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 Post subject: Re: What is Assurance?
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SEla_Kelly, this posting is inappropriate, controversial, and inflammatory:

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"In those areas overpopulated now the situation will be dire eventually. Who knows when exactly but there are just far too many potential weak points across a spectrum of risks for such places. Those areas that have an overdependence on affluent living a similar situation is present. A wealthy mega urban area is a complex organism with high demands. Start cutting supplies and it will get ugly. Personally I would get the hell out of any mega urban region now while the status quo is more or less normal. We may be OK for a few more years but every year that goes by that population grows, climate destabilizes, the ecosystem declines, and the economy decays we are closer to an event like no one has ever known. It reminds me of time and getting old. Time speeds up for old people and the same can be said about a late stage civilization. The great depression was chicken ka kadoodie compared to what is coming someday." -Comment by 'Davy'


It has nothing to do with assurance, as treated in The Urantia Book, or in this thread. Moreover, your very negative take on the state of the world is not welcome. The scenarios you create here in this post have very little of value to others who wish to discuss the topic of assurance, which by its very nature, and in the context that the Master talked about, runs completely contrary to this dire and unnecessary posting of yours.

"Assurance" is not a subject about which anyone welcomes a discussion of the "black patches of evil" that are present in our world. We get quite enough of that in our daily news - and in The Urantia Book, we are counseled to avoid such emphasis, concentrating instead on the abundant evidences of goodness that are available to all who pursue a spiritual path. Assurance, as discussed by the Master, is one of those evidences.

As mentioned in an earlier post, it may be time for you to take a breather, and to step back for a time. Listen to what others are saying and try to gain some perspective.

This Forum is a service provided to you and others. It is not a free-for-all where anything goes. Also as mentioned before, if you really have some kind of point that you want to make that is controversial, please open a thread in one of the other discussion sections specifically designed for that.

For now, I am asking you to step back unless and until you can contribute something positive to the discussion. Failure to do so will earn you a time out.

the management


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 Post subject: Re: What is Assurance?
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I am sorry but even if filial piety is righteous and true, "one must be willing to foresake individual members of the family in order to be Jesus' disciple."


That's not correct. See the quotes below.

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163:2.2 (1801.5) One earnest disciple came to Jesus, saying: “Master, I would be one of your new apostles, but my father is very old and near death; could I be permitted to return home to bury him?” To this man Jesus said: “My son, the foxes have holes, and the birds of heaven have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. You are a faithful disciple, and you can remain such while you return home to minister to your loved ones, but not so with my gospel messengers. They have forsaken all to follow me and proclaim the kingdom. If you would be an ordained teacher, you must let others bury the dead while you go forth to publish the good news.” And this man went away in great disappointment.

163:2.3 (1801.6) Another disciple came to the Master and said: “I would become an ordained messenger, but I would like to go to my home for a short while to comfort my family.” And Jesus replied: “If you would be ordained, you must be willing to forsake all. The gospel messengers cannot have divided affections. No man, having put his hand to the plough, if he turns back, is worthy to become a messenger of the kingdom.”


Jesus said that to become a "gospel messenger" or an "ordained teacher" the apostles back in the context of Jesus' day and in the political enviroment they were in, it was necessary for them to leave their families in their home location and travel abroad to share the gospel message.

Even today, missionaries of many disparate faiths, leave their families at home and travel abroad to preach. That is a choice they make of their own free will. But one can certainly be a 'disciple' (meaning, a follower of Jesus and a faithful individual) without forsaking or abandoning family members.


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I am reminded of an old saying (Twain I think but don't quote me...hahaha):

"Just because a fool says the earth is round don't make it flat!"

Despite the irrational manner in which the topic was raised, the issue of social assurance is interesting. It is unfortunate SEla did not see fit simply to ask about the UB's voluminous and exhaustive contents about social assurance but let's just assume such a question has been posed shall we?


