Urantia Book Forum

Urantia Book Discussion Board : Study Group
It is currently Fri Dec 06, 2019 11:39 pm +0000

View unanswered posts | View active topics


Board index » Main » Questions & Answers

All times are UTC - 7 hours




Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  Page 7 of 9
  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next
  Previous topic | Next topic 
Author Message
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
Primitive worship is not true? Then it is false?

Or merely less than and prior to?

As to the location and ministry of the Adjuster (not in the soul as claimed by kat):

110:1.1 (1203.3) Adjusters should not be thought of as living in the material brains of human beings. They are not organic parts of the physical creatures of the realms. The Thought Adjuster may more properly be envisaged as indwelling the mortal mind of man rather than as existing within the confines of a single physical organ. And indirectly and unrecognized the Adjuster is constantly communicating with the human subject, especially during those sublime experiences of the worshipful contact of mind with spirit in the superconsciousness.

110:1.5 (1204.3) The Adjuster remains with you in all disaster and through every sickness which does not wholly destroy the mentality. But how unkind knowingly to defile or otherwise deliberately to pollute the physical body, which must serve as the earthly tabernacle of this marvelous gift from God. All physical poisons greatly retard the efforts of the Adjuster to exalt the material mind, while the mental poisons of fear, anger, envy, jealousy, suspicion, and intolerance likewise tremendously interfere with the spiritual progress of the evolving soul.

110:2.1 (1204.5) When Thought Adjusters indwell human minds...

110:2.4 (1205.2) Adjusters work in the spheres of the higher levels of the human mind, unceasingly seeking to produce morontia duplicates of every concept of the mortal intellect. There are, therefore, two realities which impinge upon, and are centered in, the human mind circuits: one, a mortal self evolved from the original plans of the Life Carriers, the other, an immortal entity from the high spheres of Divinington, an indwelling gift from God. But the mortal self is also a personal self; it has personality.

108:6.2 (1193.1) No matter what the previous status of the inhabitants of a world, subsequent to the bestowal of a divine Son and after the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth upon all humans, the Adjusters flock to such a world to indwell the minds of all normal will creatures. Following the completion of the mission of a Paradise bestowal Son, these Monitors truly become the “kingdom of heaven within you.” Through the bestowal of the divine gifts the Father makes the closest possible approach to sin and evil, for it is literally true that the Adjuster must coexist in the mortal mind even in the very midst of human unrighteousness. The indwelling Adjusters are particularly tormented by those thoughts which are purely sordid and selfish; they are distressed by irreverence for that which is beautiful and divine, and they are virtually thwarted in their work by many of man’s foolish animal fears and childish anxieties.

Kat, I hope you can now see how wrong you are and have been in your over confident declarations here as to the residence of the TA...and good many other things as well. The issues raised here as to the origin and paternity of the soul and the beginnings of the ministry of the Holy Spirit and the encircuitment of mind to all 7 adjutants with the endowment of personality and the experience in children and primitives of evolutionary religion and the connection to God by the personality circuit alone are not satisfied by your opinions no matter your confidence in your declarations.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Jun 15, 2019 5:41 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
(1110.6) 101:5.3 1. Evolutionary religion. The experience of primitive worship, the religion which is a mind derivative.

I think the experience of primitive worship comes from the sixth adjutant and manifests itself initially as fear. Adjutant nature fear together with primitive ignorance gave birth to primitive religion. With the influence of wisdom (seventh adjutant) the evolution of religion began and took on many forms. Reference:

(950.1) 86:0.1 THE evolution of religion from the preceding and primitive worship urge is not dependent on revelation. The normal functioning of the human mind under the directive influence of the sixth and seventh mind-adjutants of universal spirit bestowal is wholly sufficient to insure such development.

I think we can safely say that evolutionary religion is a human adjutant experience and over the millennia primitive worship has covered the entire gamut including the worship of: fire, lightning, animals, plants, trees, celestial bodies, stones, hills, mountains, rivers, snakes, weather, the sun and everything else imaginable including man himself. References:

(944.4) 85:0.4 At one time or another mortal man has worshiped everything on the face of the earth, including himself. He has also worshiped about everything imaginable in the sky and beneath the surface of the earth. Primitive man feared all manifestations of power; he worshiped every natural phenomenon he could not comprehend. The observation of powerful natural forces, such as storms, floods, earthquakes, landslides, volcanoes, fire, heat, and cold, greatly impressed the expanding mind of man. The inexplicable things of life are still termed “acts of God” and “mysterious dispensations of Providence.”

