stars are charging. Those expanding portions are radiating light and are discharging their star energy and we can see that.

My real point is to bring to light the fact that there can only be one center for everything and anything that moves in the Universe. There is only one Paradise. But Paradise can be at all centers of motion, simultaneously, because is is outside of space itself. In this way it can pervade space and not be a part of it. Paradise can pervade space and not invade space, just as the Unqualified Absolute does.

The Ultimaton must spiral, respire and rotate, just as a galaxy must. A galaxy can have its stars rotate about its center spiral while simultaneously expand and contract. This is the very definition of a spiral.

Louis


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toto wrote:

MidiChlorian wrote:
As indicated in the UB quotes above that “the first measurable form of energy” is the “ultimaton”, therefore, the nucleus of an “ultimaton” is the threshold to non-energy or non-space of infinity’s core of creation.


Hi Midi

I'm not certain of your meaning here. I can see that the nuclear region is the threshold of non-space, as Paradise is non-spacial, but a threshold to non-energy is a problem for me. I understand Paradise as the source of all physical creation. Therefore, it serves as the receiver and the transmitter of all cycled energies in the Master Universe. Havona is configured as the perfect antenna for such purposes. In fact, optimal antenna gains have recently been discovered using Archimedean spiral configurations that are elliptical, much like the circuits of Havona. (IEEE)

I can understand your confusion because you seem to misunderstand what the UB is attempting to present when it attempts to describe paradise in that it does not exist anywhere but is everywhere.
Find in the UB where it indicates how many ultimaton's there are and then confirm that the ultimaton is a component of the electron and when these ultimatons huddle they are considered as neutral and not positive nor negative energy, they are non-energy. If paradise is the nucleus of the energy produced from ultimatons then paradise can also be coincided as the nucleus of an electron. "Annihilation" -- "is the process that occurs when a subatomic particle collides with its respective antiparticle to produce other particles, such as an electron colliding with a positron to produce two photons. The total energy and momentum of the initial pair are conserved in the process and distributed among a set of other particles in the final state." When there is no momentum or while in "non-space of infinity's core of creation" (the paradise nucleus) energy and the various particles are neutral and have not real mass. One must have an Electron and its anti-particle in order to create matter and the components of the electron - ultimatons - and their variations and mixtures would create this anti-particle and then matter or an atom.
The process described in the UB for the function of paradise also describes the creation process.
When one split the atom it it destroyed, the UB describes what happens in order to create that atom.

Also, I must now expand one of the terms that I used above "threshold" and replace it with event-horizon, which would better describe that there is a process involved and that is where you seem to interject the spiral effect but only in one direction as described in the UB.

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Hi Ewald,

MidiChlorian wrote:
I can understand your confusion because you seem to misunderstand what the UB is attempting to present when it attempts to describe paradise in that it does not exist anywhere but is everywhere.


I may misunderstand many things said in TUB, however, I agree that TUB describes that Paradise does not exist anywhere because it is outside of space, but is everywhere. Outside of Paradise is space and TUB says about space that "space is a system of associated points". These "points" must be the focus of its surrounding space. TUB also says that "Paradise is the focus of space". I would assume that TUB uses Euclidean definitions and a point is defined by Euclid as 'that without parts'. Paradise is without parts for it is a homogenous substance known as Absolutum. Therefore, I concluded that these 'associated points' are one and the same point, the center of space motions. That is what makes them associated because the only relationship possible in the Universe is the Trinity relationship. The concentric circles shows this symbolically, as three circles are self-associated to the one center point by being orthogonal to the radius extending from the center point.


MidiChlorian wrote:
Find in the UB where it indicates how many ultimaton's there are and then confirm that the ultimaton is a component of the electron and when these ultimatons huddle they are considered as neutral and not positive nor negative energy, they are non-energy.


These hundred ultimatons that huddle within the electron are arranged in concentric energy shells. This hydrogen atom is neutral because of the charge is balanced in a spinning particle in counter-rotation about and below the hemispheres of the particle. The positive and negative are balance in this motion. How can this be non-energy? An atom is not non-energy.


MidiChlorian wrote:
If paradise is the nucleus of the energy produced from ultimatons then paradise can also be coincided as the nucleus of an electron.


Yes, I agree.


MidiChlorian wrote:
One must have an Electron and its anti-particle in order to create matter and the components of the electron - ultimatons - and their variations and mixtures would create this anti-particle and then matter or an atom.