I have often claimed that one of the favorite things about the UB to me is its endless assurances and reassurances regarding God's friendly universe and our relationship to God and our destiny. All of these are certainly related and connected directly to each other. How can we enjoy total personal assurance in a material world which appears chaotic and filled with so many forms of temporal risks and suffering? A very relevant question and one which the UB offers us much to consider!


The first related question might be why do people suffer? Why does God allow suffering? We certainly know, here at TB, that God does not cause suffering...but certainly does God allow it. And then we might ask if there is a meaning, value, and purpose to suffering? The UB is clear and redundant that free will, immaturity, evolution, and self importance are all causes of suffering...causes which God will not interfere with except for certain time, proximity, and radial effect-limits on the repercussions of such errors, evils, and sins. And in an evolutionary universe where experiential wisdom is the prize, then certainly is there value and purpose to suffering. The hammer and anvil shape and form and transform the parts into the perfecting causes of Divine effects in the universes of time and space and with the Deity of the Supreme as well! In fact, we are told the greatest affliction we can suffer is no afflictions at all!! Consider that fact and truth.

Over 40 pages of historical quotes here on TB about suffering, including entire topics and discussions:

search.php?st=0&sk=t&sd=d&sr=posts&keywords=suffering


But remember this is all about evolutionary progress, both personal and social...or planetary. The UB says that as go the parts so goes the whole! Our planet's progress depends on the work of the Most Highs and angels and Midwayers but also on the spiritualization of each person on the planet. But people are here for such a short time. How does a world progress? Such as over the past 1 million years? And the next million years? It's all in the Urantia Papers!! Interested?


Start by reading Paper 52 - Planetary Mortal Epochs. Every planet, once considered populated by mortals and declared as such, has an inevitable destiny!! Fearmongering doubters and paranoids obviously have not read or do not believe the reality presented in this one Paper or the entirity of the UB. For the detailed history of our own world which admittedly does have a very unique evolutionary path, please read Papers 63-93 for the record of our own progress from savagery and barbarity to today's environment of semi-savagery and semi-barbarity!! Naturally, in some parts of the world different elements and examples of greater enlightenment can be found...the beacons or flickering lights of progress still to come for the rest of us. As the world progresses, the whole does contribute to the progress of the each as well.


And certain profoundly influential and differential and timely influences are brought to bear upon a world...such as the bestowal of the Sons of God who deliver the Spirit of Truth and unleash the flood of God Fragments upon a world as occured here some 2000 years ago! But there are many such Divine and Deity sourced influences upon this and all worlds to assure the inevitability of attaining Light and Life per Paper 52's teachings.


One of the more fascinating teachings about the social-perspective in the UB is that the enlightened, informed, and spiritual mind begins to see the world and today and every relationship and decision with a new time unit lens of perspective. Actually the more spiritized the mind the more the world changes in our perspective of it. It's like one of those visual psyche tests that may be shown to hold two oppositional pictures to different eyes and minds of perception. The world does not change materially but our view of the world SHOULD evolve and change and become more positive and forgiving and hopeful and trusting and ASSURED as to its OBVIOUS evolutionary progress and its trajectory and its vector or target.

118:1.3 (1295.3) There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

118:1.6 (1295.6) Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

118:1.7 (1295.7) To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

118:1.8 (1295.8) The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.


Those who are ruled by doom and gloom and anxiety and doubt and parnoia are spirituallly immature and suffer from blindness and ignorance and prejudice (those last two being the primary obstacles to spiritual progress by the way).


So social assurance comes only by trust in God and by personal spiritual assurance delivered by faith and truth. The one follows the other. To trust God is not naive. To have confidence in God's purpose, plan, and power is not naive either. To embrace anxiety and be determined to share it with others endlessly is pure madness and selfishness. Most unfortunate to have it exhibited here so frequently by some. May the doubters and fearmongers find God within and grow in assurance!!

FEAR NOT !!

