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 Post subject: huh?
PostPosted:  
Hey, why does this book the Urantia, vehemently oppose the fact that Jesus had to die for our sins?
Yes, the cross represent God's love for us. But, Jesus had to die for us so that our sins could be forgiven. In Genesis God told Noah that the life of an animal is in its blood, and this set the way for sacrificing animals for atonement of sin in Leviticus. The may seem barbaric, but this was God's way of preparing the people of Israel to accept the blood of Jesus for a perfect atoning sacrifice. There is nothing we can do to get rid of sin. Plus, the bible says that the wages of sin is death. God is absolutely righteous and holy, so only when mans sins are covered by the righteous blood of Jesus, can he come to God. Jesus eternal life is in his blood.
So, his blood had to be shed for us in order that we could have eternal life through him. Also, the Bible is not a book written by scholarly or religious men. God's Holy Spirit was given to these prophets so that we could have God's Word with us whenever and wherever.
How can the Urantia preach about Jesus and reject the rest of the Bible? You can't be incosistent like that. I totally obliterates the reason why Jesus came for us and why he had to die. In the beginning man did fall and sinned. So Jesus had to atone for this sin. That is why nothing we can do can save us from our sins, only Jesus can, that was why he died on the cross. He prayed father forgive them so that we could be forgiven. God calls all of us to a Holy cause. He calls each and every believer in Jesus to preach the gospel. He has called everyone to study the scriptures and teach everyone about God (Acts 1:8). Jesus is the Son of God and it is through him, especially through his death and ressurection, that we can come to God.


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 Post subject: huh?
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:22 am +0000
Posts: 95
John 5:24 has Jesus showing how to obtain eternal life with no forthcoming condemnation without mentioning anything about a forthcoming crucifixion.

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 Post subject: the truth
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Dude, you don't know what you are talking about. If you read the gospels, at the time nearing Jesus crucifixion he tells his disciples over and over that he must suffer and rise after three days. He explicitly says this in the bible. He doesn't even put in parable form, so it is made clear. Also in Isaiah, which Jesus quotes more than a few times, it says exactly why Jesus had to be crucified.

Isaiah 53:4-12 says it clearly -

4 Surely he took up our infirmities
and carried our sorrows,
yet we considered him stricken by God,
smitten by him, and afflicted.
5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,
he was crushed for our iniquities;
the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,
and by his wounds we are healed.
6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,
each of us has turned to his own way;
and the LORD has laid on him
the iniquity of us all.


7 He was oppressed and afflicted,
yet he did not open his mouth;
he was led like a lamb to the slaughter,
and as a sheep before her shearers is silent,
so he did not open his mouth.
8 By oppression and judgment he was taken away.
And who can speak of his descendants?
For he was cut off from the land of the living;
for the transgression of my people he was stricken.

9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked,
and with the rich in his death,
though he had done no violence,
nor was any deceit in his mouth.

10 Yet it was the LORD's will to crush him and cause him to suffer,
and though the LORD makes his life a guilt offering,
he will see his offspring and prolong his days,
and the will of the LORD will prosper in his hand.

11 After the suffering of his soul,
he will see the light of lifeand be satisfied;
by his knowledge my righteous servant will justify many,
and he will bear their iniquities.
12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great,
and he will divide the spoils with the strong,
because he poured out his life unto death,
and was numbered with the transgressors.
For he bore the sin of many,
and made intercession for the transgressors.


God is abosolutely righteous and just so he can not tolerate wrong. The reason why we can't take our sin away is because God has to show us absolutely where he stands. Yes, he loves us, however he can not be with sin. He can't be relativistic either. He had to show us that right is right and wrong is wrong. So, nothing we can do can save us, or else what do we need God for? This is why Jesus had to die for our sins.
So my question is to you, is instead of believing this space age stuff, why not believe the bible which explains in detail the forthcoming of the Messiah Jesus Christ and the true reason why he came. It's all about your personal faith man. Either you're going to choose to believe the bible or Urantia. My safe bet is trusting the bible because at least what's written in the old testament is documented as true history. Whereas the Urantia story about the "future" and Jesus, who they call Michael for whatever reason, is based on some dudes account of some strange encounter with some weirdo in the 50's. You make the choice.

