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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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rick warren wrote:
If there is a major retrogression on the cusp (precipitated by those many red flags the authors waved in our faces) then we can rebuild society, a better one, I pray/work for.


The warning is about the destruction of civilization, not its retrogression. Pleasure mania is a big problem, and as you specified earlier, education is part of it, as is disintegration of marriage and family institutions, where education has its beginnings.

(942.2) 84:8.1 The great threat against family life is the menacing rising tide of self-gratification, the modern pleasure mania. The prime incentive to marriage used to be economic; sex attraction was secondary. Marriage, founded on self-maintenance, led to self-perpetuation and concomitantly provided one of the most desirable forms of self-gratification. It is the only institution of human society which embraces all three of the great incentives for living.

(1220.3) 111:4.4 The inner and the outer worlds have a different set of values. Any civilization is in jeopardy when three quarters of its youth enter materialistic professions and devote themselves to the pursuit of the sensory activities of the outer world. Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology, eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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Maybe civilization/society matures and advances just the same way as human individuals mature. I look at my life, and I can identify entire years that my motivation had not entirely been happiness, not progressing in my own process of maturation. At a certain phase in my life, I had thought myself to be a very logical creature, inventing rules with my friends that we all should follow.

My mom who is a social worker reminds me that when a person, say an adolescent, "rebels" or fails to see the purpose of gaining wisdom, or fails to be motivated to become a self-directed individual, there is such retrogression which may occur. If you try to build off the superficial legislations, and accomodate the great preponderance of every existing legislation, whether personal or unanymously approved by small groups of individuals, then you can plainly see that there are too many demands placed upon government.

What I am saying is that to understand the mores and laws that currently exist in society is good, but I personally prefer a minimal set of rules for men to follow, as in the seven commandments. There are so many laws that a judge, must decide if citizens inforced properly. But when the judge loses his ability to grant a pardon, you see the social pressure lead people to say that it is better never to admit to others wherein you have been found guilty.

When you mention, Rick, the dangers of universal suffrage, let me say that opening the door for all ethnicities and both genders to vote in elections, is really a good thing. The standard of the franchise, can be based on wisdom. Is wisdom a self-evident quality? Definetly not. But certainly, there are certain individuals, whose opinions I trust more than others, an opinion may carry a certain "weight" or "influence". The more levity you offer to others in this sense, well even though you only have one vote in the district policy, and yet your actions and pleas can "convince" others to agree with you, whether you realise that or not. If you do the right thing, you can convince others experiencially. The only gift that a career politician even has is to convince citizens of the opposite: "how not to do something", how to prevent certain individual and group liberties that would be deemed dangerous to the planet or the community. But as a morontial progressor, I just feel that the House of Joseph was true, and Jesus continued his business as a contractor and builder, always repairing what is still useful.

The most life-giving laws describe how one should feel towards the Creator, and how one should approach loving/treating others. The true democracy of Urantia, is in the quality of the increasingly sovereign citizens' choices. One choice by one person can influence the entire course of social progress. But the quality of choices is usually measured by your individual forebearance and wisdom, and allowance for the greatest maximum civil liberties for all members of the civilization.

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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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katroofjebus wrote:
rick warren wrote:
If there is a major retrogression on the cusp (precipitated by those many red flags the authors waved in our faces) then we can rebuild society, a better one, I pray/work for.


The warning is about the destruction of civilization, not its retrogression. Pleasure mania is a big problem, and as you specified earlier, education is part of it, as is disintegration of marriage and family institutions, where education has its beginnings.

(942.2) 84:8.1 The great threat against family life is the menacing rising tide of self-gratification, the modern pleasure mania. The prime incentive to marriage used to be economic; sex attraction was secondary. Marriage, founded on self-maintenance, led to self-perpetuation and concomitantly provided one of the most desirable forms of self-gratification. It is the only institution of human society which embraces all three of the great incentives for living.

(1220.3) 111:4.4 The inner and the outer worlds have a different set of values. Any civilization is in jeopardy when three quarters of its youth enter materialistic professions and devote themselves to the pursuit of the sensory activities of the outer world. Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology, eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.


Neither quote says anything at all about "destruction" but certainly do appear to me to be warning about regression or retrogression or losses of forward momentum and costly delays, etc. There are many such warnings including materialism. But the UB also tells us that the worst of the age of materialism is over. Again...I think we are hearing someone's personal political opinions and prejudices and biases about USA issues that are being transferred to global issues of planetary civilization and many cultures. It is generalization and unreasoned and uninformed IMO.

