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 Post subject: Sleeping Subject
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I recently purchased a dozen TUB's at what I think is a really excellent price and I have run into authorship questions from possible recipients that seem unanswerable. ($13.67 each with free shipping from amazon.com)

I've noticed that human 'credentials' seem to justify an author's reliability and validity, especially in the absence of word of mouth recommendations.

As it turns out so far, 6 out of 7 of the recipients of my gifts are willing to begin reading TUB because I gave it to them. I look forward to future conversations with them.

The one who would not consider TUB asked about authorship and said his Internet research indicates the book was false because it was 'channeled' which he indicated was unacceptable to his biblical perspective.

I recall that my own research indicated William Sadler was a debunker of channeling, but I don't recall what conclusions he arrived at about the "sleeping subject" or the method used to communicate the answers to Dr. Sadler's inquiries.

One of the recipients asked about the sleeping subject. When was the book written (1920's?), name (sleeping subject?), a male (yes), married (?), family (?), location (Chicago?) birth place (?), occupation (?). I didn't know how to answer most of his questions.

I attributed authorship to the individual identities of the celestial personalities located at the end of each of the papers. Actually, one of the recipients, age 56, values the credentials of Melchizedek from something he recalls from his youth (<8 years old).

Another recipient is interested in the entire earth life of Jesus because the bible omits ages 12 to ~30 years old (that is also what drew me to the book). Another looks forward to reading about individual topics of interest and still another looks forward to exploring philosophy and ethics.

I am beginning to believe dissemination of TUB is related to personally knowing another person well enough to know what interests them, in addition to, what they perceive about the personality of the one who gives it to them.

I wonder. No one gave me TUB. Is there a difference in its value when it is given by another person or when it is found by one seeking Truth who stumbles upon it (Part IV) in their search at a bookstore?

I recall reading that TUB would not be read if it just suddenly materialized on a shelf somewhere. I questioned that idea, but I do appreciate the work that so many personalities performed to get it into my hands. And it does seem to be the work that has value.

Thank you,
teresa


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Hi Teresa,

You bring up a perfectly valid and logical point that will be of some concern to some people.

The Sleeping Subject played only what could be called a "minor technical" role in the transmission of the Papers. If it were not for him, the Revelators would have found a different technical avenue for transmission. It has also been stated that the SS's identity has been kept secret so as not to faciliate his becoming venerated or any other undue special consideration attached to his person. He had no conscience idea that he was playing any part at all.

Same general reasoning behind Jesus intentionally leaving no writings of his own behind. His teachings were all about the spiritual kingdom in the hearts, minds and souls of all of the Father's children on earth. While the teachings are special, "holy books" are not.

If the fellow you mention didn't reject take a look at The Urantia Book over authorship issues, I think he would have readily offered a different reason for not taking it.

There is no one format or formula for interesting other persons into taking a look at this book. There are just too many variables involved. Do what you can in each case and in ways that seem best to you. The times that you meet with apparent "failure," it will not be your fault.

When on traveling preaching and teaching tours, Jesus instructed the apostles to simply move on to the next town if the peoples a town were not receptive to the message.

So don't take it personally Teresa. You'll always get credit on high for the trying!

Best wishes,


Vann

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Teresa,

The history of the Urantia Papers is definitely an interesting subject but as many people have discovered, where the papers came from is not as important as what they tell us. On the other hand, sometimes you just want to know! :) On my webpage, I have an online version of a book by Larry Mullins with Dr. Meredith Sprunger which explains the whole history of how the book came to be based on all the information they were able to gather. You can read it at the following link:

http://www.divinitywithinus.org/study/AHistoryoftheUrantiaPapers/AHistoryOfTheUrantiaPapers.htm

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Dear Teresa,

Here's another article you might find informative re: the Sleeping Subject. It is written by Wm Sadler Jr, Dr Sadler's son.

maryjo


http://www.truthbook.com/urantia_book_c ... stence.cfm


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"You will doubtless live and die without realizing you are participating in the birth of a new age of religion on this world."