:biggrin: :wink: 8)


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 Post subject: Re: What is Assurance?
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Agon D. Onter wrote:
SEla_Kelly wrote:
I am sorry but even if filial piety is righteous and true, "one must be willing to foresake individual members of the family in order to be Jesus' disciple."


That's not correct. See the quotes below.

Quote:
163:2.2 (1801.5) One earnest disciple came to Jesus, saying: “Master, I would be one of your new apostles, but my father is very old and near death; could I be permitted to return home to bury him?” To this man Jesus said: “My son, the foxes have holes, and the birds of heaven have nests, but the Son of Man has nowhere to lay his head. You are a faithful disciple, and you can remain such while you return home to minister to your loved ones, but not so with my gospel messengers. They have forsaken all to follow me and proclaim the kingdom. If you would be an ordained teacher, you must let others bury the dead while you go forth to publish the good news.” And this man went away in great disappointment.

163:2.3 (1801.6) Another disciple came to the Master and said: “I would become an ordained messenger, but I would like to go to my home for a short while to comfort my family.” And Jesus replied: “If you would be ordained, you must be willing to forsake all. The gospel messengers cannot have divided affections. No man, having put his hand to the plough, if he turns back, is worthy to become a messenger of the kingdom.”


Jesus said that to become a "gospel messenger" or an "ordained teacher" the apostles back in the context of Jesus' day and in the political enviroment they were in, it was necessary for them to leave their families in their home location and travel abroad to share the gospel message.

Even today, missionaries of many disparate faiths, leave their families at home and travel abroad to preach. That is a choice they make of their own free will. But one can certainly be a 'disciple' (meaning, a follower of Jesus and a faithful individual) without forsaking or abandoning family members.



Excellent post! Well said.

We are advised to well consider the specific audience and context of the words of the Master to better understand those words. The audience of these words is the Apostles. And on the way to Jerusalem where they are about to witness the murder of Jesus and be immediately subjected to capture, torture, and death. This is a grave time of great risk and none of them are truly prepared for the horror they are about to witness. Jesus is trying to prepare them for the very end of his and perhaps their own life. This is the context, the time, and the audience for these words...not us.

To believers we are told the yoke is light and that the personal religious experience should presume salvation and eternal life as do the spirits tell us by faith and truth affirmations (103:9.5). We are also told that doubt/fear is our biggest obstacle to sublime peace and confident expectations of Paradise. Believers are NOT told to forsake family, home, community, career, or any other form of social position.

Little is more sacred than family, home, and community for the believer and the ministry of love as we pass by. Even occupation is sacred to the believer!

155:6.11 (1732.4) Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness—justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.

:wink: :biggrin: 8)


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fanofVan says:

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Still does Stephen post snippets to twist the text to his purposes. He proclaims falsehoods and misquotes the UB to mislead and misinform the students here with his paranoiac fear mongering. Such behavior is a true threat and menace to any study group of the Revelation IMO.


And I say - lighten up on SEla_Kelly. He may have a streak of doom and gloom, but that is not a character flaw per se. He is certainly not alone is this attitude, nor is he without the same help that we all have to pull out of it. No need to ascribe sinister motives to one who is afflicted thus (and this is also a violation of the "ad hominem" guideline).

Let's carry on and be of good cheer.

MaryJo


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:biggrin: 8)


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Okay...so it is my conclusion/opinion that social assurance is primarily derived from a perspective and philosophy built on faith, truth, and religious experience which delivers a sublime peace as well as the fruits of the Spirit. The additional assurance of knowledge by epochal revelation which corrects and clarifies our view of universe reality should certainly alleviate both personal and social anxieties.

It is the growing sense of personal assurance that delivers social assurances. Jesus spent his entire ministry spreading assurance and sublime confidence in good cheer.

Those who feel fear for self or the planet lack confidence in God's friendly universe and their own place in it. "Anxiety must be abandoned" we are taught for our own progress and to be of any real help to our family, community, and world. Otherwise we merely add fear to the problem of fear and do not help or serve others.