(948.6) 85:7.1 Nature worship may seem to have arisen naturally and spontaneously in the minds of primitive men and women, and so it did; but there was operating all this time in these same primitive minds the sixth adjutant spirit, which had been bestowed upon these peoples as a directing influence of this phase of human evolution. And this spirit was constantly stimulating the worship urge of the human species, no matter how primitive its first manifestations might be. The spirit of worship gave definite origin to the human impulse to worship, notwithstanding that animal fear motivated the expression of worshipfulness, and that its early practice became centered upon objects of nature.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
Agreed...and the TA? Mortal mind ministry and not the soul, right?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
(1110.7) 101:5.4 2. Revealed religion. The universe attitude which is a spirit derivative; the assurance of, and belief in, the conservation of eternal realities, the survival of personality, and the eventual attainment of the cosmic Deity, whose purpose has made all this possible. It is a part of the plan of the universe that, sooner or later, evolutionary religion is destined to receive the spiritual expansion of revelation.

Evolutionary religion is a mind derivative and revealed religion is a spirit derivative. Spirit provides assurance of survival which is a capacity created by the Holy Spirit long before the arrival of the bestowal Sons or Thought Adjusters. Reference:

(1003.4) 92:0.4 3. The Holy Spirit--this is the initial supermind bestowal, and it unfailingly appears in all bona fide human personalities. This ministry to a worship-craving and wisdom-desiring mind creates the capacity to self-realize the postulate of human survival, both in theologic concept and as an actual and factual personality experience.

(1129.1) 103:0.1 All of man's truly religious reactions are sponsored by the early ministry of the adjutant of worship and are censored by the adjutant of wisdom. Man's first supermind endowment is that of personality encircuitment in the Holy Spirit of the Universe Creative Spirit; and long before either the bestowals of the divine Sons or the universal bestowal of the Adjusters, this influence functions to enlarge man's viewpoint of ethics, religion, and spirituality.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Sun Jan 22, 2012 11:16 pm +0000
Posts: 1122
Location: Nanticoke NY
Agon D. Onter wrote:
I see, above, that Bradly says he was NOT saying that. But I'd like to offer a different perspective. When I read that post of Bradly's I agreed with him that a suckling child is experiencing the very early glimmers of faith. The reason I say this is a baby has complete trust that her needs will be met by her loving parent. When she cries or roots for the breast, nourishment is soon forthcoming. The baby has, as Bradly put it, a "connection" with the parent and this connection is founded on trust and belief (reassurance) that the parent loves and cares for the needs of the child. To me, that is a very early, undeveloped form of faith. Faith and connection to the earthly parent, to be sure. But to a baby, their earthly caregivers are God, in a way. Their mind is too undeveloped to conceive of anything outside that physical and emotional connection.


But is it the faith of the infant, or really the faith of the mother, that is edified through her relationship with another being.

katroofjebus wrote:
The sixth adjutant initially experienced in human mind as fear.

That is very interesting, considering how the Buddhists approach fear, in terms of a total embrace of the human experience. Are you saying that it is universal for children to experience fear, that it could be an indication of the greater expansion of mind capacity for a person, but what do you actually teach about this adjustment from fear into an embrace of the rational possibilities that man is capable of doing?

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
katroofjebus wrote:
Are you saying that it is universal for children to experience fear, that it could be an indication of the greater expansion of mind capacity for a person, but what do you actually teach about this adjustment from fear into an embrace of the rational possibilities that man is capable of doing?


All humans of all ages experience fear, and also anxiety. What matters is how a person reacts to fear. A mature person can examine and analyze its own fears. A child may not have developed the skills to do that and therefore relies on more mature people for assistance in developing courage to face them and the wisdom to see them from a new perspective. Wisdom grows. We may be born connected to the spirit of wisdom, but it needs time to evolve in function.

It is written that the hand that rocks the cradle fraternizes with destiny. The Revelation is referring to mothers with that adage, but fathers contribute mightily as well. The key to adjusting from fear to trust is love. The child learns to fear less and trust more initially from its tutors, hopefully both of its loving parents. After the birth of the soul, the child has additional parents, divine parents to learn from and find assurance in. The goal of parenting a child with a soul is actually more of a challenge to the earth parents because the tutoring demands that the adults have a mature relationship with their own souls in order to set an example by producing the spiritual fruit of that relationship.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
katroofjebus wrote:
katroofjebus wrote:
Are you saying that it is universal for children to experience fear, that it could be an indication of the greater expansion of mind capacity for a person, but what do you actually teach about this adjustment from fear into an embrace of the rational possibilities that man is capable of doing?