That would certainly be in line with current atomic theory, but I would contend that this is not necessary because the particle and its antiparticle are self-contained and functioning within the one particle. Every rotating particle, sun planet etc., is a counter rotating vortex. This is due to an equator that separates the particle into two. There axis of rotation is the charge separation that creates polarity. This polarity is the source of mass, which is a line. Recall that UB says that "gravity (linear) acts preferentially in the plane perpendicular to mass". Mass cannot be a point mass, it must be a line because a plane can be perpendicular to a line but not a point.


MidiChlorian wrote:
When one split the atom it it destroyed, the UB describes what happens in order to create that atom.


Much as has been described in atomic theory of the splitting of the atom, this cannot happen. An atom cannot be split without affecting the nucleus. The nuclear region is protected by a 'mote' of unique space between the two levels of Gravity bodies that surround Havona. This unique space cannot hold time for it is a special and unique hyperbolic space this is not a time creation. There is only one (unique) hyperbola that cannot geometrically be orthogonal to a circle (time). That is a rectangular hyperbola or Y=1/X, or the inverse function. This is why space is not absolute. Havona space is this kind of space. When this space is penetrated by energies of space-time in the 'mote', the energies of space-time release all of its stored energy all at once and not in quanta. Boom!


MidiChlorian wrote:
Also, I must now expand one of the terms that I used above "threshold" and replace it with event-horizon, which would better describe that there is a process involved and that is where you seem to interject the spiral effect but only in one direction as described in the UB.


I quess one could describe Havona as the threshold or event horizon. But because of the unique non-time space of Havona, the spiral motions of space are no longer logarithmic, but are arithmetic in nature. The Perfect Spheres of Havona proceed in procession and are equally space in seven concentric ellipses. They exhibit no rotation or acceleration. They are perfect and have no charge to them. They are without equators or hemispheres. TUB certainly describes more than one direction. They clockwise and counter-clockwise directions. Mathematically, logarithmic spirals can coexist in counter rotation because they are sinusoidal waves. Just imagine passing a slinky through a second slinky by counter rotating the screwing motion. They do not interfere with each others rotation because they slither past each other.

Dark matter is non radiating matter between the light arms of the galaxy spirals which are in contraction, whereas the arms that at radiating are visible to us. There can be a contacting dark arm coexisting with an expanding light arm without interference because they slither around each other. The entire galaxy is contracting and expanding simultaneously but keeps it overall size. Rotation is realized but respiration is masked. Matter that is contracting towards its center is charging and not radiating. It is Dark Matter.

Midi, see Russell's diagrams


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Makalu - It is most unfortunate that toto has hijacked your, and yet another, topical discussion. His own seem never to attract others or gain traction...and so it seems every topic, no matter how distant from MannySpeak it may be, is targeted for his beliefs.

It's also unfortunate that he continues to contradict, even defy, the UB. This is about the fifth time toto, loucol, Manny, JohnnyBones, Louis, et al, etc., etc. has claimed...."I may misunderstand many things said in TUB, however, I agree that TUB describes that Paradise does not exist anywhere because it is outside of space, but is everywhere."


POPPYCOCK ALERT!!! Louis/toto/etc. still and also misunderstands THIS very elemental and foundational fact, despite making this claim and being corrected multiple times here. So is he stupid??!! Blind??!! Or does his agenda of distortion and defiance of the UB simply not allow his prejudice to acknowledge factual reality as clearly presented in the Revelation??!! What's up with that? Good Grief!

What the UB actually says:

11:0.1 (118.1) PARADISE is the eternal center of the universe of universes and the abiding place of the Universal Father, the Eternal Son, the Infinite Spirit, and their divine co-ordinates and associates. This central Isle is the most gigantic organized body of cosmic reality in all the master universe. Paradise is a material sphere as well as a spiritual abode. All of the intelligent creation of the Universal Father is domiciled on material abodes; hence must the absolute controlling center also be material, literal. And again it should be reiterated that spirit things and spiritual beings are real.

11:0.2 (118.2) The material beauty of Paradise consists in the magnificence of its physical perfection; the grandeur of the Isle of God is exhibited in the superb intellectual accomplishments and mind development of its inhabitants; the glory of the central Isle is shown forth in the infinite endowment of divine spirit personality — the light of life. But the depths of the spiritual beauty and the wonders of this magnificent ensemble are utterly beyond the comprehension of the finite mind of material creatures. The glory and spiritual splendor of the divine abode are impossible of mortal comprehension. And Paradise is from eternity; there are neither records nor traditions respecting the origin of this nuclear Isle of Light and Life.

