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Thanks Agon, that makes sense...the paternal connections and relationships are patterns of embrace, emotion, dependence, trust, and faith which are and become transferrable to the God presence and Spirit Ministry later.

I'm a genius! Hahahaha. Thanks Sister! I am so glad right now for any understanding and contributions to the topic.

You shine.

Bradly. :D


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I came across this UB quote that sheds more light on this idea of the faith of a child.

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196:0.12 (2089.2) The faith of Jesus attained the purity of a child’s trust. His faith was so absolute and undoubting that it responded to the charm of the contact of fellow beings and to the wonders of the universe. His sense of dependence on the divine was so complete and so confident that it yielded the joy and the assurance of absolute personal security. There was no hesitating pretense in his religious experience. In this giant intellect of the full-grown man the faith of the child reigned supreme in all matters relating to the religious consciousness. It is not strange that he once said, “Except you become as a little child, you shall not enter the kingdom.” Notwithstanding that Jesus’ faith was childlike, it was in no sense childish.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:

I see, above, that Bradly says he was NOT saying that. But I'd like to offer a different perspective. When I read that post of Bradly's I agreed with him that a suckling child is experiencing the very early glimmers of faith. The reason I say this is a baby has complete trust that her needs will be met by her loving parent. When she cries or roots for the breast, nourishment is soon forthcoming. The baby has, as Bradly put it, a "connection" with the parent and this connection is founded on trust and belief (reassurance) that the parent loves and cares for the needs of the child. To me, that is a very early, undeveloped form of faith. Faith and connection to the earthly parent, to be sure. But to a baby, their earthly caregivers are God, in a way. Their mind is too undeveloped to conceive of anything outside that physical and emotional connection.


Yes of course, a normal child is born trusting and the relationship this trust forms with a loving parent is the foundation for the Father-son relationship which is eventually realized as part of soul growth. Jesus came here to reveal the Father-son relationship and stressed the importance of fostering the same within the earth family.

But an infant's trust is not faith, it's trust. The easy trusting of a child is the very thing Jesus taught his disciples and apostles to adopt in order to be "born of the spirit" which then becomes a faith-trust since faith comes from the spirit.

Said Jesus: "And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one." (1732.5) 155:6.12

But children even younger than six can have faith because they have souls. The references to children's faith in the Revelation are not about infants but young children who are developing their faith-trust which can be easy for them if they have not learned to distrust by the actions of others. This is why Jesus made that statement about the millstone: "But whosoever causes one of these little ones to stumble, it would be better for him if a millstone were hanged about his neck and he were cast into the sea." (1761.2) 158:8.1.

As we have already established by my offering of many references on the topic, faith is a gift and it is not given at the birth of the body, but at the birth of the soul because it is necessary for the recognition of sonship, of being a faith-son. Sonship is also a gift to the soul because it is the soul that survives. Fortunately we humans acquire souls very early in life so these gifts help us tremendously during our formative years when the Thought Adjuster is called a Thought Changer. I presume the Thought Changer is able to do this because of an underlying trust in young minds which assists faith-trust. References:

(1610.2) 143:2.7 Your sonship is grounded in faith, and you are to remain unmoved by fear. Your joy is born of trust in the divine word, and you shall not therefore be led to doubt the reality of the Father's love and mercy. It is the very goodness of God that leads men into true and genuine repentance. Your secret of the mastery of self is bound up with your faith in the indwelling spirit, which ever works by love. Even this saving faith you have not of yourselves; it also is the gift of God. And if you are the children of this living faith, you are no longer the bondslaves of self but rather the triumphant masters of yourselves, the liberated sons of God.

(1537.4) 137:8.17 “John came preaching repentance to prepare you for the kingdom; now have I come proclaiming faith, the gift of God, as the price of entrance into the kingdom of heaven. If you would but believe that my Father loves you with an infinite love, then you are in the kingdom of God.”

