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fanofVan wrote:
please explain why there are more than one form.


Actually the goal of revelation is the same, in both “forms”, the only difference is the immediate audience. One illuminates the individual, the other illuminates the human race. One is periodic, the other continual. If generations upon generations have to go without the revelation of new meanings of already known facts, then spiritual evolution would progress at a frightfully slow pace. Also, the spiritual progress of the part is not jeopardized by the spiritual progress of the whole.

fanofVan wrote:
for truth cannot be perceived objectively by mortal mind, can it?


If it can't, why does the cosmic intuition of worship exist?


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fanofVan wrote:
Is not truth always subjective to experiential and perfecting mind? To whom is truth an objective reality kat? You?


As I point out above, truth is an objective reality along with beauty and goodness. Experience with truth is a religious experience of the soul and it is as real and objective as it can get. The expression of that experience is subjective in nature because it is colored by human emotion. So truth itself is an objective reality but the spiritual experience with truth is perceived as subjective. Accuracy Bradly. Accuracy.

(2095.4) 196:3.20 Every time man makes a reflective moral choice, he immediately experiences a new divine invasion of his soul. Moral choosing constitutes religion as the motive of inner response to outer conditions. But such a real religion is not a purely subjective experience. It signifies the whole of the subjectivity of the individual engaged in a meaningful and intelligent response to total objectivity — the universe and its Maker.

(2095.5) 196:3.21 The exquisite and transcendent experience of loving and being loved is not just a psychic illusion because it is so purely subjective. The one truly divine and objective reality that is associated with mortal beings, the Thought Adjuster, functions to human observation apparently as an exclusively subjective phenomenon. Man’s contact with the highest objective reality, God, is only through the purely subjective experience of knowing him, of worshiping him, of realizing sonship with him.


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fanofVan wrote:
And what has the reality of the Adjuster to do with any of this?


The Thought Adjuster has everything to do with revelation. There is no revelation without Deity whether it be visiting celestial Deity or indwelling Deity. Additionally, both personal, or autorevelation, and epochal revelation require the Thought Adjuster in order for revelation to be recognized as revelation. Revelation is superphilosophical, which means it requires spiritualized thinking.

(1109.4) 101:4.3  Truth is always a revelation: autorevelation when it emerges as a result of the work of the indwelling Adjuster; epochal revelation when it is presented by the function of some other celestial agency, group, or personality.


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fanofVan wrote:
Your snippet of a quote above left out the declaration and fact that the cosmology of epochal revelation is never inspired - it is fact and knowledge and can be discerned and believed and added to knowledge and perspective without the aid of the TA but simply by reason and the scientific method of logic.


Firstly, a non-inspired piece can be either fact, opinion or both. I believe both are contained in the Urantia Book. Disregarding opinion for now, how useful are facts without integrating them with the other two levels of reality? A revelation is always a spiritual experience, therefore facts and knowledge alone are insufficient for anything to qualify as a revelation. Philosophical thought is also required to bridge the gap between facts and truth. In fact, there are those who think the Urantia Book is strictly a philosophical work. Is the Urantia Book a revelation of fact or is it a revelation of truth? I think the latter since the value of truth is concealed with the facts. In the reference below the celestial author refers to the Urantia Papers as a "presentation of truth", and that's what qualifies it as a revelation.

(1008.2) 92:4.9 5. The Urantia Papers. The papers, of which this is one, constitute the most recent presentation of truth to the mortals of Urantia. These papers differ from all previous revelations, for they are not the work of a single universe personality but a composite composite presentation by many beings. But no revelation short of the attainment of the Universal Father can ever be complete. All other celestial ministrations are no more than partial, transient, and practically adapted to local conditions in time and space. While such admissions as this may possibly detract from the immediate force and authority of all revelations, the time has arrived on Urantia when it is advisable to make such frank statements, even at the risk of weakening the future influence and authority of this, the most recent of the revelations of truth to the mortal races of Urantia.