1. The Divine Residence

11:1.1 (118.3) Paradise serves many purposes in the administration of the universal realms, but to creature beings it exists primarily as the dwelling place of Deity. The personal presence of the Universal Father is resident at the very center of the upper surface of this well-nigh circular, but not spherical, abode of the Deities. This Paradise presence of the Universal Father is immediately surrounded by the personal presence of the Eternal Son, while they are both invested by the unspeakable glory of the Infinite Spirit.

11:1.2 (118.4) God dwells, has dwelt, and everlastingly will dwell in this same central and eternal abode. We have always found him there and always will. The Universal Father is cosmically focalized, spiritually personalized, and geographically resident at this center of the universe of universes.

11:1.3 (118.5) We all know the direct course to pursue to find the Universal Father. You are not able to comprehend much about the divine residence because of its remoteness from you and the immensity of the intervening space, but those who are able to comprehend the meaning of these enormous distances know God’s location and residence just as certainly and literally as you know the location of New York, London, Rome, or Singapore, cities definitely and geographically located on Urantia. If you were an intelligent navigator, equipped with ship, maps, and compass, you could readily find these cities. Likewise, if you had the time and means of passage, were spiritually qualified, and had the necessary guidance, you could be piloted through universe upon universe and from circuit to circuit, ever journeying inward through the starry realms, until at last you would stand before the central shining of the spiritual glory of the Universal Father. Provided with all the necessities for the journey, it is just as possible to find the personal presence of God at the center of all things as to find distant cities on your own planet. That you have not visited these places in no way disproves their reality or actual existence. That so few of the universe creatures have found God on Paradise in no way disproves either the reality of his existence or the actuality of his spiritual person at the center of all things.

11:1.4 (119.1) The Father is always to be found at this central location. Did he move, universal pandemonium would be precipitated, for there converge in him at this residential center the universal lines of gravity from the ends of creation. Whether we trace the personality circuit back through the universes or follow the ascending personalities as they journey inward to the Father; whether we trace the lines of material gravity to nether Paradise or follow the insurging cycles of cosmic force; whether we trace the lines of spiritual gravity to the Eternal Son or follow the inward processional of the Paradise Sons of God; whether we trace out the mind circuits or follow the trillions upon trillions of celestial beings who spring from the Infinite Spirit — by any of these observations or by all of them we are led directly back to the Father’s presence, to his central abode. Here is God personally, literally, and actually present. And from his infinite being there flow the flood-streams of life, energy, and personality to all universes.

The rest of this Paper certainly continues its description of Paradise as a material and spatial location and that it is a matter of fact that it does not exist anywhere else in all the universe of universes and certainly not at the center of all matter everywhere. toto's pet theories regarding the concentric circles and spirals and time and Paradise as the material atomic nucleus are found only in his imagination....and also in every single topic ever posted here evidently as he invades each topic to insert and assert his own beliefs and theoretical constructs....no matter their deficiencies and absurdaties!!

Rude....irrelevant....unwelcome.....

Larry W. found it necessary to boot him off here 4-5 different times over the past 4-5 years, and yet he creeps back every time with a new name but the same old schtick. Most unfortunate.

My apologies Malaku for my own contribution to this distraction...but it seems you've lost the topic anyway....at least for now.

On the actual topic: I would not be so surprised to discover that the rotational rate of galaxies is a uniform chronometer of some form....from inception or perhaps as a form of stablization over time which comes at a certain age or stage of development.

I am impressed by the scientific method's ability to adjust or utterly destroy prior theoretical explanations of observed phenomena, so I personally lack confidence in current theories regarding speed, distance, acceleration, deceleration, light shifts, and current forms of measurement, etc., etc. Science is just now beginning to grapple with the growing probability that the big bang is pure fiction and all theoretical constructs based upon it fail to truly support it.

I have great confidence in the scientific method and its self cannablising process of progressive understanding of the observable universe....which we know depends completely upon that and those who are not observable....quite a pickle indeed!

As Enno/nod reminds toto above: "Wouldn't that be because of the "certain forces as yet undiscovered on Urantia?"

Hahahahaha...so true....there is much not yet discovered on Urantia!!

Again...the words I posted are from two others...one a true scientist/student and one a student who is not a scientist but appears well read. By the way, Nigel is a member there too and has not yet chimed in. I posted the article there too simply as an interesting theory based on new observations generated by the method. I have no clue as to its importance or accuracy. But WE know the apparent mechanisms and synchronicities of the observable universe are not accidental or random and that random mechanization will always fail to explain reality.

Best wishes!

8)


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