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So I'm still a new reader to TUB but I recently became aware of the Lucifer problem. For those not familiar with the issue I'll summarize briefly:

The name Lucifer is only used twice in the Old Testament of the KJV. Both of these uses are used as to metaphorically describe 2 fallen rulers of that time, not Satan. The idea that these verses referenced Satan was due to a translation error when the KJV was written. The actual hebrew word used meant "Morning star" or "Day star" which back then meant the planet Venus.

The stumbling block I'm at is this: on the first page of Lucifer Rebellion the UB describes Lucifer and states "the olden prophet spoke of you when he said:" and it then paraphrases one of the Old Testament verses. Also the second Old Testament Lucifer verse is used in TUB to describe Lucifer on that same page.

How do I respond to the claim that TUB must be a work of man because these two verses never actually described a being known as Lucifer, but instead were metaphors used for actual human rulers that got mistranslated and misunderstood. Therefore concluding that the human authors of TUB were unaware of these translation errors when writing the Lucifer Rebellion paper.

After a quick forum search I've seen that this issue was brought up in the past, however the poster who made the original thread lacked proper social skills & did not facilitate a friendly environment for anyone to actually offer a solution to this problem.

I, however, am very interested in this and so would like to make a new thread on this topic so that I can bring comfort to my weakend faith in TUB.

-Mon


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Hi Mon:

OK, Lucifer. Here, at least is how I see it… (a quick and very incomplete overview)

Lucifer was (is) a High Son of God. He was the System Sovereign of our neck of the universe. Satan was (is) also a High Son of God, but one of somewhat reduced position.
Lucifer instigated a rebellion in our portion of the universe. This rebellion was one of personal liberty superseding the will and plan of God. Satan was a willing partner in this. This rebellion spread across this small portion of the universe and included a small and unimportant planet… planet number 606 in our local system. This planet was ruled by a personality who was (is) named Caligastia. Caligastia was also a Son of God, abet of a reduced rank than Lucifer of Satan. Now this is important because planet 606 is us, Urantia, planet earth.

Living on planet earth at that time were the aboriginal ancestors of modern mankind. They were a primitive bunch, and the doctrine of unlimited personal liberty which was thrust upon them rapidly degenerated into unlimited license. The progress of thousands of years of slowly helping these primitives along the path of progressive evolution was almost completely lost. Excepting a very few fortunate individuals, mankind was thrown into confusion, a confusion from which we have never yet fully escaped.

Fast forward many thousand years… Jesus of Nazareth lived his amazing life on our world. Jesus, the Highest Son of God which our minds can actually comprehend, (much higher than Lucifer or Satan) proclaimed to his generation that all mankind were the fellow sons and daughters of a common God, and that all were destined eternal life if they would follow the path of Truth Beauty and Goodness.

Unfortunately, this did not sit well with even the most spiritually advanced people of that time, the Jews. They had evolved a nationalistic religion which did not mesh well with the idea that faith and love were the keystones of eternal survival, not ritual and bloodline. Jesus’ message was a real threat to the leaders of this religion and they acted forcefully against it, with the climax of this being the sight of the Master on the cross, giving up his life for even his enemies. But the Master has foreseen even this and, as he told his Apostles, rose on the third day and tarried upon this sin cursed world for a short season before he rose to take his place as Sovereign of this entire local universe.

Fast forward again. The bible is written. The collected works of many God knowing men and women from the ages. A wonderful, inspired document. But, in the final analysis, still a work of man.

Fast forward to the 1930’s. A group of celestial citizens, seeing how the teachings OF the Master are in jeopardy of fading from the human race, replaced by a religion ABOUT the Master, petition and receive approval to transmit thru a human subject a clearer revelation about who we are, why we are, and where we are going.

The Urantia papers are NOT the be-all and end all of revelation. They are merely the latest installment. There are some here who feel that the next revelation is just around the corner, others feel that this installment is meant to last 1000 years.

If you allow it to, the Urantia book will clarify and even strengthen your understanding of the bible. But you have to let go of the idea that it is the WORD OF GOD. But understand that the Urantia book is not the word of God either. The choice to go on is yours, and yours alone.

Al


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I will give a stupid argument:

The revelators knew the original source of Old Testament; therefore, they knew what they were quoting. Our knowledge of the Old Testament is all second hand, and we can only quote source from the second hand. It is pointless to use second hand information to invalidate TUB.


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Hi Monarlais,


Im very familiar with this issue and researched it extensively.

real quick cause i ave to run:

* When Jerome chose the name Lucifer in the Vulgate translation he did so because that name fit the commonly held belief of who was being discussed. In the west we forget that there's a whole other literary world out there, the OT was not the only source of religious thought. This is evidenced by Isiah's choice to reference the mythical legend of Venus from a non Hebrew source.