Such anxiety and fear is pure mind poison. To consume such poisons may not be a character flaw (a matter of speculative opinion at best) but what of sharing such poisons of fear and doubt with others? Is that a character flaw? I think so...yes.

The very premise and promise of the URANTIA Book IS ASSURANCE!!! Fear mongering is the very antithesis of the teachings. Indeed fear mongers should consider the warning from the Master about the mill stone.

:!: 8)

So, how has the UB reduced your anxieties and increased your assurance regarding personal and planetary destinies?


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A little reassurance anyone??

159:3.10 You shall not portray your teacher as a man of sorrows. Future generations shall know also the radiance of our joy, the buoyance of our good will, and the inspiration of our good humor. We proclaim a message of good news which is infectious in its transforming power. Our religion is throbbing with new life and new meanings. Those who accept this teaching are filled with joy and in their hearts are constrained to rejoice evermore. Increasing happiness is always the experience of all who are certain about God.

159:3.11 Teach all believers to avoid leaning upon the insecure props of false sympathy. You cannot develop strong characters out of the indulgence of self-pity; honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery. Extend sympathy to the brave and courageous while you withhold overmuch pity from those cowardly souls who only halfheartedly stand up before the trials of living. Offer not consolation to those who lie down before their troubles without a struggle. Sympathize not with your fellows merely that they may sympathize with you in return.

159:3.12 When my children once become self-conscious of the assurance of the divine presence, such a faith will expand the mind, ennoble the soul, reinforce the personality, augment the happiness, deepen the spirit perception, and enhance the power to love and be loved.

159:3.13 Teach all believers that those who enter the kingdom are not thereby rendered immune to the accidents of time or to the ordinary catastrophes of nature. Believing the gospel will not prevent getting into trouble, but it will insure that you shall be unafraid when trouble does overtake you. If you dare to believe in me and wholeheartedly proceed to follow after me, you shall most certainly by so doing enter upon the sure pathway to trouble. I do not promise to deliver you from the waters of adversity, but I do promise to go with you through all of them.

181:1.9 Jesus was determined, persistent, and thoroughly devoted to the accomplishment of his mission, but he was not an unfeeling and calloused stoic; he ever sought for the cheerful aspects of his life experiences, but he was not a blind and self-deceived optimist. The Master knew all that was to befall him, and he was unafraid. After he had bestowed this peace upon each of his followers, he could consistently say, “Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.”

181:1.10 The peace of Jesus is, then, the peace and assurance of a son who fully believes that his career for time and eternity is safely and wholly in the care and keeping of an all-wise, all-loving, and all-powerful spirit Father. And this is, indeed, a peace which passes the understanding of mortal mind, but which can be enjoyed to the full by the believing human heart.

195:5.8 Religion is designed to find those values in the universe which call forth faith, trust, and assurance; religion culminates in worship. Religion discovers for the soul those supreme values which are in contrast with the relative values discovered by the mind. Such superhuman insight can be had only through genuine religious experience.

196:0.12 The faith of Jesus attained the purity of a child's trust. His faith was so absolute and undoubting that it responded to the charm of the contact of fellow beings and to the wonders of the universe. His sense of dependence on the divine was so complete and so confident that it yielded the joy and the assurance of absolute personal security. There was no hesitating pretense in his religious experience. In this giant intellect of the full-grown man the faith of the child reigned supreme in all matters relating to the religious consciousness. It is not strange that he once said, “Except you become as a little child, you shall not enter the kingdom.” Notwithstanding that Jesus' faith was childlike, it was in no sense childish.

196:0.13 Jesus does not require his disciples to believe in him but rather to believe with him, believe in the reality of the love of God and in full confidence accept the security of the assurance of sonship with the heavenly Father. The Master desires that all his followers should fully share his transcendent faith. Jesus most touchingly challenged his followers, not only to believe what he believed, but also to believe as he believed. This is the full significance of his one supreme requirement, “Follow me.”