All humans of all ages experience fear, and also anxiety. What matters is how a person reacts to fear. A mature person can examine and analyze its own fears. A child may not have developed the skills to do that and therefore relies on more mature people for assistance in developing courage to face them and the wisdom to see them from a new perspective. Wisdom grows. We may be born connected to the spirit of wisdom, but it needs time to evolve in function.

It is written that the hand that rocks the cradle fraternizes with destiny. The Revelation is referring to mothers with that adage, but fathers contribute mightily as well. The key to adjusting from fear to trust is love. The child learns to fear less and trust more initially from its tutors, hopefully both of its loving parents. After the birth of the soul, the child has additional parents, divine parents to learn from and find assurance in. The goal of parenting a child with a soul is actually more of a challenge to the earth parents because the tutoring demands that the adults have a mature relationship with their own souls in order to set an example by producing the spiritual fruit of that relationship.


Thank you kat for getting us back on the topic and for such a wonderful picture of a reality pattern that I think sets the stage and table for the remarkable transformation of both individuals and society, generation after generation.

How do worlds filled with barbarians and primitives grope their way forward into progress and through transformations of evolutionary transition?? Despite what some might teach in school and science and history, it is not accident. Every step forward in evolution is the methodical result of planning and the influences of forces and beings acting within human mind and among human kind as living examples and teachers and counselors. The story of our world told in Part III outlines one such story. Every material and inhabited planet, and there are or will be 7 trillion of them, has a unique story of its own. The story of the birth of first people by evolutionary forces managed by the Life Carriers and Adjutant spirits which resulted in a population of mortals with eternal potential endowed by spirit and mind ministries that nurtured and guided the development of culture and civilization and social progress that results in all these worlds to eventually become settled in Light and Life.

How do they do that? That which Kat describes above is a critical function that repeats itself child by child and generation after generation and that nurturing relationship and the family and the home that results is the very foundation of society and of evolutionary progress. Family is everything, It is the center of everything and the foundation of everything and the essential pattern of universe and eternal realities for every mortal being. The family determines and defines society itself and is the measure of progress achieved and progress still to go for every generation. That which strengthens family moves the world forward into its future and that which weakens families is an obstacle to our destiny.

So how has the family unit delivered progress?

It began/begins with the hearth. The transition of the fire pit in the cave or traveling huts of nomads and hunter/gatherers to the permanent hearth in the home of the agriculturalist and the trader and the crafts/trades people who evolved by the growing stability of the home and the expanded role of the mother in the social structure progress. The story of our mothers is an illustration of their indispensable role in social progress and transition. And the UB tells their amazing story in ways which challenge many false and male centric academic assumptions I think.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:34 pm +0000
Posts: 21
katroofjebus wrote:
Said Jesus:
(1950.3) 180:5.8 But the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule consists in the consciousness of the spirit of the truth of the enduring and living reality of such a divine declaration. The true cosmic meaning of this rule of universal relationship is revealed only in its spiritual realization, in the interpretation of the law of conduct by the spirit of the Son to the spirit of the Father that indwells the soul of mortal man. And when such spirit-led mortals realize the true meaning of this golden rule, they are filled to overflowing with the assurance of citizenship in a friendly universe, and their ideals of spirit reality are satisfied only when they love their fellows as Jesus loved us all, and that is the reality of the realization of the love of God.

You have not completely and accurately interpreted the quote. Consider the following:

  • There are actually as stated two spirits at work, not just the one you highlighted, for the achievement of "the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule".
  • How each of the spirits function individually and collectively?
  • You do not come across as being sufficiently acquainted with the concept of spirit-leading ("spirit-led", also explicitly stated therein). It is a must-have for any true religionist.

Try again? Needless to say, you have made great progress.

_________________
intellectual grasp - spiritual insight - personality outreach
   ─────────────────────
explore - share - verify
   ─────────────────────
Be you perfecting, even as I am perfecting.