I have avoided reading too much of the histrocity of Urantia: The Big Squabble(s). But now I have. aahhh, the numbing influence of secularism, combined with the magical powers of nonsense.

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Teresa, in terms of your question as to whether TUB truth has more value if it is handed to you or found on a shelf. The truth is the truth. Moses heard it coming out of a burning bush and I've heard it out of the mouth of babes. I believe that once we begin on the search for God, the universe makes arrangements to assure that we find him. Once we find him and start looking for more and more of him, he just shows up anywhere and everywhere.

iris


Last edited by Bonita on Tue May 06, 2008 6:48 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Teresa, first of all let me tell you I love what you are doing. I think it's wonderful you giving the book with the personal attention you offer to your brothers and sisters. They already know you are spiritual person because you live your spirituality.

They may read it or the may not. But the personal touch your are giving will be remembered by them if they pick it up again at a later time. I had a friend give it to me who loved science fiction. I hated science fiction and when he gave me the book after my first foray into the book, i dropped it like a hot potato before I even got started. Then searching for writings on the lost years of Jesus I picked it up and read Part IV and I've been reading it ever since. That’s about 27 years now. :shock:

Anyway the "sleeping subject" and early History of TUB over the years gets brought up again and again. There are probably 10 to 20 good lively contested discussions on this topic buried in these forums. If you use the search function here on "sleeping subject" in quotes and select the option to "use all terms" and click on the option "posts" instead of the default "topics". You'll probably pull something up. I just pulled this up from one of those many threads.


Plagiarism and the Urantia Book
here

Hey Randy, from the History on the Urantia site,
http://urantiabook.org/index_history.htm

I always figured they started about 1911.
http://urantiabook.org/archive/history/h_timlin_2.htm
Quote:
Quote:
1911
Sadlers go abroad to study psychiatry at clinics in Leeds, England and in Vienna3
Dr. Sadler's first encounter with the "sleeping subject" described in the Appendix from "The Mind at Mischief." 9 Date of actual first "contact" with revelators is disputed and ranges from 1905 to 1911. Some sources believe this occurred in mid-April, 1908. Dr. Sadler is reported to have acknowledged that this 1911 date was an error. Wilfred and Anna were reported to have been in California at the time of the first "contact." Wilfred had uncontrollable flatulence and tried to avoid social gatherings which resulted in speculation that perhaps he was the 'sleeping subject.' Some sources indicate that Dr. Lena Sadler was a key figure in making possible the reception of the revelation. She is reported to have believed right from the start that something significant was occurring whereas Dr. Sadler remained skeptical until 1936. He wanted to abandon the process at several points but continued at her insistence. The process started as a result of the husband of a patient of Dr. Lena K. Sadler who consulted with her husband, Dr. William S. Sadler, due to the "bizarre behavior of the gentleman." It is reported that the "Sleeping Subject" "never crossed the threshold at 533" and that he "never paid Doc a cent for medical treatments." Bill Sadler maintained in private conversations that if anyone involved were a destiny reservist, it was his mother--he indicated that her participation was the critical element for the success of the undertaking.23


Randy I doubt that you would find many here claiming that TUB is the one and only source of truth. But you may find many for whom TUB didn’t replace their personal truth but rather made their personal truth stronger.

I have to agree with Swan:

Quote:
Was Urantia the work of Sadler's "mind at mischief?" I don't know and I don't care. Does the content of the book inspire me to go further in my spiritual journey? Yes.


and The first readers of the Papers whom Dr. Sader chastized. He chastized the TUB readers in a similar manner and basis in which you chastize those currently who give the Book to much credence:

Quote:
Quote:
From the Revelation Community History 1927:

Dr. Sadler maintains he is still highly skeptical of the process.
Meredith Sprunger relates, "He told me that as they read the early Urantia Papers he observed that many of the group including his wife were beginning to be highly impressed by their content. So one Sunday he made a speech about the importance of objectivity and a critical approach to this material. The response he got when he finished was sort of a testimony meeting. The essence of the Forum's reaction was, 'We don't care who wrote it--it simply makes more sense than anything we have read along this line.' But Dr. Sadler observed that his professional reputation was at stake. He had declared there were no genuine mediumistic phenomena and he wasn't going to allow one baffling case to change his mind."3


As far as the guy who did the WEB search and focused on all the negative stuff. Ask him what parts of the Bible he likes best and what are the hardest questions about God that he has answered or would like to answer in his life. Is there anything that he feels is missing spiritually in his life? Then we can offer some TUB excerpts pertinent to his questions or likes and dislikes and let him weigh them in comparison to his queries.