Is the UB a doom and gloom warning? Some UB students manage to think so. I don't see how. There are risks, dangers, and warnings included to be sure. But some seem to be seeking those out for such an enthusiastic embrace, it is truly puzzling to me.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
What I am saying is that to understand the mores and laws that currently exist in society is good, but I personally prefer a minimal set of rules for men to follow, as in the seven commandments.


The Revelation tells us that the law is life itself. That's one law condensed to its very essence. As I see it, if one does anything to destroy, harm or jeopardize life, the law is trespassed. There is a need for civil laws as long as citizens are lacking self-control which distorts or perverts life.

(555:1)  48:6.33 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law. Falsehood is not a matter of narration technique but something premeditated as a perversion of truth. The creation of new pictures out of old facts, the restatement of parental life in the lives of offspring—these are the artistic triumphs of truth. The shadow of a hair's turning, premeditated for an untrue purpose, the slightest twisting or perversion of that which is principle—these constitute falseness. But the fetish of factualized truth, fossilized truth, the iron band of so-called unchanging truth, holds one blindly in a closed circle of cold fact. One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth.

In the advanced stages of light and life a planet doesn't really need civil laws because everyone has achieved a level of self-control. Apparently the need for civil laws is inversely proportional to the moral and spiritual status of its citizens.

(630.1) 55:5.4 War has become a matter of history, and there are no more armies or police forces. Government is gradually disappearing. Self-control is slowly rendering laws of human enactment obsolete. The extent of civil government and statutory regulation, in an intermediate state of advancing civilization, is in inverse proportion to the morality and spirituality of the citizenship.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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fanofVan wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
rick warren wrote:
If there is a major retrogression on the cusp (precipitated by those many red flags the authors waved in our faces) then we can rebuild society, a better one, I pray/work for.


The warning is about the destruction of civilization, not its retrogression. Pleasure mania is a big problem, and as you specified earlier, education is part of it, as is disintegration of marriage and family institutions, where education has its beginnings.

(942.2) 84:8.1 The great threat against family life is the menacing rising tide of self-gratification, the modern pleasure mania. The prime incentive to marriage used to be economic; sex attraction was secondary. Marriage, founded on self-maintenance, led to self-perpetuation and concomitantly provided one of the most desirable forms of self-gratification. It is the only institution of human society which embraces all three of the great incentives for living.

(1220.3) 111:4.4 The inner and the outer worlds have a different set of values. Any civilization is in jeopardy when three quarters of its youth enter materialistic professions and devote themselves to the pursuit of the sensory activities of the outer world. Civilization is in danger when youth neglect to interest themselves in ethics, sociology, eugenics, philosophy, the fine arts, religion, and cosmology.


Neither quote says anything at all about "destruction" but certainly do appear to me to be warning about regression or retrogression or losses of forward momentum and costly delays, etc. There are many such warnings including materialism. But the UB also tells us that the worst of the age of materialism is over. Again...I think we are hearing someone's personal political opinions and prejudices and biases about USA issues that are being transferred to global issues of planetary civilization and many cultures. It is generalization and unreasoned and uninformed IMO.

Is the UB a doom and gloom warning? Some UB students manage to think so. I don't see how. There are risks, dangers, and warnings included to be sure. But some seem to be seeking those out for such an enthusiastic embrace, it is truly puzzling to me.


Perhaps Bonita's assessments (political opinions) are too dire and her predictions of the death of civilization somewhat exaggerated. I think regression is a risk in every generation and happens to some degree in every generation while others of each generation pushes the chain of social evolution another inch up the hill of progress.

The UB teaches us how to gain objectivity and how to abandon the myopic subjectivity (bias and prejudice) that inflicts so many mortals, evidently even some UB students. It's called the "time unit" perspective. We cannot discern the present accurately without a perspective that includes the past, from long, long ago....and also the far distant future. The UB teaches us both of those in great detail to lessen such anxieties as so many feel...even here.

We are taught that the immature and impatient ones among us fail to see the present as it is connected to the past and future...the present only exists as a moment in the trajectory arc and momentum of time. If we do not perceive the arc and motion of the trajectory then we cannot accurately gauge or measure or even view the present.

The moment of now is like a single photo frame plucked from the middle of a movie which reveals something but not much without the story and context of all that comes before and after. Thus the importance, meaning, and value of Epochal Revelation. To reveal and clarify and explain.

