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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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xobeht wrote:
jsg


I respect your opinion.
There are many people who believe politically like you believe.

However, not all UB readers hold the same opinion politically, nor do they all believe the same way you believe about our current President.

Every President since I have been alive has been horribly criticized by the media, some more than others and so I stopped years ago listening to the negativity.
It has become so bad that people actually learn to HATE through the media influence.

It is my opinion that this new found hatred, based on media bias, is UNGODLY and IRRELIGIOUS and quite frankly, detrimental to our nation, to the UNITY of the people of our nation. I don't agree with it because it reeks of propaganda.

In the spiritual realm Unity is the hallmark of Divinity. There is the most amazing information in the Foreword of the UB on this thing called Unity. Because of the information in the Foreword I am convinced that Unity is a quality that the brotherhood of believers should strive for. Since there will always be such diversity of opinion and belief among UB readers, we as brothers and sisters of this gospel cannot allow these difference to separate us, to divide us.

Sincerely,
Paul


AMEN

Thank you.


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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Hi All...

On the face of it, this would seem to be a thread that is in violation of the forum guidelines. Specifically this one:

Quote:
The Jesusonian Foundation is a 501 (c) (3) Nonprofit Religious Foundation. Organizations with this classification are prohibited from conducting political campaign activities to influence elections to public office. Consequently, discussions about political campaigns, political parties, an individual's or group's political leanings, or politicians are not allowed and will be deleted. Nevertheless, one is permitted to discuss the issues of governance and administration, and ethical behavior, as they appear in the Urantia Book.


However, it is the most interest that has been shown here for a long time, and it is heartening to see that the discussion has not been all one-sided, but fairly balanced and posters have been using Urantia Book quotes to support their views.

In my view, these are unprecedented times. And the teachings of The Urantia Book are so helpful when discussing politics, governance, statesmanship, etc.

So, I have decided to allow the discussion to continue; however, I ask everyone who joins the thread to avoid attacks on either the president, or each other. Instead allow the teachings of the book to illustrate your views as best you can without name-calling. In fact, just using the term "the president" may be better than using the president's name at all. After all, this should not be an excercise in bashing the president, but possibly pointing out the ideals of governance and political ethics that we all might like to see.

This may be a slippery slope, but let's all try to keep our footing and our good sense and our respect for one another. The discussion will be closely monitored for heavy-handedness or intolerance. As fanofvan has wisely stated:

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The personalized attacks here violate the Guidelines and do not serve the discussion we might have on the reality of progress and evolutionary process we might consider. It is not what happens that matters so much as our response to what happens that matters in the realization of potential and progress.


So, perhaps we can shift our discussion along those lines and leave personalities out of it.

Sincerely,

MaryJo


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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fanofVan wrote:
Perhaps the reality and results and flouting of such false liberty might result in a more suitable response which inches us forward collectively through the shared consequences of suffering those inevitable outcomes?

Social evolutionary progress is often slow, painful, ugly, and even unrecognizable to those who focus so intently on the evil that all the truth, beauty, and goodness in the lense of perspective and motion of time gets obscured and lost to view.

Only the consequences of suffering evil enables and empowers some people to turn away from the causes of such suffering, we are taught, to make wiser choices. Ethics and morality are lacking at many levels of politics and commerce today and such examples are not unusual or hard to find in the USA or elsewhere today or our past. No single politician created this circus and farce...and it belittles the reality of cause and effect to focus so intently upon a temporary symptom while ignoring its cause I think.

It is inaccurate and pointless to blame one person or party for false liberty and the buffoonery of greed and self importance. Will those evils perish without our current platoon of clowns? Nope.

The personalized attacks here violate the Guidelines and do not serve the discussion we might have on the reality of progress and evolutionary process we might consider. It is not what happens that matters so much as our response to what happens that matters in the realization of potential and progress.