O Peace Teresa. If you feel like posting more on their progress I'd be interested in knowing how they are doing.

Thanks Teresa. God Bless you and all you family and friends.
:smile:

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The one who would not consider TUB asked about authorship and said his Internet research indicates the book was false because it was 'channeled' which he indicated was unacceptable to his biblical perspective.


My experiences have taught me to try to avoid promoting the mysteries of Urantia's compilation as those I introduce to the book either take a position similar to the above, or, venerate the mystery and avoid the content.

Quote:
I am beginning to believe dissemination of TUB is related to personally knowing another person well enough to know what interests them, in addition to, what they perceive about the personality of the one who gives it to them.


That's the ticket, teresa! Maybe that's what personal ministry is all about -- taking the time to know others (and ourselves) before removing those planks from them and us? I've certainly had more success when asked a genuine question and then providing a paper or book roman numeral as recommended reading.

Quote:
I wonder. No one gave me TUB. Is there a difference in its value when it is given by another person or when it is found by one seeking Truth who stumbles upon it (Part IV) in their search at a bookstore?


I started with the History of Urantia because that's what interested me most. I became enthralled in what I was reading and kept on reading, front to back, using Books I and II as a glossary, so to speak, as I stumbled over concepts presented in III and IV. Oh boy, was my soul hungry and how my TA danced. (I might have even heard him/her/it say, "By George, I think he's got it!") :roll:

Knowing my personality and considering what I read from Tony and Maryjos links, I'm glad I stayed away from the organizations. Otherwise the BIG TURN OFF. Maybe that's the secular-based anti-religion in me, I dunno. But I am thinking that the world could use a Rodan or two right now.

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Greetings and thank you for your responses,

Van,

I did not understand your comment about the sleeping subject's "minor role" until I read Mary Jo's link. I didn't take the failure of the man who refused the gift personally, but rather I wondered what I could do to make the book more palitable for him. And in the meantime, I thought I could learn more myself.

I am not sure what you what you mean by 'credit' from on high. I recall asking another poster what credit meant. I am inclined to believe that we are receivers of good things we pass on and they are not our own. I would say that as they pass through us we are enriched by the process.

Tony,

I have not yet finished all the chapters of Mullins, History of the Urantia Papers, from the link you sent. Thank you for the information. I found it an interesting mystery that even Dr. Sadler wondered how the writing was accomplished. He indicates he made (two) promises not to divulge the identity of the sleeping subject AND the method by which the papers were received.

I do appreciate that the content of the papers speak for themselves and human authorship is not necessary.

Mary Jo,

Your link was a great help to me. The comments of William Sadler Jr. maintained the privacy of the sleeping subject's identity, keeping the promise he made. But I believe he did not make a promise regarding the method of receiving the papers which he did share.

The A -> B -> C-> D method he describes in two paragraphs actually has a biblical base which I will share with my friend with that perspective. In the Old Testament, an apparently detached finger wrote a message on a wall for persons to read. In the light of this information, the sleeping subject's identity is unnecessary. Rather, a biblical perspective could be important.


Iris,

Your observations of finding truth wherever one looks for it is my personal experience. Sometimes I find it when I'm not looking for it!

Joe,

I agree that having TUB in one's library is important even if it isn't read completely or immediately. I gave a copy to my brother and he read the last few papers and put it in his library. He told me it had taken him all of his 60 years to learn what he read there. He understood what he read from his personal experience and individual spiritual growth.