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As I have clearly stated and repeated, my opinions are merely opinions, subject to challenge and reconsideration and revision based on research, reflection, and feedback. I appreciate your responses to my many related questions which indicates my desire to gain better understanding.

I will continue my studies of the subjective experience and expression of truth and the growing objectivity we gain with experiential wisdom over time based on our inherent limitations and religious progress and transformation.

If the expression of truth is relative, partial, limited, and subjective then so is its experience the same. See 5:5.6 and 5:5.12 and 48:7.5 and 105:1.2 and especially 115 section 1. The UB clearly teaches our perspective and experience and understanding of reality is quite subjective, partial, incomplete, and evolving - not at all objective.

Reality, fact, and truth are all objective, even absolute...but not to experiential beings whose objectivity increases only according to experience, education, understanding, wisdom, and progress in the Spirit. Both fact and truth thus contribute to their integration by mind to add objectivity to perspective and adjust philosophy based on evolving experiential wisdom. This is as true for morontial mind and soul as it is for mortal mind.

This is the functional and relative reality of the evolving experiential life of all born and created in time and space. Neither of us is having an objective experience kat. Or so I understand the UB to say.


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Dear Bradly and katroofjebus,
Thanks for looking so deeply into all this! Two thoughts:

Six of the seven occurences of "self revelation" refer to absolute deites or the I Am revealing themselves. The seventh was that episode with Nalda (143:5.13)

Also, for me, this paragraph puts the phenomenon of truth in a whole new light:
UB 101:5.14 wrote:
"Increasingly throughout the morontia progression the assurance of truth replaces the assurance of faith. When you are finally mustered into the actual spirit world, then will the assurances of pure spirit insight operate in the place of faith and truth or, rather, in conjunction with, and superimposed upon, these former techniques of personality assurance." (1111.4, 101:5.14)

Truth as a "former technique of personality assurance"?

Nigel


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fanofVan wrote:
The fact that epochal revelation includes truth does not exclude the truth that epochal revelation also includes fact kat! You know this to be so. Why do you choose to obfuscate this fact and reality and function of epochal revelation? The Urantia Papers are filled with thousands upon thousands of facts from Page 1, paragraph 1, sentence 1 to last page and sentence!! The history of Nebadon and Urantia are fact as is the listing of Deity and the creatures of the universe of universes. Do you deny these facts????? And if not by the Papers and all other forms and prior epochal revelations, just how do you think such facts become known to the mortals who live on the evolutionary spheres of time???


Yes of course, facts are included in a revelation of truth. I don't believe I ever said otherwise.

Hidden within facts are values meant to be discovered by revelation. The function and purpose of revelation is to bridge the morontia gulf between material (facts) and spiritual (value), to help the mind discern the presence of value concealed within facts, and this requires the "spirit-born" "eye of faith".

(1137.2) 103:6.12 Out of his incomplete grasp of science, his faint hold upon religion, and his abortive attempts at metaphysics, man has attempted to construct his formulations of philosophy. And modern man would indeed build a worthy and engaging philosophy of himself and his universe were it not for the breakdown of his all-important and indispensable metaphysical connection between the worlds of matter and spirit, the failure of metaphysics to bridge the morontia gulf between the physical and the spiritual. Mortal man lacks the concept of morontia mind and material; and revelation is the only technique for atoning for this deficiency in the conceptual data which man so urgently needs in order to construct a logical philosophy of the universe and to arrive at a satisfying understanding of his sure and settled place in that universe.

(1137.3) 103:6.13 Revelation is evolutionary man’s only hope of bridging the morontia gulf. Faith and reason, unaided by mota, cannot conceive and construct a logical universe. Without the insight of mota, mortal man cannot discern goodness, love, and truth in the phenomena of the material world.

(2078.7) 195:7.4 Paradise values of eternity and infinity, of truth, beauty, and goodness, are concealed within the facts of the phenomena of the universes of time and space. But it requires the eye of faith in a spirit-born mortal to detect and discern these spiritual values.