195:6.1 (2076.6) Scientists have unintentionally precipitated mankind into a materialistic panic; they have started an unthinking run on the moral bank of the ages, but this bank of human experience has vast spiritual resources; it can stand the demands being made upon it. Only unthinking men become panicky about the spiritual assets of the human race. When the materialistic-secular panic is over, the religion of Jesus will not be found bankrupt. The spiritual bank of the kingdom of heaven will be paying out faith, hope, and moral security to all who draw upon it “in His name.” *

195:6.4 (2076.9) At the time of this writing the worst of the materialistic age is over; the day of a better understanding is already beginning to dawn. The higher minds of the scientific world are no longer wholly materialistic in their philosophy, but the rank and file of the people still lean in that direction as a result of former teachings. But this ageof physical realism is only a passing episode in man’s life on earth. Modern science has left true religion—the teachings of Jesus as translated in the lives of his believers—untouched. All science has done is to destroy the childlike illusions of the misinterpretations of life.


195:9.2 (2082.7) But paganized and socialized Christianity stands in need of new contact with the uncompromised teachings of Jesus; it languishes for lack of a new vision of the Master’s life on earth. A new and fuller revelation of the religion of Jesus is destined to conquer an empire of materialistic secularism and to overthrow a world sway of mechanistic naturalism. Urantia is now quivering on the very brink of one of its most amazing and enthralling epochs of social readjustment, moral quickening, and spiritual enlightenment.

195:9.3 (2082.8) The teachings of Jesus, even though greatly modified, survived the mystery cults of their birthtime, the ignorance and superstition of the dark ages, and are even now slowly triumphing over the materialism, mechanism, and secularism of the twentieth century. And such times of great testing and threatened defeat are always times of great revelation.

118:1.3 (1295.3) There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

118:1.6 (1295.6) Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

118:1.7 (1295.7) To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

118:1.8 (1295.8) The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.


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 Post subject: Re: DANGERS OF DEMOCRACY
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katroofjebus wrote:

(555:1)  48:6.33 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct.
In the advanced stages of light and life a planet doesn't really need civil laws because everyone has achieved a level of self-control. Apparently the need for civil laws is inversely proportional to the moral and spiritual status of its citizens.

(630.1) 55:5.4 The extent of civil government and statutory regulation, in an intermediate state of advancing civilization, is in inverse proportion to the morality and spirituality of the citizenship.


So if you need more laws to guide citizens, it will become even more unruly.

But can you explain more about this, as it relates to democracy? How can people act upon a law that is life itself? How does this occur? There are unspoken regulations, intrinsic to life itself, that one may abide by? People have the freedom to vote, and by virtue of voting, can decide to repeal existing laws?

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.

That's an interesting aspect of this topic Katro, SeaKelly. Have to admit I never quite grasped the concept of law being life. The authors define life another way too. Paraphrasing: Life is what happens between the self and its environment.

I want to hear more about law as life. But there's another aspect of democratic danger that popped up on the radar, another roadblock that involves democratic society with its vaunted free speech: Intolerance. It's becoming epidemic in places. The Melchizedek author shows us the way out of and away from it:

...But no state can attain ideal levels of functioning until every form of intolerance is mastered; it is everlastingly inimical to human progress. And intolerance is best combated by the co-ordination of science, commerce, play, and religion.... 71:3.2 (803.2)

Quote source, much more: https://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-st ... te#U71_3_2

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
But can you explain more about this, as it relates to democracy? How can people act upon a law that is life itself? How does this occur? There are unspoken regulations, intrinsic to life itself, that one may abide by? People have the freedom to vote, and by virtue of voting, can decide to repeal existing laws?


Evil is a transgression of life and life is a sacred expression of truth, beauty and goodness. There is no law that can be enforced by man that will produce any of those things. They are all values recognized by the soul of man. Democracy is simply a form of government which allows for the freedom of every soul to discover these values and embrace them as part of life itself, which is the law. No law can force a man to do this but it can provide the freedom to do so.

(803.9) 71:3.9 A moral society should aim to preserve the self-respect of its citizenry and afford every normal individual adequate opportunity for self-realization. Such a plan of social achievement would yield a cultural society of the highest order. Social evolution should be encouraged by governmental supervision which exercises a minimum of regulative control. That state is best which co-ordinates most while governing least.