The Spirit of Truth will always accomplish His work as a Teacher, with or without a textbook.

Thank you all again,

teresa


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Hi Teresa,

By receiving credit on high, I simply mean that your angels will testify of your good works, either accomplished or just attempted.

By example in one place in the UB it states it's not so much what you (do) that matters, but God what sees as being more important is what you believe and how you think.

You see material circumstances may prevent you from performing a good deed, in this case attempting to advance the 5th Epocal Revelation, but what matters is that you believed in it and you wanted to perform the deed.

Here's another reference

159:2:1

".....[said Jesus] I tell you that, even when a cup of cold water is given to a thirsty soul, the Father's messengers shall ever make record of such a service of love."


Hope this helps,

Peace and service,

Vann

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Last edited by Vann on Sun Mar 09, 2008 4:58 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Joer kinda looks like Rodan, methinks. Bigger nose probably.

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teresa wrote:
The one who would not consider TUB asked about authorship and said his Internet research indicates the book was false because it was 'channeled' which he indicated was unacceptable to his biblical perspective.


Authorship is a valid question and deserves a truthful answer. Only the folks actually involved with the book's production know that secret and they have taken an oath of secrecy. It probably won't be until the next epochal revelation before anyone else knows.

In the mean time "unknown author" might help to get some folks to read TUB. I prefer to say "a composite of early 20th century intellectuals" :smile: .


Peace.

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Coyote Son said:

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In the mean time "unknown author" might help to get some folks to read TUB. I prefer to say "a composite of early 20th century intellectuals"


I don't think we should get into the habit of covering up the actual "authors" of the Urantia Book... if the person in question is not at the point of accepting the Urantia Book because of it's "authorship", then that person is not ready for the Urantia Book, just as I was not ready 30 years ago... when their time is come to be open to the FER, it will not matter who authored it to them...

KP

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Hi Coyote Son,

I think you may be missing the point here. The sleeping subject was a part of the transmission process, not an author. The authors of the book are listed in the front. That is who, or in the case of collaborative efforts like Part IV, wrote the book. Celestial personalities all, excepting for the Midayers of Part IV, who are residents here.

The unknown part is all of the exact details of precisely how the information was transmitted, and the identity of the sleeping subject.

Now, anyone is free to accept the celestial and Midwayer authorship of The Urantia Papers, or not. It doesn't matter.

Hope this helps,

Vann

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Vann wrote:
I think you may be missing the point here. The sleeping subject was a part of the transmission process, not an author. The authors of the book are listed in the front. That is who, or in the case of collaborative efforts like Part IV, wrote the book. Celestial personalities all, excepting for the Midayers of Part IV, who are residents here.


Technically it's the Urantia Foundation that's listed as authors of the book. My reply had more to do with answering Teresa's question and offering some helpful advice. It's more convincing than saying, "written by extraterrestrials".

I just finished reading this article provided by Tony and it does a very good job of shedding some light into the origin of TUB.
http://www.divinitywithinus.org/study/AHistoryoftheUrantiaPapers/AHistoryOfTheUrantiaPapers.htm

Vann wrote:
Now, anyone is free to accept the celestial and Midwayer authorship of The Urantia Papers, or not. It doesn't matter.


What you're really saying is it matters not to you. Everyone is different.

Kreneep wrote:
I don't think we should get into the habit of covering up the actual "authors" of the Urantia Book... if the person in question is not at the point of accepting the Urantia Book because of it's "authorship", then that person is not ready for the Urantia Book, just as I was not ready 30 years ago... when their time is come to be open to the FER, it will not matter who authored it to them...


To say unknown author isn't covering up anything. It just adds mystery to it's origin. Sort of like being sworn to secrecy. Edgar Cayce didn't have to cover up his identity. The biggest difference here is Edgar Cayce unconsciously vocalized what came through.

Consider this possibility; the sleeping subject made a pencil move on paper while unconscious.

Observe from Wiki; Psychokinesis "movement from the mind"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychokinesis

Hope it helps.


Peace.

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