The OT writers may not have ever believed in a Lucifer, but that does not mean that other cultures didn't know who Lucifer was. Jerome obviously did and chose to use that name.

Hope tat helps.........oh, and some say that Isaiah was referring to the king of Babylon, but in the Kings list there is no "day star" as king.


Source Wiki:

The Lucifer story

A myth[4] of the fall of angels, associated with the Morning Star, was transferred to Satan, as seen in the Life of Adam and Eve and the Second Book of Enoch,[5] which the Jewish Encyclopedia attributes to the first pre-Christian century:[6] in these Satan-Sataniel (sometimes identified with Samael) is described as having been one of the archangels. Because he contrived "to make his throne higher than the clouds over the earth and resemble 'My power' on high", Satan-Sataniel was hurled down, with his hosts of angels, and since then he has been flying in the air continually above the abyss.[4]
Gustave Doré's illustration for Milton's Paradise Lost, Book IV, lines 1013–1015: Satan (alias Lucifer) yielding before Raphael

Early Christian writers continued this identification of "Lucifer" with Satan. Tertullian ("Contra Marcionem," v. 11, 17), Origen ("Ezekiel Opera," iii. 356), and others, identify Lucifer with Satan, who also is represented as being "cast down from heaven" (Revelation 12:7–10; cf. Luke 10:18).[4]

However, some contemporary exorcists and theologians such as Father José Antonio Fortea and Father Amorth in their experience and based on Biblical interpretations assert that Lucifer and Satan are different beings.[7]

In the New Testament the Adversary has many names, but "Lucifer" is not among them. He is called "Satan" (Matt. 4:10; Mark 1:13, 4:15; Luke 10:18), "devil" (Matt. 4:1), "adversary" (1. Peter 5:8, ἀντίδικος; 1. Tim. 5:14, ἀντικείμενος), "enemy" (Matt. 13:39), "accuser" (Rev. 12:10), "old serpent" (Rev. 20:2), "great dragon" (Rev. 12:9), Beelzebub (Matt. 10:25, 12:24), and Belial (comp. Samael). In Luke 10:18, John 12:31, 2. Cor. 6:16, and Rev. 12:9 the fall of Satan is mentioned. The devil is regarded as the author of all evil (Luke 10:19; Acts 5:3; 2. Cor. 11:3; Ephes. 2:2), who beguiled Eve (2. Cor. 11:3; Rev. 12:9). Because of Satan, death came into this world, being ever the tempter (1. Cor. 7:5; 1. Thess. 3:5; 1. Peter 5:8), even as he tempted Jesus (Matt. 4). The Christian demonology and belief in the devil dominated subsequent periods.[8] However, though the New Testament includes the conception that Satan fell from heaven "as lightning" (Luke 10:18; Rev. 12:7-10),[9] it nowhere applies the name Lucifer to him.

The Jewish Encyclopedia states that in the apocalyptic literature, the conception of fallen angels is widespread. Throughout antiquity stars were commonly regarded as living celestial beings (Job 38:7).[9] Indications of this belief in fallen angels, behind which probably lies the symbolizing of an astronomical phenomenon, the shooting stars, are found in Isaiah 14:12.

colter


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Perhaps an interesting site but is written in Italian
http://www.angelologia.it/ribelli.htm

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Namaste -
I hope not to invade in Mon`s thread but I would like to ask a question along side of Mon`s please.

Quote:
Lucifer was (is) a High Son of God.

Quote:
Satan was (is) also a High Son of God, but one of somewhat reduced position.

Quote:
Lucifer instigated a rebellion in our portion of the universe.


:shock: I thought both where the same guy. :shock:

Maybe its due to my limited understanding as a human being, however the questions in my mind remain:
(ooops, you guessed it - theres going to be more than one question) :-$

Here goes:
1) Lucifer, Satan ALL KNEW, KNOW AND MOSTLIKELY WILL ALWAYS KNOW MORE THAN WE at any given Timeframe.
WHY or what was the purpose of this rivalry over 606?
Is it not much more simple to create a new planet and hand it to them saying, do what ya want with it.

Micheal & Gabriel then step into the picture on 606.

I guess what I am getting at is this:
Now picture me please. I am standing here like a Mami with my hands perched on my hips and have my eyebrow cocked up. I am simply in awe, that I, as a wee, wee, wee, microscopic tiny, little fragment of dust in this whole picture of Urantia can get my kids to stop fussing, or keep them from starting havoc within a splitt of a second if need be, and my heavenly father doesnt knock some sense into Lucifer and Satan, lets them fuss and fight.
2) Now tell me the sense in that?