Me here: THIS is the message of hope, trust, faith, peace, and assurance in the UB and by the words of the Master!!

And neither are we to be overprotective and sympathetic to those ones who suffer by their own choices and metaphysics and lack of faith and hope and trust and peace. This they CHOOSE. We are not gathered here as their audience and victims to silently submit to and endure their errors and evil of perspective and belief they choose to impose upon others...as if that were some form of loving service....it certainly is not that!

Fear mongers are the enemies of truth and self victimized. To suffer them silently is nothing I can find recommended in the Revelation. But I look forward to evidence to the contrary. What is false sympathy? We are taught to "honestly endeavor to avoid the deceptive influence of mere fellowship in misery." The deceptive influence? The sharing of mind poison with one another? Hmmmmm…………


:wink: :idea: :?: :!: 8)


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There is no such thing as reassurance since you are only offering intellectual crystalisis, which is not amenable to the living, associative structures of the human mind. Every human individual is forced to strive to create out of the wisdom garnered only in one particular moment to the next. The only thing which offers the guaranteed of assurance, is the skills borne of the unconsciousness through human experiencial striving, which thus edify the character and personality of the morontial life.

I would say, according to the theories of Johan Huizinga, delineated in his "Homo Ludens", we could see Children acquiring experiences, in the actual lifespan "Game of Life". Certain Impressions, brought on through observation of the environment, or acquired through the art of socialisation, are indispensible links "keys of new future ideational patterns", that shape and influence the perception of a maturing adult. Such "keys" create a new set of preferences for the maturing adult, and therefore impact the kind of choices that are being made, the choices which occur after precedent has developed in the human soul. Future goals and experiences develop from the original neural trees, forged/nurtured inside the ideational patterns of Children in the protection/privacy of human families. We can observe, in the family of Joseph & Mary of Nazareth, all children encouraged to exhaust personality potentials through the acquirement of skills and the elaboration of professional craftmanships.

The exhausting of personality potentials, through their proper exploration as in an apprenticeship or home schooling, should be for the Child in a safe environment with wise oversight/administration.

Why am I explaining this maybe it seems off-topic but it is the elaboration of what I meant by "skills forged in the unconscious human experience."

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It is not possible to exhaust personality potentials. Also, the unconscious is not where we want to experience our lives; we need to elevate our experience from our conscious to our superconscious. At least, that is what the UB says.


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SEla_Kelly wrote:
There is no such thing as reassurance since you are only offering intellectual crystalisis, which is not amenable to the living, associative structures of the human mind. Every human individual is forced to strive to create out of the wisdom garnered only in one particular moment to the next. The only thing which offers the guaranteed of assurance, is the skills borne of the unconsciousness through human experiencial striving, which thus edify the character and personality of the morontial life.

I would say, according to the theories of Johan Huizinga, delineated in his "Homo Ludens", we could see Children acquiring experiences, in the actual lifespan "Game of Life". Certain Impressions, brought on through observation of the environment, or acquired through the art of socialisation, are indispensible links "keys of new future ideational patterns", that shape and influence the perception of a maturing adult. Such "keys" create a new set of preferences for the maturing adult, and therefore impact the kind of choices that are being made, the choices which occur after precedent has developed in the human soul. Future goals and experiences develop from the original neural trees, forged/nurtured inside the ideational patterns of Children in the protection/privacy of human families. We can observe, in the family of Joseph & Mary of Nazareth, all children encouraged to exhaust personality potentials through the acquirement of skills and the elaboration of professional craftmanships.

The exhausting of personality potentials, through their proper exploration as in an apprenticeship or home schooling, should be for the Child in a safe environment with wise oversight/administration.

Why am I explaining this maybe it seems off-topic but it is the elaboration of what I meant by "skills forged in the unconscious human experience."


