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How do you reckon the remark Joshua made to Annas after the Last Supper: "You well know you could hold no power over me unless my Father in Heaven so wills"?

Does this remark equally apply to Lucifer, as from Michael?
Or was Lucifer sincerely and wholeheartedly against the Original Source and Center?

Surely it is agreed, that it was wise to depose Lucifer, but then we see how Thought Adjusters are likened unto "Prisoners of the Human Mind", forever seeking to uplift and enhance the quality of living outwardly.

Is Lucifer "the dead center of indecision" [to be eliminated]? Or is This Individual / Such an Individual actually wrong in what he has said?

Are the Melchizedeks and the Vorondadeks forever to be more advanced than their brothers the Lanonandeks? How shall the revelation of Michael in the form of Joshua reform the Structure of Governance within Nebadonia, if HE has chosen the world Dalamatia of Satania??

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What does TUB specifically state about what was Jesus's attitude toward Lucifer and the rebellion? What were the words that actually came out of the Master's mouth that addresses the rebels? Were any words spoken to the apostles about the rebels and the rebellion?


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
How do you reckon the remark Joshua made to Annas after the Last Supper: "You well know you could hold no power over me unless my Father in Heaven so wills"? Does this remark equally apply to Lucifer, as from Michael? Or was Lucifer sincerely and wholeheartedly against the Original Source and Center? Surely it is agreed, that it was wise to depose Lucifer, but then we see how Thought Adjusters are likened unto "Prisoners of the Human Mind", forever seeking to uplift and enhance the quality of living outwardly. Is Lucifer "the dead center of indecision" [to be eliminated]? Or is This Individual / Such an Individual actually wrong in what he has said?Are the Melchizedeks and the Vorondadeks forever to be more advanced than their brothers the Lanonandeks? How shall the revelation of Michael in the form of Joshua reform the Structure of Governance within Nebadonia, if HE has chosen the world Dalamatia of Satania??



107:6.2 (1182.4) The Adjuster is man’s eternity possibility; man is the Adjuster’s personality possibility. Your individual Adjusters work to spiritize you in the hope of eternalizing your temporal identity. The Adjusters are saturated with the beautiful and self-bestowing love of the Father of spirits. They truly and divinely love you; they are the prisoners of spirit hope confined within the minds of men. They long for the divinity attainment of your mortal minds that their loneliness may end, that they may be delivered with you from the limitations of material investiture and the habiliments of time.

108:6.6 (1193.5) And as you are the human parent, so is the Adjuster the divine parent of the real you, your higher and advancing self, your better morontial and future spiritual self. And it is this evolving morontial soul that the judges and censors discern when they decree your survival and pass you upward to new worlds and never-ending existence in eternal liaison with your faithful partner — God, the Adjuster.

108:6.7 (1193.6) The Adjusters are the eternal ancestors, the divine originals, of your evolving immortal souls; they are the unceasing urge that leads man to attempt the mastery of the material and present existence in the light of the spiritual and future career. The Monitors are the prisoners of undying hope, the founts of everlasting progression. And how they do enjoy communicating with their subjects in more or less direct channels! How they rejoice when they can dispense with symbols and other methods of indirection and flash their messages straight to the intellects of their human partners!

108:6.8 (1194.1) You humans have begun an endless unfolding of an almost infinite panorama, a limitless expanding of never-ending, ever-widening spheres of opportunity for exhilarating service, matchless adventure, sublime uncertainty, and boundless attainment. When the clouds gather overhead, your faith should accept the fact of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster, and thus you should be able to look beyond the mists of mortal uncertainty into the clear shining of the sun of eternal righteousness on the beckoning heights of the mansion worlds of Satania.



Here's the only mention of "dead center":

9. Conditions of Effective Prayer

91:9.5 (1002.10) 4. You must make a wholehearted choice of the divine will. You must obliterate the dead center of indecision.

What has Lucifer to do with this?