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nnunn wrote:
Six of the seven occurences of "self revelation" refer to absolute deites or the I Am revealing themselves. The seventh was that episode with Nalda (143:5.13)


Due to Bradly's desire for accuracy of facts, please allow me to correct you. I count nine occurrences. I believe you omitted the following two references:

(31.6) 1:7.6 The higher concepts of universe personality imply: identity, self-consciousness, self-will, and possibility for self-revelation. And these characteristics further imply fellowship with other and equal personalities, such as exists in the personality associations of the Paradise Deities. And the absolute unity of these associations is so perfect that divinity becomes known by indivisibility, by oneness. “The Lord God is one.” Indivisibility of personality does not interfere with God’s bestowing his spirit to live in the hearts of mortal men. Indivisibility of a human father’s personality does not prevent the reproduction of mortal sons and daughters.

(192.6) 16:6.10 In the local universe mind bestowals, these three insights of the cosmic mind constitute the a priori assumptions which make it possible for man to function as a rational and self-conscious personality in the realms of science, philosophy, and religion. Stated otherwise, the recognition of the reality of these three manifestations of the Infinite is by a cosmic technique of self-revelation. Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man’s experience in and with things, meanings, and values.

nnunn wrote:
Truth as a "former technique of personality assurance"?


Again, for the sake of Bradly's insistence upon accuracy, it is written that pure spirit insight is superimposed upon, and functions in conjunction with, faith and truth. The various ministries are overlapping. The "former techniques of personality assurance" are foundational and are built upon.


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Quote:
Six of the seven occurences of "self revelation" refer to absolute deites or the I Am revealing themselves.


hmm well yeah that's a part of it but the papers example of our recognition of the reality of the three innate responses of the subabsolute cosmic mind, the source of the a priori assumptions of science, philosophy and religion, is something we reveal to ourselves....or at least to "clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds".

The Cosmic Mind

edit: oh kat beat me to it...nevermind...look a birdie!


Last edited by Makalu on Fri May 03, 2019 7:09 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Fine.
But then, I need to trust my perception.


I disagree. It is your perception that seems to so often get you in the weeds and ditches of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the text.


I must learn to trust my perception, even if my expression is not wrought of ultimate and final truth values. I want to observe beauty, know truth, and recognise goodness, and work in a silent regards to assist the life of God within every development of the grand universe.

In this respect, you are speaking about issues of personal discernment, but be careful. As much as you would contest the actual truth, which I espouse through my expression, you are hurting yourself with the "He is" misidentificational error, which can be just as detrimental as "I am" misrepresentation.

The "He is" applies to my own thoughts, as I am the one who thinks "He is", often enough during bouts of self-accusation something that another person does or says, something that happens per se, I will blame "He did this". But I do this, I am the one usually enough who has set the foundation of the universe off-kilter enough to either provoke the errors of accusation, or else not deal soundly enough with every situation I invovled in.

If it is my expression which the group would deem to be in error, then this would be in the apprehension or judgment of the Quorum within the group. I would like to foment and solidify the guidelines of Quorum within JEsusonian Truthbook. I do not regard the Thought Adjuster, as an individual fragment of God the Father within every human individual, as an experiencial actuality (and I accept that the ways of the Thought Adjuster may be unsearchable as is the Universal Father): I regard the Thought Adjuster as a theoretical possibility, but maybe people in Society who actually do have a connection with their Thought Adjusters "Thought Controllers", have acted in a fatherly way to help me find work and advice me as to reality approach.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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fanofVan wrote:
The arbiter of accuracy are the celestials and corporeal staff who present epochal revelation to every world. What group are you talking about? No mortals can arbitrate the facts of universe reality. You don't think the facts presented in the UB are understandable? You don't think the facts taught to mortals in Dalamatia and the Garden and to Mel's missionaries were factual? Or not understandable? So you think the authors of the UB have then failed in their mission as described in the Foreward, eh? Weird....all the way around...weird.