132:2.6 (1458.3) As you ascend the universe scale of creature development, you will find increasing goodness and diminishing evil in perfect accordance with your capacity for goodness-experience and truth-discernment. The ability to entertain error or experience evil will not be fully lost until the ascending human soul achieves final spirit levels.

132:2.7 (1458.4) Goodness is living, relative, always progressing, invariably a personal experience, and everlastingly correlated with the discernment of truth and beauty. Goodness is found in the recognition of the positive truth-values of the spiritual level, which must, in human experience, be contrasted with the negative counterpart—the shadows of potential evil.

In 153:1.3 we are told: "...Jesus fully understood how men prepare themselves for the decisions of a crisis and the performance of sudden deeds of courageous choosing by the slow process of the reiterated choosing between the recurring situations of good and evil. He subjected his chosen messengers to repeated rehearsals in disappointment and provided them with frequent and testing opportunities for choosing between the right and the wrong way of meeting spiritual trials...."

Me here: Should we expect better social outcomes before we realize a more spiritualized society? Our disappointments are our personal opportunities for progress and growth in the Spirit. Then will we make better choices personally AND collectively.

Sometimes only fire will purge the forests and prairies of the obstacles to new growth. Anyone else smelling smoke? Do any UB readers here doubt the inevitability of Light and Life and the million years of social progress already achieved on Urantia? Do any students of the Revelation doubt the importance and value of meanings to be discovered by the exposure of evil by its demonstration?

What is the best or better response? How will wisdom be expressed?

8)


Agreed, our current president is a symptom of past wrongdoing by previous administrations, no doubt. The ending of world war 2, when America realized it was an empire, and after we were the first to get and use nuclear weaponry, set the stage for the hubris and aggression that has been cloaked in promoting freedom and democracy around the world, and was when American Exceptionalism really began to be the dominant, if not conscious, cultural meme. The UB says in regard to government on a neighboring planet:

72:11.4 (819.3) Although these people maintain a powerful war establishment as a defense against invasion by the surrounding hostile peoples, it may be recorded to their credit that they have not in over one hundred years employed these military resources in an offensive war. They have become civilized to that point where they can vigorously defend civilization without yielding to the temptation to utilize their war powers in aggression. There have been no civil wars since the establishment of the united continental state, but during the last two centuries these people have been called upon to wage nine fierce defensive conflicts, three of which were against mighty confederations of world powers. Although this nation maintains adequate defense against attack by hostile neighbors, it pays far more attention to the training of statesmen, scientists, and philosophers.
************************************************************************************************************
Since the end of WW2, the various administrations of the US have killed more innocents than any other nation on earth (do your own research if you doubt this fact). The list of countries the US has invaded, bombed, occupied, overthrown governments or stirred unrest is very long (Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Vietnam, Guatemala, Syria, Cambodia, Korea, Grenada, Panama and more). Most, if not all, of these countries were not a threat to US citizens and all of them were not capable of attacking the US nor of defending themselves against our aggression. Isn't that what, when we were children, we would call a bully? The temptation to use military power to further economic and political ambitions is our downfall and certainly our current president is not responsible for these sins. History very well may look back at this time as the time when America suffered its first emperor, the embodiment and personification of American Exceptionalism.

**when I use the this line ***************, it means the end of a UB quote and the start of my comment.


Last edited by jsg on Sat May 23, 2020 2:32 pm +0000, edited 7 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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xobeht wrote:
I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe.
These institutions make money on bad news.
If it is not bad news it doesn't become news.


Jesus said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?”


The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with all things worldly. The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with what an individual believes or does not believe politically and in fact this brotherhood allows for an unfathomable diversity of opinion. What unites the brotherhood is the experience of spiritual kinship..... that's all !

Come one come all-- Trump supporters welcome!!