...And then theres so so many Aunts and Uncles out there (Raphael, Gabriel, Michael etc) and Michael is the only one whom demonstrates rebucking towards Lucifer and Satan?

I am a bit disappointed.

Insight please?


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Non ho la presunzione di ripspondere io al quesito della ribellione ma vediamo cosa mi dice la logica e qualcosa che ho letto.
Lucifero o Satana o Caligastia o chiunque personalità nell'Univeso è sempre posto difronte a prove oggettive. Ognuno risponde a queste prove attraverso la Fede o la convinzione personale che si è fatto sia come essere mortale e quindi se ha fede prosegue il suo percorso che come essere spirituale nato eterno ma oggettivamente sottoposto a prova e con possibilità di ridimensionamento.
Chi non crede o fa del suo Ego la propria fede se è mortale allora morirà ma chi non crede anche non essendo mortale certamente del suo peccato ne morirà.
Infatti anche nella Genesi erano scritte queste parole, la disobbedienza a dei Valori Divini porta inesorabilmente la creatura alla morte o meglio alla non mai esistenza.
Urantia in rapporto alla ribellione è soltanto una piccola realtà ma che attraverso la missione di Gesù si è trasformata nel pianeta più spettacolare dell'universo di Nebanton infatti Gesù ha per sempre risolto ogni controversia dovuta alla ribellione in modo che in futuro ogni altra situazione analoga sia risolta all'istante.
Ultima cosa non indifferente è che se c'è stato un male provocato da tale ribellione e tutti ne hanno sofferto, ugualmente tutti ne beneficieranno in misura maggiore, infatti il Padre anche dal male sa trarre un bene.
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I have not the presumption of reply the question of rebellion, but I see what logic tells me and something I read.
Lucifer or Satan or whoever or Caligastia nell'Univeso personality is always placed in front of objective evidence. Everyone responds to these trials through faith or personal conviction that has made both as a deadly and so if you have faith continues its path as a spiritual being born eternal but objectively tested and with the possibility of downsizing.
Who does not believe or does his ego if his faith is mortal then die, but who does not believe it is not even fatal course of his sin will die.
In fact, even in Genesis were written these words, disobedience to the divine values leads inexorably to death, or rather the creature never there.
Urantia in relation to the rebellion is only a small company but that through Jesus' mission has become the world most spectacular universe Nebanton fact Jesus has forever settled any dispute due to the rebellion so that in future any analogous situation is resolved immediately.
Last thing is not insignificant that if there was an evil caused by this rebellion, and all have suffered, everyone will benefit equally greater extent, even the Father is able to bring good from evil.

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This was my reply on the other thread concerning this issue:

Quote:
St. Jerome agrees with them
(In Isaiah 1:14), and makes Lucifer the name of the principal
fallen angel who must lament the loss of his original glory bright
as the morning star. In Christian tradition this meaning of Lucifer
has prevailed; the Fathers maintain that Lucifer is not the proper
name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has
fallen (Petavius, De Angelis, III, iii, 4)."


In Catholic Tradition Lucifer is a Seraphim, a burning one, who served in the presence of God and burned with God's brilliance. Lucifer rebelled against that service and in his rebellion he fell into the corruption of self centeredness and his followers likewise.

TUB states the following
Quote:
LUCIFER WAS A BRILLIANT primary Lanonandek Son of Nebadon. He had experienced service in many systems, had been a high counselor of his group, and was distinguished for wisdom, sagacity, and efficiency. Lucifer was number 37 of his order, and when commissioned by the Melchizedeks, he was designated as one of the one hundred most able and brilliant personalities in more than seven hundred thousand of his kind. From such a magnificent beginning, through evil and error, he embraced sin and now is numbered as one of three System Sovereigns in Nebadon who have succumbed to the urge of self and surrendered to the sophistry of spurious personal liberty—rejection of universe allegiance and disregard of fraternal obligations, blindness to cosmic relationships.


Paper 53 explains that the decision was made to isolate and not interfere in the rebellion
Quote:
53:5.1 Upon the outbreak of the Satania rebellion, Michael took counsel of his Paradise brother, Immanuel. Following this momentous conference, Michael announced that he would pursue the same policy which had characterized his dealings with similar upheavals in the past, an attitude of noninterference.

53:5.2 At the time of this rebellion and the two which preceded it, there was no absolute and personal sovereign authority in the universe of Nebadon. Michael ruled by divine right, as vicegerent of the Universal Father, but not yet in his own personal right. He had not completed his bestowal career; he had not yet been vested with "all power in heaven and on earth."