I am referring to the arbiter of the meaning of, and the application of facts by each individual. The "celestials and corporeal staff" who presented the Fifth Epochal Revelation admit that the facts of their presentation are already in need of clarification, yet true nonetheless. Don't forget that it is possible to be accurate about facts while being totally and everlastingly inaccurate about truth.

(555:1)  48:6.33 One can be technically right as to fact and everlastingly wrong in the truth.

(1109.2) 101:4.1 Because your world is generally ignorant of origins, even of physical origins, it has appeared to be wise from time to time to provide instruction in cosmology. And always has this made trouble for the future. The laws of revelation hamper us greatly by their proscription of the impartation of unearned or premature knowledge. Any cosmology presented as a part of revealed religion is destined to be outgrown in a very short time. Accordingly, future students of such a revelation are tempted to discard any element of genuine religious truth it may contain because they discover errors on the face of the associated cosmologies therein presented.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
Fine.
But then, I need to trust my perception.


I disagree. It is your perception that seems to so often get you in the weeds and ditches of misunderstanding and misrepresentation of the text.


I must learn to trust my perception, even if my expression is not wrought of ultimate and final truth values. I want to observe beauty, know truth, and recognise goodness, and work in a silent regards to assist the life of God within every development of the grand universe.

In this respect, you are speaking about issues of personal discernment, but be careful. As much as you would contest the actual truth, which I espouse through my expression, you are hurting yourself with the "He is" misidentificational error, which can be just as detrimental as "I am" misrepresentation.

The "He is" applies to my own thoughts, as I am the one who thinks "He is", often enough during bouts of self-accusation something that another person does or says, something that happens per se, I will blame "He did this". But I do this, I am the one usually enough who has set the foundation of the universe off-kilter enough to either provoke the errors of accusation, or else not deal soundly enough with every situation I invovled in.

If it is my expression which the group would deem to be in error, then this would be in the apprehension or judgment of the Quorum within the group. I would like to foment and solidify the guidelines of Quorum within JEsusonian Truthbook. I do not regard the Thought Adjuster, as an individual fragment of God the Father within every human individual, as an experiencial actuality (and I accept that the ways of the Thought Adjuster may be unsearchable as is the Universal Father): I regard the Thought Adjuster as a theoretical possibility, but maybe people in Society who actually do have a connection with their Thought Adjusters "Thought Controllers", have acted in a fatherly way to help me find work and advice me as to reality approach.


Thank you again Stephen for confirming that you do not believe the contents and claims of the UB. Despite your many frequent proclamations of belief, you are finally demonstrating a more truthful and accurate portrayal of your actual lack of belief and many disagreements with the contents of the Papers.

Your disbelief is fine and not unusual or unwelcome. We gather here as students, not a body of professed believers. Neither are we here to convince you or any others or to convert you to any cause or belief. My objection to your prior posts is the fact of your repetitious contradictions of the text with your own beliefs which conflict directly with the text in so many and such profound ways while you endlessly proclaim your belief in the UB.

Your latest claim here is specific and far more direct than usual (thank you): you do not believe the Adjusters are an actuality but only some theoretical possibility. Our prior disagreements have nothing at all to do with me or anyone else judging someone because they do not believe the UB. No, no. It is about misquoting, misrepresenting, twisting, misstating, and contradicting the UB AS IF one were representing its contents and AS IF that person were a believer in the teachings and AS IF one were a sincere student of the Papers. For, IMO, you are none of those Stephen. It is very insincere to claim to be a believer and yet know you are not and to claim the Papers say something they certainly do not and to be entirely indifferent to the actual contents and teachings while contradicting them and knowingly so.

I much prefer your honesty demonstrated in this post. It IS sincere. You sincerely disagree with and disbelieve the UB's teachings and consider them only to be a "theoretical possibility" and not an "actuality". Thank you for your honesty...finally!