Another thing Harry, Jesus tells us that if we want to inherit the kingdom of heaven, we must deny ourselves, take up our cross, and follow him. So in fact, Jesus calls all of us to crucify our old lives and follow the mission of Jesus, which is to teach and preach the gospel. We are to forsake all of our dreams and ambitions for the sake of shepherding others like Jesus did. The reason why Jesus was exalted by God after his death was because he layed down his life and followed God's command onehundred percent. It's not about us and what make us happy now. It's not about what sounds acceptible and eases our souls. Life is about denying our feelings and thoughts to take up God's thoughts and commands so that we can do his will.

Romans 8:1 says that there is no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. Romans also says that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Yes, we are not condemned, but only if we accept the fact that the blood of Jesus has taken away our sins. We can't say that we are holy and sinless unless we accept Jesus blood.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
HarryHerbert thanks for giving your view. I'd just like to share something with you.
Quote:
John 5:36 "I have a testimony weighter than that of John. For the very work that the Father has given me to finish, and which i am doing, testifies that the Father has sent me."

Jesus clearly came to earth to do a job - the work his Father had given him to do. If Jesus death on the cross wasnt part of the work his Father wanted him to do why did he let himself be crucified? What was the point? Wouldnt it have been better for him to call legions of angles to fight for him - showing that he really was God. Wouldnt it have been better for him to come down from the cross if he really was the son of God - like those shouting at him wanted him to do?
If you read the Bible you will see that the cross was the reason Jesus came to earth - without the cross and the resurrection he may aswell not have come.

You put up this verse:
Quote:
John 5:24 has Jesus showing how to obtain eternal life with no forthcoming condemnation without mentioning anything about a forthcoming crucifixion.

Let me put up what Jesus said in John - before the chapter you put up.
Quote:
John 1:29 "The next day John saw Jesus coming towards him and said,"Look the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!"

As Christian already said, in the OT testiment a lamb was killed to atone for sins. Why was this the case? It is because of what God had said - see below:
Quote:
Leviticus 17:11 "....it is the blood that makes atonement for one's life"
Hebrews 9:22 "..and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness"

Then going back to John, lets read what Jesus said when taking to Nicodemus who was asking what he must do to get eternal life:
Quote:
John 3:14
Just as Moses lifted up the snake in the desert, so the son of man must be lifted up, that everyone who believes in him may have eternal life.

Why did Jesus use this parallel? Because Moses lifted up the pole with the bronze snake in the desert so that all who would look to the pole would be saved from the venom of the snake bite and wouldnt die.
Jesus was drawing a clear parallel with himself - that when he was lifted up (on the cross) that any man look to him and believe that Jesus died in his place for their sin - that they would be saved.

I havent time to post up everything but reading throught the gospels and the N.T you will find a lot more. I'll post up a bit more; Please bear with me :smile:
Quote:
John 10:11 "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd lays down his life for the sheep."

Jesus is clearly saying here that he will lay down his life for us - why? What was so important about him laying down his life? Read on and Jesus says more about deliberately laying down his life - his choice.
You'll find it's the same reason as was given to Nicodemus - it was essential if we were to be saved.
Quote:
John 12:23 "Jesus replied,"The hour has come for the Son of man to be glorified. I tell you the truth, unless a kernal of wheat falls to the ground and dies, it remains only a seed. But if it dies, it produces many seeds."

Again - Jesus clearly showing that if he didnt die his work would be pointless - but it was by dying that he would bring many sons to glory.

Jesus words on the cross and his time on the cross show that it was something exceedingly special that was happening.

-Jesus cried out to God, "My God, my God - why have you forsaken me?"

Why did God his father forsake him? You will find that it was because he had taken on himself the sin of the world - and God the father cannot look at sin and had turned away. - John the baptist said this in a verse a posted before 'that takes away the sin of the world'.