(1621.2) 144:4.3 In all praying, remember that sonship is a gift. No child has aught to do with earning the status of son or daughter. The earth child comes into being by the will of its parents. Even so, the child of God comes into grace and the new life of the spirit by the will of the Father in heaven. Therefore must the kingdom of heaven — divine sonship — be received as by a little child. You earn righteousness — progressive character development — but you receive sonship by grace and through faith.

(1177.1) 107:0.7 On the evolutionary worlds, will creatures traverse three general developmental stages of being: From the arrival of the Adjuster to comparative full growth, about twenty years of age on Urantia, the Monitors are sometimes designated Thought Changers. From this time to the attainment of the age of discretion, about forty years, the Mystery Monitors are called Thought Adjusters. From the attainment of discretion to deliverance from the flesh, they are often referred to as Thought Controllers. These three phases of mortal life have no connection with the three stages of Adjuster progress in mind duplication and soul evolution.


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" ... faith is a gift and it is not given at the birth of the body, but at the birth of the soul ..."

Perhaps the difference is that you see faith as binary (either on or off) and I see it as a spectrum. It's perfectly fine for us to have different interpretations/ different views of these concepts. :smile:


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Please do not presume agreement kat! Faith and religious experience begins with personality and the first glimmer of response to any and all Spirit presence and ministry. You have not proven anything yet. Do not put words into the mouths of orhers or presume you understand or explain the mysteries of faith and trust.


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I am thinking there is a symbiotic connection between the parent and child at the morontial level that the celestial authors are conveying to us indirectly. A mother has an umbilical cord connected or "encircuited" (to use UB nomenclature,) to the fetus to nourish it while it has no means of surviving on its own. I believe that this is the premise upon which the celestials build the narrative of the probationary nursery world; the parent is in the stead of a Though Adjuster. Basically, in lieu of an umbilical cord the Adjuster-less infant is provided a morontial link to the parent until he or she receives a TA; the parent's soul helps keep that soulless child alive in the afterlife.

And just like once the fetus is able to live on its own, the cord is severed, so too once the salvaged child receives a TA, it no longer needs the parent as it is able to grow its own soul. It now can move on to the survival or mansion spheres where you must have a soul to live on. Further, this also suggests to me that the nursery world is modeled on a mother's womb, a kind of "internal" dimension in the mansion world where soulless humans are afforded more time to receive a TA and grow a soul.

I think this opens up a couple can of worms for readers. Can an adult fail to grow a soul during their life in the flesh? I think so. And, can an adult be considered "child" or "youth" in the eyes of the universe? I definitely think so! I conclude there are grown adults with the status of "child" on the nursery world.

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Agon D. Onter wrote:
" ... faith is a gift and it is not given at the birth of the body, but at the birth of the soul ..."

Perhaps the difference is that you see faith as binary (either on or off) and I see it as a spectrum. It's perfectly fine for us to have different interpretations/ different views of these concepts. :smile:


No of course. I think binary thinking is purely human, the good/bad, theory of life fostered by the early organized religions and their teachers (Zoroaster).

(1009.6) 92:5.11 Zoroaster, while much affected by the prevalent concept of dual spiritism, the good and the bad, at the same time definitely exalted the idea of one eternal Deity and of the ultimate victory of light over darkness.

Higher thinking requires trifold thinking at the minimum since duality naturally begets triunity, the ancestor of all things.

(1157.4) 105:4.3 It has been sometime stated that unity begets duality, that duality begets triunity, and that triunity is the eternal ancestor of all things.

I agree there is a continuum of faith because faith grows; it is alive. That is not the issue. The issue is when it appears within the psyche. As we all have agreed, trust naturally appears in the psyche, followed by the gift of faith and sonship when the psyche discovers its Creator (who lives in the soul).

Personality, on the other hand, is a pattern that unifies all its constituent parts which would include both the adjutant psyche and soul psyche, our dual mind and dual nature, or character. The adjutant psyche has trust and the soul psyche has faith which the personality works to unifiy as faith-trust. Mind too is unity, all mind ministries conspire to unify the psyche toward God-consciousness which has as its counterpart son-consciousness.

