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rick warren wrote:
Wellll, good points all, but communion can be prayer too:


That is the way I tend to use the word, as a form of true prayer, the intimate sharing of the inner life with deity. Since the Thought Adjuster is prepersonal, it has always been my belief that communion with the Creator Son is much easier for mortals. When Jesus asked mortals to abide "in" him, I think his intention was deep intimacy between "man and his Maker". Reference:

(996:3)  91:2.5 When religion is divested of a personal God, its prayers translate to the levels of theology and philosophy. When the highest God concept of a religion is that of an impersonal Deity, such as in pantheistic idealism, although affording the basis for certain forms of mystic communion, it proves fatal to the potency of true prayer, which always stands for man's communion with a personal and superior being.

But clearly there are two types of communion, the communion of true prayer and the communion of worship. It looks like the communion of prayer leads to the communion of worship. References:

(1618.6) 144.2.2  “Prayer is entirely a personal and spontaneous expression of the attitude of the soul toward the spirit; prayer should be the communion of sonship and the expression of fellowship. Prayer, when indited by the spirit, leads to co-operative spiritual progress. The ideal prayer is a form of spiritual communion which leads to intelligent worship. True praying is the sincere attitude of reaching heavenward for the attainment of your ideals.

(1123.5) 102:4.5 Prayer is indeed a part of religious experience, but it has been wrongly emphasized by modern religions, much to the neglect of the more essential communion of worship. The reflective powers of the mind are deepened and broadened by worship. Prayer may enrich the life, but worship illuminates destiny.


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katroofjebus wrote:
rick warren wrote:
Wellll, good points all, but communion can be prayer too:


That is the way I tend to use the word, as a form of true prayer, the intimate sharing of the inner life with deity. Since the Thought Adjuster is prepersonal, it has always been my belief that communion with the Creator Son is much easier for mortals. When Jesus asked mortals to abide "in" him, I think his intention was deep intimacy between "man and his Maker". Reference:

(996:3)  91:2.5 When religion is divested of a personal God, its prayers translate to the levels of theology and philosophy. When the highest God concept of a religion is that of an impersonal Deity, such as in pantheistic idealism, although affording the basis for certain forms of mystic communion, it proves fatal to the potency of true prayer, which always stands for man's communion with a personal and superior being.

But clearly there are two types of communion, the communion of true prayer and the communion of worship. It looks like the communion of prayer leads to the communion of worship. References:

(1618.6) 144.2.2  “Prayer is entirely a personal and spontaneous expression of the attitude of the soul toward the spirit; prayer should be the communion of sonship and the expression of fellowship. Prayer, when indited by the spirit, leads to co-operative spiritual progress. The ideal prayer is a form of spiritual communion which leads to intelligent worship. True praying is the sincere attitude of reaching heavenward for the attainment of your ideals.

(1123.5) 102:4.5 Prayer is indeed a part of religious experience, but it has been wrongly emphasized by modern religions, much to the neglect of the more essential communion of worship. The reflective powers of the mind are deepened and broadened by worship. Prayer may enrich the life, but worship illuminates destiny.


Well said.

.


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tlhall wrote:
I love the fact that this forum doesn't automatically lock conversations that are years old. Maybe this is a recognition of the timeless nature of these conversations.

"Worship" is a bit of a puzzle for me.

I'm not sure how much of an overlap this is with Coop's post, but there's a nice collection of UB quotes at:
https://truthbook.com/urantia/topical-studies/worship

While reading these, I got caught up in the idea that "I want to learn this 'worship' practice since it seems to provide loads of benefits", but then, the quotes themselves point out that "There is absolutely no self-request or other element of personal interest in true worship".

Sometimes I contemplate the amazing fact of existence: "Why is there something and not nothing ?"

Is this worship ?
There's no element of "personality" in it, I don't feel like I'm communing with anyone. While I intend to try to do this more often, will I sometime start to experience a personal relationship here ?


Welcome tlhall!! Thanks for the link...nice. I am enjoying the contemplation of the paradox you present, one which fits so neatly among those the Master spoke so often...the first being last, the greatest and least, losing our life to save it, etc.

The ability for self to be present but not self important and for self to be assertive and expressive but not dominate or aggressive and for self to be willfull and yet submissive to a higher will is quite fascinating!! I think worship requires such a posture and alignment of being.

Like a musician who plays and manipulates an instrument with complete abandon and by total inspiration, the one making the music must remove the "self" and the body from in between the source of the music and inspiration and the instrument of music's expression. The more the self must think to perform, then the lesser and more inferior the actual music.

So I think worship requires practice and experience for it to become sublime. Few are the musicians whose music is sublime without extensive practice. Prayer is the technique of learning notes, scales, and melody which results in the actual expression of music.

The UB suggests a quiet place of comfort and beauty with an attitude of peace and tranquility and an approach of both reverence and familiarity with humility but standing - a faith child of an affectionate parent whose purpose and intent is sharing the wonder, love, adoration, and sublime joy of one's heart and whole being. We are promised that such a connection results in a powerful current and flow of Divine energy, bliss, insight, inspiration, and growth.