Then Jesus says just before he dies:
It is finished!

If you look at this word finished it literally means "PAID IN FULL" - used to end transactions.
Jesus had taken on the sin of the world on the cross and the penalty for sin had been paid in full by Jesus death - the death of a sinless man - God himself.

This is a great and marvelous truth!! This is the whole point of God becoming flesh! As Christian said all the sacrifices were a shadow of the ultimate perfect sacrifice - the shedding of blood that God required for forgivenness of sins.

In the letter to the Hebrews - this is explained, i'll put up a last quote from Hebrews 9
Quote:
Hebrews 9:14 "How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!"

I'd encourage you to read Hebrews 9 and 10 - your heart will be warmed indeed.

Jesus was the perfect sacrifice, he loved us so much that he died in our place -that anyone that believes in him, in his word and so accepts that he died on the cross for their sin - might have eternal life with him.
Jesus said that he is the way, the truth and the life - no man comes to the father but through me. (john 14) Only through accepting what Jesus did can we come to God - this is truly wonderful news!

I'm sorry if this is too long Harryhebert - may the Holy Spirit reveal the truth to you that you may be truly set free and see the wonderful thing Jesus did for you. It is truly a wonderful thing to know Jesus.
May God bless you


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 Post subject:
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Joined: Thu Sep 25, 2003 5:22 am +0000
Posts: 95
Endless

I wish to reply to your remark:

Quote:
If you read the Bible you will see that the cross was the reason Jesus came to earth - without the cross and the resurrection he may aswell not have come.

If Jesus himself had said this I would agree. However, Jesus said something different:
Quote:
Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, “Thou sayest that I am a king. TO THIS END WAS I BORN AND FOR THIS CAUSE CAME I UNTO THE WORLD, THAT I SHOULD BEAR WITNESS UNTO THE TRUTH. Everyone that is of the truth heareth my voice.” John 18:37

Jesus lived a life totally dedicated to doing the will of the Father. Everything, which he said and did, was under the direct instructions of the Father. The purpose of it all was to enable man to see the Father in action and thus see his nature, his personality, his mercy, and the way he reacted to things. Jesus constantly pointed out that it was the Father in motion that they were seeing. In one of his final prayers Jesus said:
Quote:
“I have glorified thee on the earth: I have finished the work which thou gavest me to do.” John 17:4
Presenting the truth about the Father, thus glorifying Him, was his mission. It was the work he was sent to do.

It appears to me that Jesus made it clear that the reason that he was born and came into this world was to bear witness to the truth. In John 17:4 He prays to the Father in effect that in glorifying the Father on earth, he had finished the work he was sent to do.
Yes, John and many of the other disciiples never seemed to understand this and embellished his mission with his death being a vicarious atoning sacrifice. That is fine and good, but they didn't come from the presence of the Father, Jesus did. I choose to listen to His explanation as to the purpose of his mission. He knew he was going to be crucified and had many opportunities to attach a significance to it and didn't. John the Baptist made political enemies and subsequently was beheaded by his enemies. Jesus also made enemies and they saw to his death. At no time did Jesus resort to miraculous power to enable himself to escape the natural results of his actions. He was not a whimp and was willing to die to finish what he started and to therefore show how strongly he believed in his message.
I read the Bible for 30 years. My acceptance of the Urantia Book resulted in it ratifying such truths as I have presented here.

harry hebert

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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
You are correct that Jesus came to testify to the truth - he was God made flesh - everything he said was the truth. That is why his name is Emmanuel 'God with us'.
What was the truth that Jesus was bearing witness to?
It was that through him and through him only could people be saved.

But Nicodemus went and asked Jesus how to get eternal life - Jesus reply i posted above in my last post - clearly indicating his death - and comparing it - deliberately with the snake in the desert that Moses lifted up.