(1593.5) 141:7.4 The Master sought to impress upon all teachers of the gospel of the kingdom that their only business was to reveal God to the individual man as his Father — to lead this individual man to become son-conscious; then to present this same man to God as his faith son.

(9.1) 0:5.11  Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


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brooklyn_born wrote:
I think this opens up a couple can of worms for readers. Can an adult fail to grow a soul during their life in the flesh? I think so. And, can an adult be considered "child" or "youth" in the eyes of the universe? I definitely think so! I conclude there are grown adults with the status of "child" on the nursery world.


I think that the Revelation focuses mainly on people with "normal" minds. Certainly there are individuals born into this world with severe mental deficits that might not be able to acquire a soul through no fault of their own. Some of these individuals live well into adulthood. I do think many are salvageable, either as attached to their parents or in their own right as personalities. We aren't given much detail on this since the Revelation is geared to people who are able to read it, which I don't think is possible with a severely handicapped mind, at least in terms of comprehension.


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katroofjebus wrote:
brooklyn_born wrote:
I think this opens up a couple can of worms for readers. Can an adult fail to grow a soul during their life in the flesh? I think so. And, can an adult be considered "child" or "youth" in the eyes of the universe? I definitely think so! I conclude there are grown adults with the status of "child" on the nursery world.


I think that the Revelation focuses mainly on people with "normal" minds. Certainly there are individuals born into this world with severe mental deficits that might not be able to acquire a soul through no fault of their own. Some of these individuals live well into adulthood. I do think many are salvageable, either as attached to their parents or in their own right as personalities. We aren't given much detail on this since the Revelation is geared to people who are able to read it, which I don't think is possible with a severely handicapped mind, at least in terms of comprehension.



Agreed! I need to amend and clarify my previous statement. We do not grow souls while alive as if the soul is released. I spoke a bit recklessly. Actually in consort with TA we develop a soul which, during life of the flesh of its host, remains in embryonic state developing. Also, remember, the celestials employ human terms but do not necessarily expect us to interpret them literally as they qualify their usage of the same by stating they enlarged the definition or understanding of the terms.

I pose the question, what is a feeble and normal mind?

I think also this question deserves a separate topic thread. I will create one.

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katroofjebus wrote:
Are you saying that a suckling infant does so due to its faith? That an infant who responds to a parent's loving touch is having a religious experience? Would you mind explaining more about that?


If I can help here, to tell you that Emanuel Swedborg wrote volumes that explained how a child must at first be able to love himself and the world that he is born into, but that over time this love is adjusted to conform to the human individual's love of God, and that appreciation towards the universe, not just the world or family. Those basic needs from a material point of view are healthy patterns that require spiritualisation, psychological proving, and yes adjustment in order for such a development to occur. If you can see that Christ Michael did manifest into a human form, in the womb of Mary and the pattern of Mary and Joseph, and how all these needs are met, healthy patterns of life that if you didn't know anything better you could use to make such transitions, from lofe of self to love of God, love of the world to love of all creatures in the universe.

It is reasonable for me to think that, around the time that the Monument to Michael's Bestowal Creature Experiences made on Jerusem Spheres, Urantia was proceeding on course, such that what is called "the Enlightenment Era" in Europe, which came after, is truly a period where humanity was transitioning out of evolutionary religion and into Revelationary Religion. What do I mean, well, that the concepts that Martin Luther wrought in critizism of the Church, before the beginning of the Enlightenment Era, together with widespread literacy, meant that societies could convene to decide what moral values they thought represents the truth. The Enlightenment Era produced, in the next century the 19th, a vast array of new mechanical componentries. These were incorporated into a capitalist society, that gave select opportunities for producers to lay claim to production rights.