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rick warren wrote:
But there's another aspect of democratic danger that popped up on the radar, another roadblock that involves democratic society with its vaunted free speech: Intolerance. It's becoming epidemic in places. The Melchizedek author shows us the way out of and away from it:

...But no state can attain ideal levels of functioning until every form of intolerance is mastered; it is everlastingly inimical to human progress. And intolerance is best combated by the co-ordination of science, commerce, play, and religion.... 71:3.2 (803.2)


Freedom of speech is also listed as step number four in the evolution of representative government,

(802.7) 71:2.13 4. Freedom of speech. Representative government is unthinkable without freedom of all forms of expression for human aspirations and opinions.

I agree that our society is currently facing a massive problem with this step and I think it has to do with the insecurity and uncertainty that comes from immature beliefs. Intolerant expression is a deflection away from these doubts and fears. I think the solution has to do with returning society to God-centered values which would provide that certainty. Our secular society is reaping what it sowed when it turned the kingdom of God into the kingdom of good.

(1641.4) 146:3.2 The apostles were a bit disconcerted by the open manner of Jesus’ assent to many of the Greek’s propositions, but Jesus afterward privately said to them: “My children, marvel not that I was tolerant of the Greek’s philosophy. True and genuine inward certainty does not in the least fear outward analysis, nor does truth resent honest criticism. You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one’s belief. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor’s attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals.”

(2081.6) 195:8.6 Secularism can never bring peace to mankind. Nothing can take the place of God in human society. But mark you well! do not be quick to surrender the beneficent gains of the secular revolt from ecclesiastical totalitarianism. Western civilization today enjoys many liberties and satisfactions as a result of the secular revolt. The great mistake of secularism was this: In revolting against the almost total control of life by religious authority, and after attaining the liberation from such ecclesiastical tyranny, the secularists went on to institute a revolt against God himself, sometimes tacitly and sometimes openly.


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555:1)  48:6.33 Law is life itself and not the rules of its conduct. Evil is a transgression of law, not a violation of the rules of conduct pertaining to life, which is the law.....

I think perhaps life itself has much to do with true liberty and freewill alignments with reality which results in pure motive but not complex or extensive rules of conduct. Evil then is derived by impure motive, self interest. Self importance violates life and the law of life as it is always manifested by false liberty....the evil abuse of freewill.

Whereas immaturity and inexperience and lack of wisdom will often lead to less than ideal conduct or perfect choices, nonetheless the pure motive and intent makes all such errors merely measures of conduct. For tadpoles and all ascenders, it is motive that is purified and perfected first by spiritization. Wisdom is a function of experience.

Life that is bestowed with mind and personality also and always exercises the Divine gift of free will. I pointed out in the sovereignty discussion that all celestial sovereignty is upheld and maintained by the voluntary loyalties of personal and individual sovereignty of all populations.

Michael did not impose his own will or power on the rebels until all choices were made first...and then acted to express his personal loyalty to his sovereign's will to serve the greatest good for the greatest number but not to serve his own self interest. Freewill personal sovereignty when expressing true liberty with experiential maturity and wisdom rewuires no codes of conduct. Behaviors are predictably noble and based on golden rule ideals and motives.

Or so I understand. 8)


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Finally, I state that the supervisory relationship that you describe is better encompassed by the relationships as expressed in the human nuclear families. This is said to be one of the levels of sovereignty, on our planet Urantia, actually. The other is said to be the peaceful lasting mankind government. Do you understand the actual family relationships, i.e. the Ancients of Days & Creator Sons, Immanuel and the Divine Minister of Salvington, that exist within the universal governance of life in the grand universe? Do you think that one can serve in a supervisory capacity of the community, as in a brother teaching his younger siblings the rites of passage, in the stability and maintenance of a healthy household?

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Yes Stephen I agree. But the reason the family is the guiding model and example for primitives and near primitives like us is the fact of its representation of the larger celestial family and the future brotherhood of humanity. The "family" gets bigger and bigger as humanity advances and gains spirituality.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Finally, I state that the supervisory relationship that you describe is better encompassed by the relationships as expressed in the human nuclear families. This is said to be one of the levels of sovereignty, on our planet Urantia, actually. The other is said to be the peaceful lasting mankind government.


It is true that the family is the very foundation of civilization and integral to its survival.

(765.5) 68:2.8 Almost everything of lasting value in civilization has its roots in the family. The family was the first successful peace group, the man and woman learning how to adjust their antagonisms while at the same time teaching the pursuits of peace to their children.


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