53:5.3 From the outbreak of rebellion to the day of his enthronement as sovereign ruler of Nebadon, Michael never interfered with the rebel forces of Lucifer; they were allowed to run a free course for almost two hundred thousand years of Urantia time. Christ Michael now has ample power and authority to deal promptly, even summarily, with such outbreaks of disloyalty, but we doubt that this sovereign authority would lead him to act differently if another such upheaval should occur.

53:5.4 Since Michael elected to remain aloof from the actual warfare of the Lucifer rebellion, Gabriel called his personal staff together on Edentia and, in counsel with the Most Highs, elected to assume command of the loyal hosts of Satania. Michael remained on Salvington while Gabriel proceeded to Jerusem, and establishing himself on the sphere dedicated to the Father—the same Universal Father whose personality Lucifer and Satan had questioned—in the presence of the forgathered hosts of loyal personalities, he displayed the banner of Michael, the material emblem of the Trinity government of all creation, the three azure blue concentric circles on a white background.

53:5.5 The Lucifer emblem was a banner of white with one red circle, in the center of which a black solid circle appeared.

53:5.6 "There was war in heaven; Michael's commander and his angels fought against the dragon (Lucifer, Satan, and the apostate princes); and the dragon and his rebellious angels fought but prevailed not." This "war in heaven" was not a physical battle as such a conflict might be conceived on Urantia. In the early days of the struggle Lucifer held forth continuously in the planetary amphitheater. Gabriel conducted an unceasing exposure of the rebel sophistries from his headquarters taken up near at hand. The various personalities present on the sphere who were in doubt as to their attitude would journey back and forth between these discussions until they arrived at a final decision.


Caligastia was located on Urantia and was set to decieve
Quote:
Throughout this period Caligastia was advocating the cause of Lucifer on Urantia. The Melchizedeks ably opposed the apostate Planetary Prince, but the sophistries of unbridled liberty and the delusions of self-assertion had every opportunity for deceiving the primitive peoples of a young and undeveloped world.


Remember in the Bible the book of Job Satan moved around freely and even appeared before God to accuse the brethren. However this ended when Jesus fufilled his mission being given all power on in Heaven and Earth, Matt 28. Then Satan was cast out of Heaven by war as detailed in Revelation 12. Christ Michael gained the power to fully deal with the rebellion after his bestowal and crowning as sovereign.


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Urantia states that they use human terminology whenever they can, instead of using their own language. That should help clarify that for you. The urantia author's actually do state that there are Universe personality's that do function as "morning stars". The term "morning star refer's to a "star" or venus that comes up just before the sunrise as you know. So basically what the urantia author's are saying is that universe personality's do serve as metaphorical "morning star's" to a "sunrise".

You can delve deeper into this mystery of the nature of "morning star" by trying to understand that the author's are trying to portray an aspect of divinity by using human concepts and terminology when it is best suited. So we can see that "morning star" best suites the role that "lucifer" had. Urantia does not specifically give you the etymology of each word but if you look up the etymology of some of the unique words in the urantia book you will see that they fit with the sentence eerily perfect.

such as Urantia- the english etymolgy of that word is actually "your heavenly abode". see the author's did not state that, but they let you discover how that word has meaning in the english language on your own.

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The Bright and Morning Star (Gabriel) in essence is nothing other than the eldest son of a local universe and not very different from Brothers and Voronandek Lananondek.
This inevitably brings us a direct link between the expression Bright and Morning Star and the Sons Lanonandek, the same that apperteneva Lucifer.

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My Dearest Sister, Eve,

It sounds as though a thorough reading of "The Time Lag of Mercy" is in order for a clear answer to your current disappointment. Michael is neither an aunt or an uncle, but the father of all in our local universe. Lucifer, being the Lanonandek Son that he is, brought forth the Lucifer Manifesto; it is a revealing read, as well. It gives the seeds of knowledge to the whole rebellious affair, allowing us mere mortals an understanding to why the errors that exist in this planet's past, present, and future have, are, and will occur. It includes lessons that I can apply in my life regarding how and why the world works, or doesn't, today, showing the proper actions I can then take towards my fellows as an adult Son of God!

And importantly, freedom can come from the growing realization that all the destruction in the wake of the rebellion has a value to us greater than all the pain involved. For every 1 unit of pain we have been enduring, we will realize 1000 units of reward in the long term. Hard to believe, I know, but it is in coming to terms with this truth that one can find a magnificent freedom. Try it!