IBM, and I grew up in Endicott NY the home of Thomas Watson, so I hear many stories about this, was once a company that led the field of new designs of implementation, based on the total collective knowledge of patent rights, what industrial processes fit with what patents, et cetera. And what I see in the current age is a widespread dissipation, a cultural disconnect, between the modern corporate IBM, and the original IBM of Thomas Watson. I read the Urantia Book, and often reminded of the dangers of a materialist technocracy. Well my fear is based on the idea that "AI", is something merely intellectual, not real, and that the engineers at IBM have lost the real understanding of mechanical componentry. The processes is to know how to control the exchange of information, how to deliver and shape and decode this electrical information properly. Evolutionary religion is being lost to our world, and like the Carousels of the Triple Cities, people claim that there is no one with knowledge of how to replace a broken part, and so one of the carousels is nearing its last run. With so much obsession with software coding, a mere intellectual pursuit, may seem valuable to some but what does it mean to a nation if we cannot keep our carousels playing, because we do not have factories to tool a specific component.

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katroofjebus wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
" ... faith is a gift and it is not given at the birth of the body, but at the birth of the soul ..."

Perhaps the difference is that you see faith as binary (either on or off) and I see it as a spectrum. It's perfectly fine for us to have different interpretations/ different views of these concepts. :smile:


No of course. I think binary thinking is purely human, the good/bad, theory of life fostered by the early organized religions and their teachers (Zoroaster).

(1009.6) 92:5.11 Zoroaster, while much affected by the prevalent concept of dual spiritism, the good and the bad, at the same time definitely exalted the idea of one eternal Deity and of the ultimate victory of light over darkness.

Higher thinking requires trifold thinking at the minimum since duality naturally begets triunity, the ancestor of all things.

(1157.4) 105:4.3 It has been sometime stated that unity begets duality, that duality begets triunity, and that triunity is the eternal ancestor of all things.

I agree there is a continuum of faith because faith grows; it is alive. That is not the issue. The issue is when it appears within the psyche. As we all have agreed, trust naturally appears in the psyche, followed by the gift of faith and sonship when the psyche discovers its Creator (who lives in the soul).

Personality, on the other hand, is a pattern that unifies all its constituent parts which would include both the adjutant psyche and soul psyche, our dual mind and dual nature, or character. The adjutant psyche has trust and the soul psyche has faith which the personality works to unifiy as faith-trust. Mind too is unity, all mind ministries conspire to unify the psyche toward God-consciousness which has as its counterpart son-consciousness.

(1593.5) 141:7.4 The Master sought to impress upon all teachers of the gospel of the kingdom that their only business was to reveal God to the individual man as his Father — to lead this individual man to become son-conscious; then to present this same man to God as his faith son.

(9.1) 0:5.11  Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


I do not agree that the TA or Spirit abides in soul. They minister to mortal mind and the TA abides there. Indeed are often told how the material mind poses so many challenges and obstacles to the work of the TA IN MORTAL MIND, not the soul which is the repository of the TA and material mind's successful spiritual progress and related decisions in mortal mind.

And the spectrum and continuum of the faith experience begins prior to soul as primal evolutionary religious experience and does not await the TA and mortal mind's co-creation of soul. Personality alone is sufficient for the connection to God as posted text clearly states. Likewise is the mind sufficient to connect us to the source of mind.

We are connected to Deity and begin the personal religious experience long before soul is born....as very young children. It is "innate" and begins with the mortal mind connection to all 7 adjutants and our personality endowment and grows from this initial foundation.

Kat...quit presuming the agreement of others. You have not yet gained that nor does the text posted prove your claims.

And still off topic.....


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Said Jesus:
(1950.3) 180:5.8 But the highest realization and the truest interpretation of the golden rule consists in the consciousness of the spirit of the truth of the enduring and living reality of such a divine declaration. The true cosmic meaning of this rule of universal relationship is revealed only in its spiritual realization, in the interpretation of the law of conduct by the spirit of the Son to the spirit of the Father that indwells the soul of mortal man. And when such spirit-led mortals realize the true meaning of this golden rule, they are filled to overflowing with the assurance of citizenship in a friendly universe, and their ideals of spirit reality are satisfied only when they love their fellows as Jesus loved us all, and that is the reality of the realization of the love of God.