Last edited by supermath on Mon Jun 17, 2019 5:36 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
The pattern for the human family is Divine in origin and civilization and social progress are its result:

33:3.6 After this pledge of subordination by the Creative Mother Spirit, Michael of Nebadon nobly acknowledged his eternal dependence on his Spirit companion, constituting the Spirit coruler of his universe domains and requiring all their creatures to pledge themselves in loyalty to the Spirit as they had to the Son; and there issued and went forth the final “Proclamation of Equality.” Though he was the sovereign of this local universe, the Son published to the worlds the fact of the Spirit's equality with him in all endowments of personality and attributes of divine character. And this becomes the transcendent pattern for the family organization and government of even the lowly creatures of the worlds of space. This is, in deed and in truth, the high ideal of the family and the human institution of voluntary marriage.

33:3.7 The Son and the Spirit now preside over the universe much as a father and mother watch over, and minister to, their family of sons and daughters. It is not altogether out of place to refer to the Universe Spirit as the creative companion of the Creator Son and to regard the creatures of the realms as their sons and daughters—a grand and glorious family but one of untold responsibilities and endless watchcare.

33:3.8 The Son initiates the creation of certain of the universe children, while the Spirit is solely responsible for bringing into existence the numerous orders of spirit personalities who minister and serve under the direction and guidance of this selfsame Mother Spirit. In the creation of other types of universe personalities, both the Son and the Spirit function together, and in no creative act does the one do aught without the counsel and approval of the other.

52:2.8 During this age agriculture makes its appearance. The growth of the family idea is incompatible with the roving and unsettled life of the hunter. Gradually the practices of settled habitations and the cultivation of the soil become established. The domestication of animals and the development of home arts proceed apace. Upon reaching the apex of biologic evolution, a high level of civilization has been attained, but there is little development of a mechanical order; invention is the characteristic of the succeeding age.

66:7.4 The definite order of family life and the living of one family together in one residence of comparatively settled location date from these times of Dalamatia and were chiefly due to the example and teachings of the one hundred and their pupils. The home as a social unit never became a success until the supermen and superwomen of Dalamatia led mankind to love and plan for their grandchildren and their grandchildren's children. Savage man loves his child, but civilized man loves also his grandchild.

66:7.5 The Prince's staff lived together as fathers and mothers. True, they had no children of their own, but the fifty pattern homes of Dalamatia never sheltered less than five hundred adopted little ones assembled from the superior families of the Andonic and Sangik races; many of these children were orphans. They were favored with the discipline and training of these superparents; and then, after three years in the schools of the Prince (they entered from thirteen to fifteen), they were eligible for marriage and ready to receive their commissions as emissaries of the Prince to the needy tribes of their respective races.

68:2.8 Almost everything of lasting value in civilization has its roots in the family. The family was the first successful peace group, the man and woman learning how to adjust their antagonisms while at the same time teaching the pursuits of peace to their children.

68:2.9 The function of marriage in evolution is the insurance of race survival, not merely the realization of personal happiness; self-maintenance and self-perpetuation are the real objects of the home. Self-gratification is incidental and not essential except as an incentive insuring sex association. Nature demands survival, but the arts of civilization continue to increase the pleasures of marriage and the satisfactions of family life.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
supermath wrote:
You have not completely and accurately interpreted the quote.


Do you like this one better? Remember that the mortal mind includes the soul.

(1176.2) 107:0.2 The Adjusters are the actuality of the Father's love incarnate in the souls of men; they are the veritable promise of man's eternal career imprisoned within the mortal mind; they are the essence of man's perfected finaliter personality, which he can foretaste in time as he progressively masters the divine technique of achieving the living of the Father's will, step by step, through the ascension of universe upon universe until he actually attains the divine presence of his Paradise Father.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline
User avatar

Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:34 pm +0000
Posts: 21
katroofjebus wrote:
supermath wrote:
You have not completely and accurately interpreted the quote.


Do you like this one better? Remember that the mortal mind includes the soul.

(1176.2) 107:0.2 The Adjusters are the actuality of the Father's love incarnate in the souls of men; they are the veritable promise of man's eternal career imprisoned within the mortal mind; they are the essence of man's perfected finaliter personality, which he can foretaste in time as he progressively masters the divine technique of achieving the living of the Father's will, step by step, through the ascension of universe upon universe until he actually attains the divine presence of his Paradise Father.

The way you deflected the question confirms my initial assessment that you only got part of the quote while missed the rest of it. Perhaps you overlooked part of my question too?