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Lucifer Doing God's Will when he made Declaration of Liberty.......!!!!!!??????

Is this a statement!....or a question? The Papers say what they say and don't say what they don't say......

53:2.1 (602.4) Lucifer and his first assistant, Satan, had reigned on Jerusem for more than five hundred thousand years when in their hearts they began to array themselves against the Universal Father and his then vicegerent Son, Michael.

53:2.2 (602.5) There were no peculiar or special conditions in the system of Satania which suggested or favored rebellion. It is our belief that the idea took origin and form in Lucifer’s mind, and that he might have instigated such a rebellion no matter where he might have been stationed. Lucifer first announced his plans to Satan, but it required several months to corrupt the mind of his able and brilliant associate. However, when once converted to the rebel theories, he became a bold and earnest advocate of “self-assertion and liberty.”

53:2.3 (602.6) No one ever suggested rebellion to Lucifer. The idea of self-assertion in opposition to the will of Michael and to the plans of the Universal Father, as they are represented in Michael, had its origin in his own mind. His relations with the Creator Son had been intimate and always cordial. At no time prior to the exaltation of his own mind did Lucifer openly express dissatisfaction about the universe administration. Notwithstanding his silence, for more than one hundred years of standard time the Union of Days on Salvington had been reflectivating to Uversa that all was not at peace in Lucifer’s mind. This information was also communicated to the Creator Son and the Constellation Fathers of Norlatiadek.

53:3.1 (603.2) Whatever the early origins of trouble in the hearts of Lucifer and Satan, the final outbreak took form as the Lucifer Declaration of Liberty. The cause of the rebels was stated under three heads:

53:3.2 (603.3) 1. The reality of the Universal Father. Lucifer charged that the Universal Father did not really exist
, that physical gravity and space-energy were inherent in the universe, and that the Father was a myth invented by the Paradise Sons to enable them to maintain the rule of the universes in the Father’s name. He denied that personality was a gift of the Universal Father. He even intimated that the finaliters were in collusion with the Paradise Sons to foist fraud upon all creation since they never brought back a very clear-cut idea of the Father’s actual personality as it is discernible on Paradise. He traded on reverence as ignorance. The charge was sweeping, terrible, and blasphemous. It was this veiled attack upon the finaliters that no doubt influenced the ascendant citizens then on Jerusem to stand firm and remain steadfast in resistance to all the rebel’s proposals.

53:3.3 (603.4) 2. The universe government of the Creator Son — Michael. Lucifer contended that the local systems should be autonomous. He protested against the right of Michael, the Creator Son, to assume sovereignty of Nebadon in the name of a hypothetical Paradise Father and require all personalities to acknowledge allegiance to this unseen Father. He asserted that the whole plan of worship was a clever scheme to aggrandize the Paradise Sons. He was willing to acknowledge Michael as his Creator-father but not as his God and rightful ruler.

53:3.4 (603.5) Most bitterly did he attack the right of the Ancients of Days — “foreign potentates” — to interfere in the affairs of the local systems and universes. These rulers he denounced as tyrants and usurpers. He exhorted his followers to believe that none of these rulers could do aught to interfere with the operation of complete home rule if men and angels only had the courage to assert themselves and boldly claim their rights.

53:3.5 (603.6) He contended that the executioners of the Ancients of Days could be debarred from functioning in the local systems if the native beings would only assert their independence. He maintained that immortality was inherent in the system personalities, that resurrection was natural and automatic, and that all beings would live eternally except for the arbitrary and unjust acts of the executioners of the Ancients of Days.