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We also know that the Thought Adjuster lives in the superconscious level of mind and the only way to get there is by going through the soul to its borderland. References:

(996.4) 91:2.6 During the earlier times of racial evolution and even at the present time, in the day-by-day experience of the average mortal, prayer is very much a phenomenon of man’s intercourse with his own subconscious. But there is also a domain of prayer wherein the intellectually alert and spiritually progressing individual attains more or less contact with the superconscious levels of the human mind, the domain of the indwelling Thought Adjuster. In addition, there is a definite spiritual phase of true prayer which concerns its reception and recognition by the spiritual forces of the universe, and which is entirely distinct from all human and intellectual association.

(2097.2) 196.3.31  The great challenge to modern man is to achieve better communication with the divine Monitor that dwells within the human mind. Man’s greatest adventure in the flesh consists in the well-balanced and sane effort to advance the borders of self-consciousness out through the dim realms of embryonic soul-consciousness in a wholehearted effort to reach the borderland of spirit-consciousness — contact with the divine presence. Such an experience constitutes God-consciousness, an experience mightily confirmative of the pre-existent truth of the religious experience of knowing God. Such spirit-consciousness is the equivalent of the knowledge of the actuality of sonship with God. Otherwise, the assurance of sonship is the experience of faith.


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Out in the worlds of time and space the Father contacts personality through his fragments. It is the Thought Adjuster who has contact with the personality circuit even though the Father himself is independently conscious of every personality. The focus is on the Creator-creature contact by the Father not just the Father's consciousness of personality. This is why worship is dispatched by the Thought Adjuster through the personality circuit to the Father. References:

(25.6) 1:3.6 In the universes God the Father is, in potential, the overcontroller of matter, mind, and spirit. Only by means of his far-flung personality circuit does God deal directly with the personalities of his vast creation of will creatures, but he is contactable (outside of Paradise) only in the presences of his fragmented entities, the will of God abroad in the universes. This Paradise spirit that indwells the minds of the mortals of time and there fosters the evolution of the immortal soul of the surviving creature is of the nature and divinity of the Universal Father. But the minds of such evolutionary creatures originate in the local universes and must gain divine perfection by achieving those experiential transformations of spiritual attainment which are the inevitable result of a creature’s choosing to do the will of the Father in heaven.

(65:4 5:3.2) Supplications of all kinds belong to the realm of the Eternal Son and the Son's spiritual organization. Prayers, all formal communications, everything except adoration and worship of the Universal Father, are matters that concern a local universe; they do not ordinarily proceed out of the realm of the jurisdiction of a Creator Son. But worship is undoubtedly encircuited and dispatched to the person of the Creator by the function of the Father's personality circuit. We further believe that such registry of the homage of an Adjuster-indwelt creature is facilitated by the Father's spirit presence. There exists a tremendous amount of evidence to substantiate such a belief, and I know that all orders of Father fragments are empowered to register the bona fide adoration of their subjects acceptably in the presence of the Universal Father. The Adjusters undoubtedly also utilize direct prepersonal channels of communication with God, and they are likewise able to utilize the spirit-gravity circuits of the Eternal Son.


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I don't remember if this has been posted yet, but here are the Revelation's definitions of evolutionary religion and revealed religion:

(1110.6) 101:5.3 1. Evolutionary religion. The experience of primitive worship, the religion which is a mind derivative.

(1110.7) 101:5.4 2. Revealed religion. The universe attitude which is a spirit derivative; the assurance of, and belief in, the conservation of eternal realities, the survival of personality, and the eventual attainment of the cosmic Deity, whose purpose has made all this possible. It is a part of the plan of the universe that, sooner or later, evolutionary religion is destined to receive the spiritual expansion of revelation.

Next one wonders what the difference is between primitive worship and true worship.


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