Paul



In reply to Paul's quote above: One can interpret Jesus's statement about all things earthly crashing in different ways. Does it mean we should not be too anxious about the future and about all that we have no control over? I think it does mean this and that makes sense to me. But does it mean we shouldn't strive to make the world we live in a better place, that we shouldn't stand up to and confront injustice and the suffering that humans inflict upon other humans? I doubt it. Our world is "crashing" because small groups of people with tremendous economic and military power want it to crash--to further their own cravings for profit and power. The idea of detachment, like all ideas, can be misused, misapplied and misunderstood. Let's not do that. Let's try and look inside at our own weakness and prejudices, let's try and see our own blind spots and at least attempt to understand. A person may have a legitimate grievance yet respond to that grievance in harmful, destructive or just plain foolish ways. Many of those people who voted for our current president had very legitmate grievances--jobs being sent oversees, homes being foreclosed upon, health care being unaffordable, unable to pay for college--these grievances are serious. But the reaction to those grievances are a whole different story--putting somebody in power who not only will not address those grievances, but continues to make them worse. The UB clearly states that a democracy will elevate the most mediocre among us if the electorate is lazy, deluded, uneducated or just plain stupid.

71:2.1 (801.13) Democracy, while an ideal, is a product of civilization, not of evolution. Go slowly! select carefully! for the dangers of democracy are:

71:2.2 (801.14) 1. Glorification of mediocrity.

71:2.3 (801.15) 2. Choice of base and ignorant rulers.

71:2.4 (801.16) 3. Failure to recognize the basic facts of social evolution.

71:2.5 (801.17) 4. Danger of universal suffrage in the hands of uneducated and indolent majorities.

71:2.6 (801.18) 5. Slavery to public opinion; the majority is not always right.


Last edited by jsg on Sat May 23, 2020 12:49 pm +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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In order to abide by the rules and decorum of this forum, I have edited my past usage of the word "Trump" and am no longer going to use the word but instead use the phrase "our current president". I hope that helps to defuse the intensity of our conversation and to encourage us to try and debate politics and religion (both very difficult to discuss as most of us already know) in a more thoughtful and rational manner...

My goal is to understand more deeply what is going on as we head into a time of deep uncertainty and confusion.

Jerry
http://www.jerrygerber.com


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xobeht wrote:
I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe.
These institutions make money on bad news.
If it is not bad news it doesn't become news.


Jesus said: “To a God-knowing kingdom believer, what does it matter if all things earthly crash?”


The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with all things worldly. The spiritual brotherhood is not concerned with what an individual believes or does not believe politically and in fact this brotherhood allows for an unfathomable diversity of opinion. What unites the brotherhood is the experience of spiritual kinship..... that's all !

Come one come all-- Trump supporters welcome!!

Paul


So, the press "tells me what to believe"? Hmm, I guess all the books I've read in the last few years about the history of democracy, corporate control of the government policy, war crimes, nuclear weapons policy and other subjects of interest to me don't count? Sometimes the news is distressing and sometimes it's positive. I can handle both. Just because the news is good or bad doesn't make it true or false. I'd rather have my eyes and mind open to what's going on in this world because, as the UB says, the life we're living NOW is the most important life because it's where we do our work. When I get to the Mansion Worlds then THAT will be the life I am concerned most about. But until then, I want to discover and understand the world I live in, not the world to come that I cannot yet know through experience. Does not the UB put great value on personal experience? Living in my head and having ideas about the next world is not my cup of tea. There's too much work and too much to learn and master down here on earth.

48:6.37 (555.5) You will learn that you increase your burdens and decrease the likelihood of success by taking yourself too seriously. Nothing can take precedence over the work of your status sphere—this world or the next. Very important is the work of preparation for the next higher sphere, but nothing equals the importance of the work of the world in which you are actually living. But though the work is important, the self is not. When you feel important, you lose energy to the wear and tear of ego dignity so that there is little energy left to do the work. Self-importance, not work-importance, exhausts immature creatures; it is the self element that exhausts, not the effort to achieve. You can do important work if you do not become self-important; you can do several things as easily as one if you leave yourself out. Variety is restful; monotony is what wears and exhausts. Day after day is alike—just life or the alternative of death.