Keep it real,

Steven


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Greetings, John here. Keep in mind that The Ubook presents itself as a revelation, not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but. The authors infact state that there will be things we may find not fully accurate. Consider who we are. Relatively speaking we are a new species in the universe with a retarded God concept. The simple lessons Jesus endeavored to teach us we still fail to comprehend as a species. The Ubook seems to be an effort to clarify, with advanced revelation and higher concepts of religeous philosophy, why we should believe in the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of the human species.
Revelation is presented in quantity greater than our understanding can grasp to insure we comprehend as much as possible. Try reading the Energy, Mind, and Matter paper. The repercussion being that much gets absorbed as well as some gets lost, but it upsteps our understanding nontheless.
Consider what Christianity became after Jesus left. Had Christianity made their religion about the teachings of Jesus rather than about the person of Jesus we may not have even needed the Ubook. But here we are. As a species we are still all too willing to slaughter our brothers wholesale in the name of God. Can there be any greater blasphemy in the universe?
What I recieved from the Ubook is a reasonable religious philosophy supported by a consistant God concept. I came to the realization that God is sane even though we are surrounded by insanity due to our own imperfection and limited perspective. Will I indeed meet the celestial entities described in this body of work? I truely do not KNOW. I'll find out when I take my dirt nap. One thing I am sure of; they will look nothing like I imagine. Just another brother, John.


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so i guess in other words, the authors purposely chose this manner of story telling because they full knew it was the best way for us to understand them. could you imagine trying to teach japanese literature too a ww2 pasific theater vet. not only would he curse at you and get really offendend but yea like would he even begin to understand it? i think the authors did a good job explaining to us everything and we should be honored that they care about us. just my two cents:)


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Well, from a legalist view, Jesus was also known as the Morning Star and Day Star...two of several appellations referring to the Master.

The thread brings into question "How to resolve?" I expect one idea we will need to give up is the personification of evil. This is a very deeply ingrained idea. However, as we increasingly displace this need, I believe we will find added strength of will to take personal responsibility for our acts of will. As we cast of the shackels of sin-mindedness, I pray we will discover our intentional relationship with Deity and slowly learn to desire son-mindedness.

IMHO, this 'son-mindedness' helps overcome the need to personify evil. To whatever degree one is successful in this effort, in that one mind, Lucifer has been adjudicated...all but forgotten.


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john p wrote:
Greetings, John here. Keep in mind that The Ubook presents itself as a revelation, not the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but. The authors infact state that there will be things we may find not fully accurate. Consider who we are. Relatively speaking we are a new species in the universe with a retarded God concept. The simple lessons Jesus endeavored to teach us we still fail to comprehend as a species. The Ubook seems to be an effort to clarify, with advanced revelation and higher concepts of religeous philosophy, why we should believe in the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of the human species.
Revelation is presented in quantity greater than our understanding can grasp to insure we comprehend as much as possible. Try reading the Energy, Mind, and Matter paper. The repercussion being that much gets absorbed as well as some gets lost, but it upsteps our understanding nontheless.
Consider what Christianity became after Jesus left. Had Christianity made their religion about the teachings of Jesus rather than about the person of Jesus we may not have even needed the Ubook. But here we are. As a species we are still all too willing to slaughter our brothers wholesale in the name of God. Can there be any greater blasphemy in the universe?
What I recieved from the Ubook is a reasonable religious philosophy supported by a consistant God concept. I came to the realization that God is sane even though we are surrounded by insanity due to our own imperfection and limited perspective. Will I indeed meet the celestial entities described in this body of work? I truely do not KNOW. I'll find out when I take my dirt nap. One thing I am sure of; they will look nothing like I imagine. Just another brother, John.



I have to agree. This was written in the 30s, and pssibly earlier and didnt arrive here until then. We were less advanced back then. Our universe brethren were not allowed to tell us everything. See the following verses:

(1233.7) 112:5.11 There are two difficulties that hamper my efforts to explain just what happens to you in death, the surviving you which is distinct from the departing Adjuster. One of these consists in the impossibility of conveying to your level of comprehension an adequate description of a transaction on the borderland of the physical and morontia realms. The other is brought about by the restrictions placed upon my commission as a revelator of truth by the celestial governing authorities of Urantia. There are many interesting details which might be presented, but I withhold them upon the advice of your immediate planetary supervisors. But within the limits of my permission I can say this much...

(1308.1) 119:0.1 CHIEF of the Evening Stars of Nebadon, I am assigned to Urantia by Gabriel on the mission of revealing the story of the seven bestowals of the Universe Sovereign, Michael of Nebadon, and my name is Gavalia. In making this presentation, I will adhere strictly to the limitations imposed by my commission.

We also have to remember that the Bible went through revisions, translations, and changes by the church. The UB has never been polluted like that.


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