What we do here Stephen is study the contents of the UB. No one here can prove them and no one here is going to try to. We simply read, study, share and seek to understand those contents. Some of us apply them to our daily life and find truth which adjusts our perspective of reality and brings change to our motives, intentions, priorities, and choices in life and some come to believe the contents and claims of the authors. But here, we are students first.

You must decide the value to you of such reading, study, and sharing. I hope you will come to accept that those beliefs, claims, proclamations, theories, and declarations you make here will always be compared to and contrasted with the Papers. That's what we do here. Your disbelief does not entitle you to additional accommodations. But it is helpful to know. Your beliefs are your own to choose Stephen. For myself, I have no doubt you are a God believer and you walk the Pilgrim's Path to Paradise...no matter our disagreements about the UB or any other thing.

Your proclaimed disbelief explains much about your many posts and topics here over the years. Peace.

:wink: :biggrin: 8)

107:0.5 (1176.5) It is the Adjuster who creates within man that unquenchable yearning and incessant longing to be like God, to attain Paradise, and there before the actual person of Deity to worship the infinite source of the divine gift. The Adjuster is the living presence which actually links the mortal son with his Paradise Father and draws him nearer and nearer to the Father. The Adjuster is our compensatory equalization of the enormous universe tension which is created by the distance of man’s removal from God and by the degree of his partiality in contrast with the universality of the eternal Father.

108:6.2 (1193.1) No matter what the previous status of the inhabitants of a world, subsequent to the bestowal of a divine Son and after the bestowal of the Spirit of Truth upon all humans, the Adjusters flock to such a world to indwell the minds of all normal will creatures. Following the completion of the mission of a Paradise bestowal Son, these Monitors truly become the “kingdom of heaven within you.” Through the bestowal of the divine gifts the Father makes the closest possible approach to sin and evil, for it is literally true that the Adjuster must coexist in the mortal mind even in the very midst of human unrighteousness. The indwelling Adjusters are particularly tormented by those thoughts which are purely sordid and selfish; they are distressed by irreverence for that which is beautiful and divine, and they are virtually thwarted in their work by many of man’s foolish animal fears and childish anxieties.

108:6.8 (1194.1) You humans have begun an endless unfolding of an almost infinite panorama, a limitless expanding of never-ending, ever-widening spheres of opportunity for exhilarating service, matchless adventure, sublime uncertainty, and boundless attainment. When the clouds gather overhead, your faith should accept the fact of the presence of the indwelling Adjuster, and thus you should be able to look beyond the mists of mortal uncertainty into the clear shining of the sun of eternal righteousness on the beckoning heights of the mansion worlds of Satania.

110:4.2 (1207.2) The Thought Adjuster is engaged in a constant effort so to spiritualize your mind as to evolve your morontia soul; but you yourself are mostly unconscious of this inner ministry. You are quite incapable of distinguishing the product of your own material intellect from that of the conjoint activities of your soul and the Adjuster.

110:6.6 (1210.1) Every decision you make either impedes or facilitates the function of the Adjuster; likewise do these very decisions determine your advancement in the circles of human achievement. It is true that the supremacy of a decision, its crisis relationship, has a great deal to do with its circle-making influence; nevertheless, numbers of decisions, frequent repetitions, persistent repetitions, are also essential to the habit-forming certainty of such reactions.


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Makalu wrote:
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Six of the seven occurences of "self revelation" refer to absolute deites or the I Am revealing themselves.


hmm well yeah that's a part of it but the papers example of our recognition of the reality of the three innate responses of the subabsolute cosmic mind, the source of the a priori assumptions of science, philosophy and religion, is something we reveal to ourselves....or at least to "clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds".