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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Jerry,

about this comment I made:

"I find it funny how people listen to and believe what the press (media) tells them to believe."

I was referring, not to you or any one person. I was referring to the past verses the present. As a youngster watching the news in the 60's the news anchor only reported what "supposedly" happened and there was no "news anchor" commentary. Today you cannot hear a news story without a commentary either before the story or after or both. Today we are not only told the news we are also told just how to think about the news.

The UB points out continuously that our reactions to the world should be (like you pointed out) one of action. But Jesus clarifies that our actions should be "positive." aka: Righteous. In todays climate I don't see actions, I see reactions and panics. We have progressed scientifically but not spiritually (at least not in equal measure), that is our biggest problem. We (the planet) suffer from a lack of spiritual evolution. Our actions world wide in politics are sponsored by a secular mindset (as opposed to a Religions mindset).....
195:10.20 (2086.6) Christianity suffers under a great handicap because it has become identified in the minds of all the world as a part of the social system, the industrial life, and the moral standards of Western civilization; and thus has Christianity unwittingly seemed to sponsor a society which staggers under the guilt of tolerating science without idealism, politics without principles, wealth without work, pleasure without restraint, knowledge without character, power without conscience, and industry without morality.


The UB has clearly outlined the real social problems. The question is "How do we fix this?" and the different political parties are not evil, they just disagree on both what needs to be done and how to get it done.


I don't think we as a planetary people are there yet. I think we are in discovery mode (like you pointed out) where we critique our actions and determine what is good and what is bad. Today we are want to judge the past based on the morality of the present (an extremely negative and demoralizing technique). You mentioned the Vietnam war as one of our "acts of aggression." However the mind set in the 60's was one of preventing the spread of communism. We (the USA) wanted to do for Vietnam what we did for South Korea (look at South Korea today compared to its neighbor). Unfortunately we lost the Vietnam war through protests at home. Cambodia suffered a slaughter of 2 million after we pulled out. Sometimes we make the wrong choices at the wrong times. But to look back in time and judge it (as we do in today's climate) as an evil act perpetrated by an evil government I believe undermines a UNITY we need as a nation.

Yes, the UB states that Nationalism is a barrier to globalism yet to prematurely force globalism on the world before the world is ready for it will lead to disaster. The UB always states (like you pointed out) to move slowly and to be patient. I also could not agree with you more that the USA needs to get it's house in order. We all want a better country. I think that secularism will not get us there. I believe that the Real gospel of Jesus will.


159:5.9 (1770.1) Jesus did not hesitate to appropriate the better half of a Scripture while he repudiated the lesser portion. His great exhortation, “Love your neighbor as yourself,” he took from the Scripture which reads: “You shall not take vengeance against the children of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself.” Jesus appropriated the positive portion of this Scripture while rejecting the negative part. He even opposed negative or purely passive nonresistance. Said he: “When an enemy smites you on one cheek, do not stand there dumb and passive but in positive attitude turn the other; that is, do the best thing possible actively to lead your brother in error away from the evil paths into the better ways of righteous living.” Jesus required his followers to react positively and aggressively to every life situation. The turning of the other cheek, or whatever act that may typify, demands initiative, necessitates vigorous, active, and courageous expression of the believer’s personality.

People will always disagree on what needs to be done and how it is to be done.

The new documentary by Jeff Gibbs and Michael Moore "Planet of the Humans" is a fine example of two social dynamics that happen in today's culture; Manipulation and Social Over-reaction that I believe might not have happened in a world where the spiritual evolution kept pace with the scientific evolution.

These are my opinions although I try to use the UB to formulate them as best I can, they are still opinions and subject to imperfection and error. Just because I may seem to not agree with you on some points does not mean that I do not want to hear what you have to say. I want to hear from those I don't agree with, perhaps I might learn something in the process.

I hope this helps to clarify some of my thoughts albeit the difficulty of translating meaning using words.