53:3.6 (604.1) 3. The attack upon the universal plan of ascendant mortal training. Lucifer maintained that far too much time and energy were expended upon the scheme of so thoroughly training ascending mortals in the principles of universe administration, principles which he alleged were unethical and unsound. He protested against the agelong program for preparing the mortals of space for some unknown destiny and pointed to the presence of the finaliter corps on Jerusem as proof that these mortals had spent ages of preparation for some destiny of pure fiction. With derision he pointed out that the finaliters had encountered a destiny no more glorious than to be returned to humble spheres similar to those of their origin. He intimated that they had been debauched by overmuch discipline and prolonged training, and that they were in reality traitors to their mortal fellows since they were now co-operating with the scheme of enslaving all creation to the fictions of a mythical eternal destiny for ascending mortals. He advocated that ascenders should enjoy the liberty of individual self-determination. He challenged and condemned the entire plan of mortal ascension as sponsored by the Paradise Sons of God and supported by the Infinite Spirit.

53:3.7 (604.2) And it was with such a Declaration of Liberty that Lucifer launched his orgy of darkness and death.



You asked: "Or was Lucifer sincerely and wholeheartedly against the Original Source and Center?"


Me here: Clearly, Lucifer was not "doing God's will". Good Grief!!

And you declare a falsehood/misstatement easily verified in-text: "..... we see how Thought Adjusters are likened unto "Prisoners of the Human Mind", forever seeking to uplift and enhance the quality of living outwardly."

I see nothing of the sort - read the actual text in my first post above. Our TAs are "prisoners of undying hope".

You again misquote and twist the text with this: "Is Lucifer "the dead center of indecision" [to be eliminated]? Or is This Individual / Such an Individual actually wrong in what he has said?"

Nobody said that at all!!!!

Exactly what book are YOU reading? Please post text that supports your misstatements or text with which you disagree and stop twisting, revising, and torturing the text itself. Please. It makes you look foolish and can be a form of distraction and misinformation for newer students. The innuendo and insinuation inherent within the title of this thread is revealing as to your knowledge, your motive, and your intentions here. Clumsy but sublimely ridiculous!

:roll:


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53:9.5 (611.4) Since Michael’s final bestowal no one in all Satania has desired to go to the prison worlds to minister to the interned rebels.

Is this really true?

Seems like every day I see the rebel's "cause" being ministered to.

Will this ever stop?


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I always found that quote really curious. I must admit I almost want to go just to see the spectacle. Curiosity more than anything. I wouldn't want to even try ministering to them, though. I assume we are forbidden to do such things while we tarry on the mansion worlds. I suspect by the time we reach Jerusem any lingering curiosity would have probably faded.


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quil wrote:
I always found that quote really curious. I must admit I almost want to go just to see the spectacle. Curiosity more than anything. I wouldn't want to even try ministering to them, though. I assume we are forbidden to do such things while we tarry on the mansion worlds. I suspect by the time we reach Jerusem any lingering curiosity would have probably faded.


Refusing to minister even to the criminally insane is not a very Christian attitude. Clergy minister to death row inmates in our prisons. Simply gawking at the rebels in their prison captivity is strangely curious indeed.

Remember that those in these prisons are still your brothers and remain so right up until the time of their annihilation. Our duty is to the Will of God and that is to serve our brothers and not to judge them or gawk at them as a result of some morbid curiosity.

What would Christ Michael do? Would he ignore them, minister to them or gawk at them? Jesus said to an onlooking Universe, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Please think about this.


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MannyC wrote:
quil wrote:
I always found that quote really curious. I must admit I almost want to go just to see the spectacle. Curiosity more than anything. I wouldn't want to even try ministering to them, though. I assume we are forbidden to do such things while we tarry on the mansion worlds. I suspect by the time we reach Jerusem any lingering curiosity would have probably faded.


Refusing to minister even to the criminally insane is not a very Christian attitude. Clergy minister to death row inmates in our prisons. Simply gawking at the rebels in their prison captivity is strangely curious indeed.

Remember that those in these prisons are still your brothers and remain so right up until the time of their annihilation. Our duty is to the Will of God and that is to serve our brothers and not to judge them or gawk at them as a result of some morbid curiosity.