The Cosmic Mind

edit: oh kat beat me to it...nevermind...look a birdie!


kat claims there is no such thing as self-revelation or that it is the same form of revelation as personal revelation or the same thing as self consciousness - a little shifty and uncertain on that one. But the text seems clear that mind and self does reveal many aspects of reality without the Adjuster or Spirit of Truth to the individual or by the act of any celestial personality or group to the world. The self appears to be capable of reasoned observation that results in reality conclusions and perspective as a normal function of mind - self-revelation - the revelation of self, by self, to self - as a normal function of mortal mind and connection to the Adjutants circuitry.

Let us consider the great minds of science and reason who theorize and follow evidentiary trails to invent and to predict that which is true and factual. Does all of that process and result come only by Divine intervention and insertion - revelation by Deity or Epochal Revelation? Is there insight? Creativity? Imagination? Invention? Discovery? Or is every thing revealed then only revealed TO mind and never BY mind?

The authors claim to have incorporated over 1000 of humanity's best and highest concepts in the Papers. From whence did this come? The UB seems to indicate they originated within human mind first rather than given to mind by Spirit or by Epochal Revelation.

I think the evidence for self-revelation and the supporting text is not so easily dismissed and disclaimed and mislabeled. According to text, self-revelation is obviously NOT the same as self consciousness OR personal revelation. Kat - you're going to have to come up with another explanation than those. That dog ain't huntin'. Indeed, it's a direct contradiction to quotes already posted.

:wink:


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fanofVan wrote:
For this too is a claim of the channeler crowd....that the UB requires keys and great knowledge to decipher and only the few might interpret the meanings of the UB to others. Is that what you think?


Not at all. I do think it takes a modicum of intelligence, but not great knowledge. Each person is free to interpret the text according to his or her inner Spirit, and no one has the authority to prevent it. Even Lucifer was permitted to his own interpretation of reality.

fanofVan wrote:
Your many objections to my speculations about the differences in format, function, and purpose of the different forms of revelation do not address your own opinions about them. I look forward to those. Thanks.


Firstly, opinion can be accurate or inaccurate. If you want absolute accuracy, there is no room for opinion, mine, yours, or anyone else's. But that aside, what exactly do you think I've been posting if it hasn't been opinion?


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katroofjebus wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
For this too is a claim of the channeler crowd....that the UB requires keys and great knowledge to decipher and only the few might interpret the meanings of the UB to others. Is that what you think?


Not at all. I do think it takes a modicum of intelligence, but not great knowledge. Each person is free to interpret the text according to his or her inner Spirit, and no one has the authority to prevent it. Even Lucifer was permitted to his own interpretation of reality.

fanofVan wrote:
Your many objections to my speculations about the differences in format, function, and purpose of the different forms of revelation do not address your own opinions about them. I look forward to those. Thanks.


Firstly, opinion can be accurate or inaccurate. If you want absolute accuracy, there is no room for opinion, mine, yours, or anyone else's. But that aside, what exactly do you think I've been posting if it hasn't been opinion?


I've never had any problem with opinions or beliefs here...mine or others. If they are posted as such. I know you are angry at me regarding my treatment of Stephen and you hope to teach me some lesson by your recent attitude. But Stephen has been hiding his opinions behind declarations of fact, so many of which directly contradict the UB (20 direct contradictions declared as fact in 2 posts - a record for even him), while both declaring his belief in the UB and disagreeing with its content. You have accused me here of being less gracious than Jesus and not respecting Stephen's personality and ignoring the Golden Rule...and now you attack me personally and accordingly, perhaps so I can feel the lash myself. I am most willing to accept your rebuke and perhaps you have a more proper attitude and benevolent nature...but it ain't showing so much right now!! Hahahaha.

Stephen is indifferent to the contents or study of the Papers. He does not appear interested in learning or the study of anything which disagrees with his beliefs and opinions. I hope I demonstrate a different posture and attitude. I am most willing to study and learn....and be corrected! And rebuked!! I appreciate your time, perspective, and commentary. Thanks for being here kat.

8)


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