Personally, my instrument still squeaks, squaks, squeals, and squals but occasionaly I master a riff or two! Have you ever noticed how many children take up music and an instrument but give it up long before real proficiency and mastery arrive? And yet how easy is the master musicians music to deliver once such time and practice delivers such success of musical expression!

Your post also reminds me of the desirability of the fruits of the Spirit which come only by our willful attachment of the branch of our being to the vine of Divinity. These fruits arrive by our personal growth by the nourishment provided by our intentional choices and decisions which attach us to the source of the nutrition of the bread and waters of life. How does the self so benefit by becoming self forgetting? We are told that self forgetting is not the same as selfless. We are. We are becoming. We matter. Our individual experience, perspective, and expression are treasured by Deity and contribute to the benefit of all others. We are not to be clones or robo-automatoms or meld into hive mind or be absorbed by the great ALL.

No, our individuation and unique experience contributes meaning and value....there is only one such voice in the choir, only one such expression of our personalized worship. It's very personal indeed!

The love of the Father absolutely individualizes each personality as a unique child of the Universal Father, a child without duplicate in infinity, a will creature irreplaceable in all eternity. The Father's love glorifies each child of God, illuminating each member of the celestial family, sharply silhouetting the unique nature of each personal being against the impersonal levels that lie outside the fraternal circuit of the Father of all. The love of God strikingly portrays the transcendent value of each will creature, unmistakably reveals the high value which the Universal Father has placed upon each and every one of his children from the highest creator personality of Paradise status to the lowest personality of will dignity among the savage tribes of men in the dawn of the human species on some evolutionary world of time and space.” (138.4) 12:7.9 John 16:27.

As to feeling like you're not communing with anyone....hmmmm….I would suggest that you are communing with someone if you sincerely intend to. If you are not receiving confirmations or affirmations of contact, it may be due to bio/electrical/chemical interference on the receiving end of things. I wonder if you've tried meditation techniques for quieting the "noise" of mind and the distractions inevitable to prevent and interfere with focus? The point of meditation is not to be mindless but, rather, mindful. These techniques are applied by the best musicians as described above...to present the self to receive rather than to transmit. Too often we seek to express self rather than experience the "other" within. We love our own voice sometimes so we only hear what we want to hear...and disregard the rest (as the song goes).

1:7.1 (31.1) When Jesus talked about “the living God,” he referred to a personal Deity—the Father in heaven. The concept of the personality of Deity facilitates fellowship; it favors intelligent worship; it promotes refreshing trustfulness. Interactions can be had between nonpersonal things, but not fellowship. The fellowship relation of father and son, as between God and man, cannot be enjoyed unless both are persons. Only personalities can commune with each other, albeit this personal communion may be greatly facilitated by the presence of just such an impersonal entity as the Thought Adjuster.

1:7.2 (31.2) Man does not achieve union with God as a drop of water might find unity with the ocean. Man attains divine union by progressive reciprocal spiritual communion, by personality intercourse with the personal God, by increasingly attaining the divine nature through wholehearted and intelligent conformity to the divine will. Such a sublime relationship can exist only between personalities.

3:4.6 (50.4) Mortal man cannot possibly know the infinitude of the heavenly Father. Finite mind cannot think through such an absolute truth or fact. But this same finite human being can actually feel—literally experience—the full and undiminished impact of such an infinite Father’s love. Such a love can be truly experienced, albeit while quality of experience is unlimited, quantity of such an experience is strictly limited by the human capacity for spiritual receptivity and by the associated capacity to love the Father in return.

3:4.7 (50.5) Finite appreciation of infinite qualities far transcends the logically limited capacities of the creature because of the fact that mortal man is made in the image of God—there lives within him a fragment of infinity. Therefore man’s nearest and dearest approach to God is by and through love, for God is love. And all of such a unique relationship is an actual experience in cosmic sociology, the Creator-creature relationship—the Father-child affection.

“As all gravity is circuited in the Isle of Paradise, as all mind is circuited in the Conjoint Actor and all spirit in the Eternal Son, so is all personality circuited in the personal presence of the Universal Father, and this circuit unerringly transmits the worship of all personalities to the Original and Eternal Personality.” (71.6) 5:6.11

“The spirit-gravity circuit is the basic channel for transmitting the genuine prayers of the believing human heart from the level of human consciousness to the actual consciousness of Deity. That which represents true spiritual value in your petitions will be seized by the universal circuit of spirit gravity and will pass immediately and simultaneously to all divine personalities concerned. Each will occupy himself with that which belongs to his personal province.

Therefore, in your practical religious experience, it is immaterial whether, in addressing your supplications, you visualize the Creator Son of your local universe or the Eternal Son at the center of all things.” (84.2) 7:3.2

“But how much more perfect is the superb technique of the spiritual world: If anything originates in your consciousness that is fraught with supreme spiritual value, when once you give it expression, no power in the universe can prevent its flashing directly to the Absolute Spirit Personality of all creation.” (84.5) 7:3.5


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Mar 16, 2019 8:47 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
Like a musician who plays and manipulates an instrument with complete abandon and by total inspiration, the one making the music must remove the "self" and the body from in between the source of the music and inspiration and the instrument of music's expression. The more the self must think to perform, then the lesser and more inferior the actual music.