What would Christ Michael do? Would he ignore them, minister to them or gawk at them? Jesus said to an onlooking Universe, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Please think about this.
When it comes to the proverbial Christian attitude referenced above, I have a question. Am I allowed to ask a question like this?

Is Christ Michael a Christian?


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nodAmanaV wrote:
MannyC wrote:
quil wrote:
I always found that quote really curious. I must admit I almost want to go just to see the spectacle. Curiosity more than anything. I wouldn't want to even try ministering to them, though. I assume we are forbidden to do such things while we tarry on the mansion worlds. I suspect by the time we reach Jerusem any lingering curiosity would have probably faded.


Refusing to minister even to the criminally insane is not a very Christian attitude. Clergy minister to death row inmates in our prisons. Simply gawking at the rebels in their prison captivity is strangely curious indeed.

Remember that those in these prisons are still your brothers and remain so right up until the time of their annihilation. Our duty is to the Will of God and that is to serve our brothers and not to judge them or gawk at them as a result of some morbid curiosity.

What would Christ Michael do? Would he ignore them, minister to them or gawk at them? Jesus said to an onlooking Universe, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Please think about this.
When it comes to the proverbial Christian attitude referenced above, I have a question. Am I allowed to ask a question like this?

Is Christ Michael a Christian?



Great question! And I think that you are allowed to ask it. But do not take it from me. Go to the source. Ask Christ Michael yourself. Did he not tell you that he will always be with you? Would he refuse to answer you if you asked sincerely?

While your at it perhaps you might want to ask Jesus if he is a Jesusonian. :smile:


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I once asked Mo that, he said he's a Jew. :mrgreen:


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nodAmanaV wrote:
I once asked Mo that, he said he's a Jew. :mrgreen:



Well, I guess you have your answer then. O:)


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
How do you reckon the remark Joshua made to Annas after the Last Supper: "You well know you could hold no power over me unless my Father in Heaven so wills"?
SEla_Kelly, why have you altered the words the text indicates Jesus said at that moment?


I quote:
184:1.5 (1979.3) “Annas, you know that you could have no power over me unless it were permitted by my Father."


Why did you change the phrase "unless it were permitted by my Father" to "unless my Father in Heaven so wills"?

God gives his "permission" to do evil, but that is NOT his will. It's yours, if you so decide to declare "liberty".


"Please allow me to introduce myself"
"I'm a man of wealth and taste"
"I've been around for a long, long year"
"Stole many a man's soul to waste"

"Pleased to meet you" :roll:
"Hope you guessed my name"


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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZRXGsPBUV5g


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MannyC wrote:
quil wrote:
I always found that quote really curious. I must admit I almost want to go just to see the spectacle. Curiosity more than anything. I wouldn't want to even try ministering to them, though. I assume we are forbidden to do such things while we tarry on the mansion worlds. I suspect by the time we reach Jerusem any lingering curiosity would have probably faded.


Refusing to minister even to the criminally insane is not a very Christian attitude. Clergy minister to death row inmates in our prisons. Simply gawking at the rebels in their prison captivity is strangely curious indeed.

Remember that those in these prisons are still your brothers and remain so right up until the time of their annihilation. Our duty is to the Will of God and that is to serve our brothers and not to judge them or gawk at them as a result of some morbid curiosity.

What would Christ Michael do? Would he ignore them, minister to them or gawk at them? Jesus said to an onlooking Universe, "Judge not lest ye be judged". Please think about this.


Gawking? Understanding is a better description of the motivation. What does such a world look like? There is nothing wrong with honest curiosity. God gave it to us for a reason. My suspicion is that we will be taught enough about the world to no longer have any desire to see it in person. Besides, we're on a sphere kind of like it, anyway.

I don't judge. But I do respect the opinion of my elder brothers when they deem that no amount of ministry will ever bring certain lost ones back. God does not will us into futility.


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Right Bro Quil :wink:

And Isnt Urantia a type of prison world

For Caligastia scince hes free to roam yet impotant !


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