The way you understood the quote and the new one you cited was still quite an achievement, and I am hopeful that you will see through the whole block of text soon enough. You are supposed to learn everything in sufficiently detail, as suggested in:
Quote:
31:3.7 (348.4) 3. The glorified mortals of the Paradise Corps of Finality are ascendant beings in possession of experiential knowledge of every step of the actuality and philosophy of the fullest possible life of intelligent existence, while during the ages of this ascent from the lowest material worlds to the spiritual heights of Paradise, these surviving creatures have been trained to the limits of their capacity respecting every detail of every divine principle of the just and efficient, as well as merciful and patient, administration of all the universal creation of time and space.

What is at stake is how to fully and correctly interpret the golden rule in particular, but by extension the whole revelation in general, and apply it to practice. It is a key component of our supposed learning which has not received adequate attention so far.

In the same vein, please also consider what "the great light", which makes "the least ... indeed greater than John", is precisely referred to in the following quote:
Quote:
136:0.1 (1509.1) [...] Though Jesus spoke of John as the greatest of the prophets of the old order, he also said that the least of those who saw the great light of the new way and entered thereby into the kingdom of heaven was indeed greater than John.

_________________
intellectual grasp - spiritual insight - personality outreach
   ─────────────────────
explore - share - verify
   ─────────────────────
Be you perfecting, even as I am perfecting.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
Perhaps you two would be polite enough to have a private conversation elsewhere....or start a new topic???? The golden rule or the new light would make very interesting topics.

Thank you.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
Perhaps you two would be polite enough to have a private conversation elsewhere....or start a new topic????


The question is whether or not the Thought Adjuster indwells the soul. The references provided support that concept. The Adjusters are incarnate in the souls of men. The Adjusters are fragments of God, and God is Love. The Father's Love incarnates within the soul and the soul is within the mortal mind.

Soul indwelling is essential to understanding the concept of duality within the mortal mind, the strain caused by two masters, the ego and the Spirit. It is this very struggle that gives birth to evolutionary religion and religious experience, the topic at hand.

So NO I will not make this a private conversation, you will NOT silence me, trivialize me or demean me. I would appreciate it if you would immediately end your constant rude and offensive attacks directed at me and others throughout this forum. We're all very, very tired of it and it serves no spiritual purpose.
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Sun Mar 25, 2012 5:29 am +0000
Posts: 3954
katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Perhaps you two would be polite enough to have a private conversation elsewhere....or start a new topic????


The question is whether or not the Thought Adjuster indwells the soul. The references provided support that concept. The Adjusters are incarnate in the souls of men. The Adjusters are fragments of God, and God is Love. The Father's Love incarnates within the soul and the soul is within the mortal mind.

Soul indwelling is essential to understanding the concept of duality within the mortal mind, the strain caused by two masters, the ego and the Spirit. It is this very struggle that gives birth to evolutionary religion and religious experience, the topic at hand.

So NO I will not make this a private conversation, you will NOT silence me, trivialize me or demean me. I would appreciate it if you would immediately end your constant rude and offensive attacks directed at me and others throughout this forum. We're all very, very tired of it and it serves no spiritual purpose.


And now you speak for everyone? I attacked you? I thought I was rather polite.

It's like herding cats around here to make progress in a topic...and I appreciate your summary above and efforts to relate it to the topic...except now the topic is the model and template of family and its effects on the evolutionary religious experience in the individual and the progressive social effects which result.

Perhaps I was premature and cross eyed in my request and had not connected the dots yet...for example, regarding the golden rule, what's its source, social origin, and effects on early social progress among primitive people?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
PostPosted:  
Offline

Joined: Wed Feb 20, 2019 12:11 pm +0000
Posts: 932
fanofVan wrote:
I thought I was rather polite.


Booting people off of a question and answer topic because you fail to see the significance of the questions or answers, is not polite. It's rude and offensive. And even if I give you slack and accept that you don't recognize this as impolite, you have no right to demand for discussion that only you sanction. As I said before, if you don't want discussion and only want a monolithic exegesis of your own personal thoughts, then may I suggest you utilize the essay subform which is designed for such things.

fanofVan wrote:
regarding the golden rule, what's its source, social origin, and effects on early social progress among primitive people?


Why don't you tell us?
Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic This topic is locked, you cannot edit posts or make further replies.  Page 7 of 9
  [ 131 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1 ... 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9  Next

Board index » Main » Questions & Answers

All times are UTC - 7 hours


Who is online

Registered users: No registered users

You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Switch to mobile style
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group