You have choosen not to address any other remarks i made concerning what Jesus said about his crucifiction. You have also choosen not to address what Christian wrote - concerning the prophecies about Jesus - that he would come - that he would be the saviour of his people - That he bore the sin of many and made intercession for the transgressors

The Bible clearly states that prophecy doesnt have it's origin in man - but it is from God.
From your 30yrs of Bible reading Harryhebert - if the cross is of no value saving wise, when did Jesus bear our sins? When was blood shed so God could forgive our sins? - unless you say that God lied when he said that there was no atonement for sin unless blood was shed?

You know that God is pure and Holy and sin cannot be before him - so obviously you have to be forgiven HarryHebert for your sin? What blood was shed so that your sins are being forgiven?

HarryHebert - i say this with love, the disciples whom Jesus taught and appeared to after he arose, were correct - it can be no other way, if you have been reading and studying the Bible for 30yrs you will have seen this so clearly.

Let me give you a last quote before i go:
This is when Jesus appeared to the disciples on the road to Emmaus.
Quote:
Luke 24:24 "He said to them, "How foolish you are, and how slow of heart to believe all that the Prophets have spoken! 26, Did not the Christ have to suffer these things and then enter glory?" 27, And beginning with Moses and all the prophets, he explained to them what was said in the scriptures concerning himself.

Christ had to die on the cross - Jesus explained the reason why from what was prophesised about him. Christian has already posted up Isaiah 53 - clearly a prophesy that Jesus was to die for our transgressions.

Jesus explained this to the disciples who inturn hurried back and told the others - since this teaching was from Jesus and is totally confirmed beyond doubt by the OT prophecies - are you still confident the disciples got it wrong???? God doesnt lie and he doesnt change.
Or maybe you know where it was revealed in the OT that Jesus didnt die for our sins - if this is true then what was there for Jesus to explain from the scriptures about himself? - Maybe you could post up the scripture clearly referring to Jesus having not died for our sins - cause if what you say is true then Jesus must have used it for this purpose.

harryhebert, the evidence is overwhelming - OT prophecies that Jesus would take upon himself the sins of many, be crucified - his birth - all foretold, revealed by God himself because noone else can know the future. Clearly stating that Jesus was to die for our sins.

Let me tell you something, the thing the devil wants to cover up the most is Jesus death on the cross for our sins. Because that is the power of the message. I didnt know that your book denied it - but i wasnt surprised. The same is true for the Muslim faith - Christ apparently didnt die, but someone else took his place.
Have a look into this if you feel like it - look at all the cults based on the Bible - you will find that the power is taken out of the crucifiction, and the shedding of blood for forgiveness of sins pushed out of the way.

You've read the Bible for 30yrs - you know the prophecies and yet select a little of what Jesus has said, to convince yourself that the saving power of Jesus death isnt needed...

What else is there HarryHebert that your book you follow says that makes it so hard to accept the death of Jesus as the only way? That you would accept another book over the word of God?

I pray you will find the truth HarryHebert.

HarryHebert, i have one more quote for you - this is Jesus talking here, believing what you do, i want you to tell me what exactly Jesus is saying here.
Quote:
Mark 10:45 "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many"

This verse shows that you are right to say the purpose of Jesus coming was to reveal the truth but as Jesus also shows here it was to give his life as a ransom for many.

Jesus' own words confirm what Christian and i have been saying - do you believe now? I pray that you would.

Jesus using the word give is backed up by what he said in John 10 - that he lays down his life of his own accord. Jesus being God could easily have stopped it.
Also Jesus using the word Ransom is crucial - he's giving his life in the place of many. Why? Because as shown by the prophecies and what he said to Nicodemus - he was to take the transgressions of many on himself - he was our ransom - he paid the price that we could never pay. Lived a sinless life and perfect blood was shed - an acceptable ransom for God. That whosoever believes in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Look to Jesus HarryHebert and accept the ransom he paid in your place that if you accept what he did and confess your sins you will be his.

It's the truth HarryHebert - and is a wonderful truth, i praise God for saving me, when i deserved nothing. Amazing Grace it truly is - and no doubt Christian too will testify to this.