This would be your opinion and not the views of the Urantia Papers?

what about include the self in the doing of the father's will

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the how cannot be separated from the why, and the why cannot be separated from the who


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If communion takes practice, how is it that a child is capable of it? Jesus, even as a child, took time from prayer to have a little chat with his Father in heaven. I think it begins with faith-trust in the fact that there is a Father to have a chat with. And because of revelation we also know that the Father is not in the far-off heavens.

How better it is to come to your Father than as a child? I think rather than practice I think it takes soul growth to approach the Father as a grown son. The best approach, in my experience, is one of a trusting child desiring to grow into a fully adult son. Ask the Father how to do that, better yet, ask his Son how he actually did that in his life as a human child. If you've seen the Son, you've seen the Father.

I think the greatest danger in the practice of the prayer of communion is the idea that it is supposed to be a mystical experience. It is rather an experience between two personalities, just as any other relationship. The divine personality whom we all know very well is Jesus. My suggestion: Talk to Jesus person-to-person and don't try to focus on anything other than your own sincere desire to love him as an actual person. He will show up. Guaranteed. The more you love him, the more you'll know him. The son's love for the Father is the only approach. References:

(1593:6) 141:7.5 Jesus made it plain that he had come to establish personal and eternal relations with men which should forever take precedence over all other human relationships.

(1942.5) 179:5.6 This supper of remembrance, when it is partaken of by those who are Son-believing and God-knowing, does not need to have associated with its symbolism any of man’s puerile misinterpretations regarding the meaning of the divine presence, for upon all such occasions the Master is really present. The remembrance supper is the believer’s symbolic rendezvous with Michael. When you become thus spirit-conscious, the Son is actually present, and his spirit fraternizes with the indwelling fragment of his Father.

(1118:4)  102:1.1 – divine things must be loved in order to be known.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
what about include the self in the doing of the father's will


I think fanofVan means to remove "self-importance". I agree, it's impossible to have a relationship if the self is removed from it.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Like a musician who plays and manipulates an instrument with complete abandon and by total inspiration, the one making the music must remove the "self" and the body from in between the source of the music and inspiration and the instrument of music's expression. The more the self must think to perform, then the lesser and more inferior the actual music.


This would be your opinion and not the views of the Urantia Papers?

what about include the self in the doing of the father's will


Did you miss this Stephen?

"I am enjoying the contemplation of the paradox you present, one which fits so neatly among those the Master spoke so often...the first being last, the greatest and least, losing our life to save it, etc.

The ability for self to be present but not self important and for self to be assertive and expressive but not dominate or aggressive and for self to be willfull and yet submissive to a higher will is quite fascinating!! I think worship requires such a posture and alignment of being."


And yes Stephen, obviously so, everything I write here (and everyone else writes) that is not posted text quotes is opinion. Although the opinions I offer are intended to support and agree with the teachings and are usually accompanied by supporting text, as contrasted by some here. Your point being?

I do often post text in support of my posts/opinions in support of our purpose here and do not impose irrelevant and endless bloviations of personal pet theories which directly contradict the UB seeking an audience for my own metaphysical inventions of fantasy and fiction. Just sayin'.

Kat...perhaps I should have said repetition and experience will improve outcomes? And didn't I also write:

"...an approach of both reverence and familiarity with humility but standing - a faith child of an affectionate parent whose purpose and intent is sharing the wonder, love, adoration, and sublime joy of one's heart and whole being. We are promised that such a connection results in a powerful current and flow of Divine energy, bliss, insight, inspiration, and growth."

Thanks again to tlhall for refreshing such an important conversation!!

Bradly 8)


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Quote:
fanofVan wrote:
Like a musician who plays and manipulates an instrument with complete abandon and by total inspiration, the one making the music must remove the "self" and the body from in between the source of the music and inspiration and the instrument of music's expression. The more the self must think to perform, then the lesser and more inferior the actual music.


This would be your opinion and not the views of the Urantia Papers?

what about include the self in the doing of the father's will


I think this musical analogy is very good...and it's true. One cannot be a virtuoso at a musical instrument by being self-conscious of playing every note. Likewise with spiritual growth. And worship certainly is part of spiritual growth and must be self-forgetful.

One can employ the self in the decision to worship, but the worship itself cannot be experienced while thinking too much. Meditation, maybe...but not worship.

Quote:
143:7.7 Prayer is self-reminding—sublime thinking; worship is self-forgetting—superthinking. Worship is effortless attention, true and ideal soul rest, a form of restful spiritual exertion.

https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-143-going-through-samaria#U143_7_7

At least that is my experience...

MaryJo


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Worship is a response to an awareness of great joy in knowing something true in your heart of hearts.
how you feel or are inspired to express it is an individual thing, but you out come is the same.... unbridled love 'Joy"


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