Sincerely,
Paul


Last edited by xobeht on Tue May 26, 2020 1:03 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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Jerry,

Once again, there are journalists of good will and who have effective bullshit detectors. Media bias? What does that mean? What do you think the role of media should be in a democracy? Not speak truth to power? Our current president IS dividing us, he IS sowing chaos by calling Mexican people rapists and calling white supremacists "fine people" and by attempting to label any news that doesn't glorify him "fake news". He is an ungodly character by any standards, even politicians, and he is dangerous. It is not spiritual to call good evil and evil good; sentimentality and violence go hand in hand. Do you deny that our current president has inspired his followers at his rallies to commit acts of violence? i have seen and heard it with my own eyes. The nation really is divided. It's odd, to my mind, how some religious people do not see that our current president's god is money and that he's a secular materialist--every action he takes, every bill he signs and every policy he puts forth is designed to make the rich richer and everyone else poorer. Nothing spiritual or Jesusonian about that.

The watchword of the Urantia Book is PROGRESS. Is dismantling every environmental law progress? is tearing up treaties that have at least reduced some international tensions progress? Is threatening to use nuclear weapons on another nation progress? Is building walls progress? I prefer bridges.

Mental health professionals and experts in the fields of psychology and mental pathology have been warning us for several years about the mental and emotional sicknesses expressed in our current president's personality. Are they all merely haters? is everyone who is highly concerned that we have a lunatic for a president really just being haters? It's so easy--just call someone a hater because they have the ability to see a very sick character in a very high office of great responsibility. It's also hard to reason with someone who didn't use reason to come to their opinion in the first place.

As our current president himself said "I could stand in the middle of Fifth Avenue and shoot somebody, and I wouldn't lose any voters". He is smart enough to know that once people get bamboozled by a master con-man it's humiliating and shame-producing to admit you've been conned...





To comment on the above:
Well, with all the issues of our current leader he is supported mostly by the Religious right leaning citizens. These are the very same people who are the scaffolding upon which the new UB gospel of Jesus aka; the brother/sisterhood of mankind will be built. What I see in the media in the last 40 years or more is a gradual demonization of America Christianity in general along with the white American male (especially the baby-boomer).

It is one thing to pull women and minorities out of the social pits of the past. It is another thing to do this while demanding that another member of society be destroyed in the process and to add insult to injury--not being able to talk about it as that would be regarded as highly politically incorrect. Using your words...Nothing spiritual or Jesusonian about that.


I see a world where free speech is being disallowed because one side of the street does not want to hear what the other side has to say. You are right to point out the faults of society. I just don't think we will see much progress until both sides who seem to be at war with one another stop complaining and start listening to one another.

Everybody wants to be right/correct. Real Religion wants to be LOVING.
Knowledge speaks, Wisdom listens. (Jimi Hendrix)


To me, one of the greatest modern thinkers of today is Dr. Jordan Peterson. I know of many UB readers who would not give him the time of day. He is a lot like the UB. He takes a long time to get used to and says things that are shocking and off-putting for many people. Yet he holds an understanding of subject matter that, in the realm of psychology and social sciences, knows no equal. In interviews of Dr. Peterson (see Cathy Newman) with left leaning journalists, that media "bias" I spoke about is not just vividly apparent but openly aggressive. Dr. Peterson in his interviews does what the "Planet of the Humans" film does; it takes the science and uses it to educate the misplaced ideology.

Like I mentioned in my previous post, the UB is the gateway to the newfound Jesus gospel and brotherhood/sisterhood of mankind. I don't think we can exclude those people who will vote for this so called "lunatic" from our brotherhood if we expect it to be successful. This division is not being done by our president, it has been in the works long before he came on the scene, it pervades our educational and entertainment constructs and has been doing so for decades on end. Yet, what did Jesus say, "Fear Not" and for good reason because all things work for good. Our planetary life here on Urantia is not small specks of good upon a black background of evil, it's a white background of good with small specks of evil we have to deal with that makes us stronger as we grow in grace and in GOD!