Email address is david_hammy@hotmail.com - i'll be here but if you ever feel like asking or talking give me an email.

Thanks and praise the Lord!


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 Post subject: Forums are tricky
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Posts: 95
David,

I thank you for your thoughtful and caring post. I have learned that forum discussions can mislead us sometimes. I could have written a point by point comparison to have been more detailed. However, I have had this identical discussion scores of times and am tired of repeating myself even if you are unaware of prior discussions on this and other forums I frequent. Therefore, the absence of any rebuttal might lead you to believe that I have none. Sometimes this is the case but not always. One must remember that just because one appears to have 'won' a debate on a forum usually means nothing. It may just mean that the other party has spent all the time that they care to spend discussing an issue.

I will grant you this much: From the posture of a Bible inerrancy approach, you presented your case well. I would advise you to remain in that posture if you wish an untroubled spirituality.

I lost my belief in Bible inerrancy 30 years ago and all that I have learned since strengthens that stance. It, however, places the responsibility on me to determine, with the aid of the Spirit of Truth, what is wheat and what is chaff. This is a never ending endeavor which can be both rewarding and disappointing. Some have become Urantia Book fundamentalist just as you are a Bible fundamentalist. Some glean the best from each book. No one can determine what comprises truth for you unless you let them.

This is a Urantia Book forum which carries with it the intent that those who post have both read the book and embrace its tenents as valid. I would never join or visit Christian forums and attempt to upbraid their beliefs because it would be improper. Likewise, those who come in this forum to ridicule and rebuke the very basis of the forum need not be alarmed if they are ignored, rebuked, banned, or have their remarks not replied to. I am not saying that you did any of those things, however.

I hope you feel that you have been treated in a civil manner. I appreciate the opportunity to engage in private e-mail but respectfully decline primarily do to my time constrainsts. I respect the way you stand up for what you believe and wish you well.

Harry Hebert

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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
No one dies for anyone else's sins...
Whoso desireth resurrection, let him begin to resurrect himself.

Harry Herbet 'spoke' well. He spoke from the heart
Endless, you 'spoke' less from your heart but heavily relied on Biblical quotes. This will cost you a lot because you've decided to put the Kingdom of God in the Bible and not in you where it should be.
Else how have people repeated sold their souls to outside resources?
Outside resources(Bible, Urantia Book, Course in Miracles,...) are only a guide and not the whole of it. The whole of it is within you.

Meta.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Thanks for the reply HarryHebert - i do realise the time constraints and thought that may have been why you didnt have time to reply - to reply to everything makes each answer longer and longer :smile:

From the view point of Bible inerrancy - do you hold what Jesus says in the Bible to be inerrant? If you hold it to be wheat and chaff, then you can take anything you want and reject that which you feel uncomfortable with. Scripture is then no longer 'God breathed' and prophecy no longer had it's origin in God - for God cannot lie, nor make a mistake.
There is no Spirit of Truth.....

In the quote in my last passage i quoted Jesus - and i quoted a prophecy that had to have been from God and i quoted what Jesus said to Nicodemus when he asked what he must do for eternal life.

If you do not accept what Jesus himself said then unfortunately there is nothing more i can do, for you can take what you want from the Bible and discard any teachings or things of Jesus that you do not want.

Jesus himself said, "I am the way, the truth and the life - no man comes to the Father but through me"

Only through Jesus - nothing more, nothing less. If you believe this i pray you would believe what else Jesus said concerning his life being given as a ransom for many.

I appreciate the time you took to reply and i will be praying that you will find the truth. Thanks again your time is much appreciated - and i dont see myself as having won anything, i was only discussing with you and i hope you benefitted from it as i have done.
God bless.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Meta, i didnt put the Kingdom of God anywhere - i am part of it and it isnt mine to put where i will. I put the saving power, the truth of what Jesus did for us on the cross on this forum.
You say that noone else dies for anyone's sins - that is true because all others have sinned and cant pay anyone elses penalty, but God who had no sin took on himself our sins - anyone who trusts in what he did and puts their hope in him - will be saved.

If you read my last 2 posts you will see this; For what else did Jesus mean when he said, "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many"

I have relied on what Jesus said - Biblical quotes - the record of what he said by those that where with him when he taught.
I know what Jesus did for me - it's confirmed by the Spirit - the marvelous thing that he did for us on the cross.

I have posted up, and shown what Jesus said, what the disciples clearly understood because of what he said. It's all in the posts above - and i pray that those who read will understand.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Endless,
Thanks for the posting.

1. It's good to hear that you are a part of the kingdom of God...well said.

2. I also read your previous postings. I was raised up a christian reading the Bible.
Uhhhm, one other concern though, if you pay more attention, the more you interact with the Urantia Book readers, the more you will find that they understand the Bible more than you do. For example, with the personality (i.e Harry) whom you've been chatting with, take a little time and read his website for a start (to just break you free of the bondage holding you before you begin seeking). It speaks more than what he has written in reply to you so far.

3. I believe that eventhough someone has never sinned, they can not pay for anyone else's sins. All they can do is to 'raise up' those who have sinned through living the right way in 'pure thought, word and deed' Jesus showed this again. Melchizedek of Salem showed this too even as he was preparing a way for Christ's arrival..some 2000yrs before A.D. So no other way is there than through 'love and service to one another'. Definitely you may suffer for it physically because the world is still hinged to egoistic desires but not spiritual suffering for those who know what a
spiritual kingdom is all about and endeavour to teach others about it without letting those others and the little children to go astray.
Jesus never went through any suffering spiritually on the cross because his was/is a spiritual kingdom.
Anyone who knows this feels not pity for the conditions Christ passed through physically but pity to those who caused such conditions to Jesus. Christ himself showed this pretty well to everyone and more specifically in 'word form' to even a woman whom he was trying to comfort while carrying that cross during the crucifix times. That's why the 'crucifix' means nothing in heaven, faith means everything in the heaven because faith does alot to move planets, solar systems, galaxies, universes and superuniverses (everything that has consciousness) in unison following the ultimate will of God, the same faith that moves you forward God-wards in God's kingdom even while here on earth or not which is also the same faith in you that saves you from sin...it's as clear as saying "Whoso desireth resurrection, let him/her begin to resurrect him/herself"

Those who have not an ear for music, discover not a single tune.
Meta.
_________________________________________________
Some people labor for the raising of the spirit, which is purity,
and love, and goodness, and justice; such people are on the
right road to become the 'chosen ones' of God. But when they
strive, every one for him/herself, such people are beginning to fall.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted:  
Ummmm..... I'm nowhere near as eloquent with words as y'all, but it seems to me that:
A)Humans are hard-wired to attack that which they don't understand; a good early-times survival tactic, but doesn't do much in modern times to
improve personal growth(fear being a negative, destructive emotion).
B) Either God is the Ultimate Original Perfection with no room for imperfection and is unconditionally loving and forgiving, (or) God indulges himself in punishing behavior for wrongdoing,and required that an innocent(Jesus)be punished for that which he had no part in....and therefore, becomes non-divine by his very imperfect actions. Ya cain't have it both ways, ya know. God, being truely perfect in spite of the human imperfections doggedly attached to him, would never hold a blowtorch to your butt for not behaving in eliteist ways.(Which, by all I've observed over the world, is quite an insidious, virulent poison.)


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 Post subject: Simplicity is the key
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Hi ALL,

May I too insert my inelegant observations here. I love what Harry said. It takes a lifetime to see and hear enough to know what he shared with us. Simplicity and profundity are two sides of the same coin. After all the dust settles, it seems clear that the pursuit is the active ingredient that produces the refined product; us. However, this refinement does not imply the same-ness we all expect to find. It is our willingness and desire to seek God that is key. He reveals that infinitesimal reflection of his true self to each seeker uniquely to the ability of that seeker. In no way does this diminish either God, or the understanding of inquirer. Little by little, it has dawned on me that religions, in their effort to “contain” God, and explain his infinity, do exactly the opposite. God created each of us, and He created each of us to be ETERNALLY different! Our “job” is not all to come to a common conclusion, complete with specific rituals. Our job is to stimulate each other to begin our individual searches. We are to inspire each other with our unique relationship and understanding of Father, much as we do in our families, where each member’s view of the other members is as different as they are.