With Love,
Paul


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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xobeht wrote:

To comment on the above:
Well, with all the issues of our current leader he is supported mostly by the Religious right leaning citizens. These are the very same people who are the scaffolding upon which the new UB gospel of Jesus aka; the brother/sisterhood of mankind will be built. What I see in the media in the last 40 years or more is a gradual demonization of America Christianity in general along with the white American male (especially the baby-boomer).


Paul,
Can you be more specific as to whom exactly you are referring to when you use the term "Religious right leaning citizens". By what characteristics do you identify them? How do you recognize one who is "religious right leaning" as opposed to .... religious left leaning? I guess? Or non-religious leaning of either persuasion? The Urantia Book sheds a lot of light on this question.


Quote:
103:1.1 (1129.8) The unity of religious experience among a social or racial group derives from the identical nature of the God fragment indwelling the individual. It is this divine in man that gives origin to his unselfish interest in the welfare of other men. But since personality is unique—no two mortals being alike—it inevitably follows that no two human beings can similarly interpret the leadings and urges of the spirit of divinity which lives within their minds. A group of mortals can experience spiritual unity, but they can never attain philosophic uniformity. And this diversity of the interpretation of religious thought and experience is shown by the fact that twentieth-century theologians and philosophers have formulated upward of five hundred different definitions of religion. In reality, every human being defines religion in the terms of his own experiential interpretation of the divine impulses emanating from the God spirit that indwells him, and therefore must such an interpretation be unique and wholly different from the religious philosophy of all other human beings.


When groups of individuals align under a label of any type, be it "atheists", "fundamentalists", "religious right", "Christians", they are doing it purely for political and social purposes. It has nothing to do with the individuals' unique and personal relationship with God. Therefore, saying that "the Religious right are the very same people who are the scaffolding upon which the new UB gospel of Jesus aka; the brother/sisterhood of mankind will be built," is not correct, according to the Urantia Book.

Just to give one example. The political/social group who label themselves "Religious right" are the same ones who loudly proclaim and attempt to enforce that women should not be allowed choice. Yet, we know from the Urantia Book that free will is sovereign. Even God will not take away a person's will to choose what is best for him or herself.


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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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Yes but encouraging women in a desperate situation to get an abortion, is not the same thing as "allowing a woman to choose".


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Yes but encouraging women in a desperate situation to get an abortion, is not the same thing as "allowing a woman to choose".


Who "encourages" abortion Enno? Please share any supporting evidence for such an irrational claim. Does anti-discrimination legislation "encourage" people to choose to be gay? Or black? Just weird... :roll:


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Do "Stand your ground" laws encourage folks to commit murder? Even if that were true (and I'm not saying it is), individuals are ALWAYS held accountable for their own choices. If we allow ourselves to be 'encouraged' by others to make a wrong choice, that is still our choice and every one of us must own our choices. Have you read the UB, Enno?

By the way, it is often the same people who rally under the banner of Pro Life who are in favor of capital punishment and who vote for Stand your ground laws.


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The point here is the government should stay out of it. They should not be providing funds for organizations like Planned Parenthood to encourage abortion.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
The point here is the government should stay out of it. They should not be providing funds for organizations like Planned Parenthood to encourage abortion.


It is certainly your choice to feel that way. More power to ya. It has nothing to do with religion though.

Oh, look! PP also helps women GET pregnant. Huh!

The essential health care services Planned Parenthood provides: STD testing and treatment, birth control, well-woman exams, cancer screening and prevention, abortion, hormone therapy, infertility services, and general health care.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
The point here is the government should stay out of it. They should not be providing funds for organizations like Planned Parenthood to encourage abortion.


Planned Parenthood does not encourage abortion Enno. Like me they oppose the need for any abortion...so they offer poor girls birth control...to protect their freewill choices. They offer safe abortion options to save lives from illegal and unsafe choices. Good grief.

Talk about right wing rhetoric.


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue May 26, 2020 7:14 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

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