So, does that mean God is unrecognizable between us? Certainly NOT! In fact, the marvelous part to what God has created, is that paradoxical simplicity; God is the absolute source of Love, and therefore in everyway we can understand, defines Love. If we can simply hold onto that fact, and never doubt that God’s love will direct us to the best of all possible outcomes, our lives and our world will instantly transform.

Bottom line; hours and pages of rhetoric serve only if they inspire one not yet committed to their PERSONAL search for God to begin to do so. Cloning other minds into agreement with us, is not only silly, it is not really possible, because Father’s kids are each unique!
:idea: :shock:

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Quote:
Ummmm..... I'm nowhere near as eloquent with words as y'all, but it seems to me that:
A)Humans are hard-wired to attack that which they don't understand; a good early-times survival tactic, but doesn't do much in modern times to
improve personal growth(fear being a negative, destructive emotion).
B) Either God is the Ultimate Original Perfection with no room for imperfection and is unconditionally loving and forgiving, (or) God indulges himself in punishing behavior for wrongdoing,and required that an innocent(Jesus)be punished for that which he had no part in....and therefore, becomes non-divine by his very imperfect actions. Ya cain't have it both ways, ya know. God, being truely perfect in spite of the human imperfections doggedly attached to him, would never hold a blowtorch to your butt for not behaving in eliteist ways.(Which, by all I've observed over the world, is quite an insidious, virulent poison.)

Hi Guest, interested in what you wrote there.

I would have to disagree that Humans are hardwired to attack what they dont understand. I dont understand all the space science but i'm not attacking it - infact i am intrigued by it.
As humans we always seek knowledge - what we dont understand we try and find ways to explain. So we are hardwired to study and try and understand that which we cannot sometimes understand.
So we as humans are hardwired to be curious about what we dont understand - this to me is quite clear.
But let me take for example an African example - the chamelion which changes it's colours. Some people groups fear the chamelion believing it to be a messenger of evil - therefore it is avoided and not touched.
So i also think that sometimes we can fear what we dont understand - bring a bushman into a bustling city and he wont start attacking everything. But he will be very fearful but i believe his fearfulness would give way to curiosity as he seeks to understand it once he realises there is nothing to fear.

To something else you wrote:
Quote:
God indulges himself in punishing behavior for wrongdoing,and required that an innocent(Jesus)be punished for that which he had no part in....and therefore, becomes non-divine by his very imperfect actions. Ya cain't have it both ways, ya know. God, being truely perfect in spite of the human imperfections doggedly attached to him, would never hold a blowtorch to your butt for not behaving in eliteist ways.

Am....what exactly are you getting your information from to paint that picture? Sure God has to punish sin - and he will sometimes do so for our own good.
If you are a father you will recognise the importance of discipline - God is our Father and it is the same with him. He would be showing himself very unloving if he didnt correct our sinful ways that we have fallen into.
Obviously like any human father he disciplines his children in love - i cant see you holding a blowtorch over your child if he does something wrong - so how can you assume the same about God.

I would be very interested to see where you get this picture of God from - is it the Bible? I can find no reference of it there, infact the Bible paints a very different picture of God and what happened at calvery - if you can support this view then do so.


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I have a question, and I think it fits in this (Skeptics Corner), as might also cut though some of the dialogue here.

If a man is lost in the wilderness as a boy, and raises himself with nothing but nature around him, No bible or written word... Is it possible for him to find God and grow in truth with what he has around him to discovers.

Stay true to the journey...the answers will be revealed. :smile:


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Answer: i dont know. But no-one knows the answer to that question - it could be one wild man would, but another wouldnt. We just dont know.


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