So you claim that the UB offers only "intellectual crystalisis" (whatever that may be - definition please?) - do you mean crystallization? Or that is what Jesus and the Spirit of Truth and the Comforter offers us? Or do you mean the Holy Spirit in faith affirmations? Or the God Fragment in truth affirmations and assurances? So it is your claim then that the attachment of the branch to the vine does not result in assurance?


What are the "living, associative structures of the human mind"?? Do you mean the ministering Spirits within are "structures" "of" "mind"?


You are claiming that socialization or apprenticeship or home schooling delivers personal/spiritual assurance by the exhausting of potentials?


What skills are ever or ever can be "born in" or "forged in the unconscious"? And what human experience is ever unconscious?

You do know the soul is not unconscious, right?

So how do you explain your personal lack of assurance Stephen?


Once again do you divert and hijack the topic with a word jumble of terms that are nonsensical and which defy and contradict the UB. It does not seem "off topic"...it is off topic. And is also pure gibberish. Adding nothing to the topic but interruption. Pop psychology that either ignores or contradicts "Assurance" as a real and very human experience of reality.

8)


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SEla_Kelly, this post is inappropriate:

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There is no such thing as reassurance since you are only offering intellectual crystalisis, which is not amenable to the living, associative structures of the human mind. Every human individual is forced to strive to create out of the wisdom garnered only in one particular moment to the next. The only thing which offers the guaranteed of assurance, is the skills borne of the unconsciousness through human experiencial striving, which thus edify the character and personality of the morontial life.


The subject of the thread is Assurance. That it refers to assurance as taught in The Urantia Book is a given. So, your denial of assurance is way off base. And what is "crystalisis?"

Some of the points you make - specifically the references to Jesus' family are good observations, but without any substance about assurance.

As mentioned before, you would do well to join in to a thread only when you are prepared to discuss the topic as it relates to The Urantia Book. Please consider that you are a guest here. And this is a Forum of Urantia Book students discussing topics as they relate to The Urantia Book.

maryjo


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maryjo606 wrote:
SEla_Kelly, this post is inappropriate:

Quote:
There is no such thing as reassurance since you are only offering intellectual crystalisis, which is not amenable to the living, associative structures of the human mind. Every human individual is forced to strive to create out of the wisdom garnered only in one particular moment to the next. The only thing which offers the guaranteed of assurance, is the skills borne of the unconsciousness through human experiencial striving, which thus edify the character and personality of the morontial life.


The subject of the thread is Assurance. That it refers to assurance as taught in The Urantia Book is a given. So, your denial of assurance is way off base. And what is "crystalisis?"

Some of the points you make - specifically the references to Jesus' family are good observations, but without any substance about assurance.

As mentioned before, you would do well to join in to a thread only when you are prepared to discuss the topic as it relates to The Urantia Book. Please consider that you are a guest here. And this is a Forum of Urantia Book students discussing topics as they relate to The Urantia Book.

maryjo


Reminds me of an old fishing joke: Pete and his brother Repeat were out fishing in a boat. Pete fell out of the boat. Who was left? Repeat. Okay. Pete and his brother Repeat were out fishing in a boat. Pete fell out of the boat. Who was left? Repeat. Okay....the joke fails to be funny....eventually.




:roll:


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Taken from Fanofvan quote at beginning of thread:

“Religion, the conviction-faith of the personality, can always triumph over the superficially contradictory logic of despair born in the unbelieving material mind. There really is a true and genuine inner voice, that "true light which lights every man who comes into the world." And this spirit leading is distinct from the ethical prompting of human conscience. The feeling of religious assurance is more than an emotional feeling. The assurance of religion transcends the reason of the mind, even the logic of philosophy. Religion is faith, trust, and assurance.”

Don’t know yet how to highlight in red yet but I would have included the last sentence that religion is faith, trust and assurance.
Assurance is like the feedback you get when your faith graduates to trust.
It’s in the same arena that the Agondonter must deal with.
In order to believe without seeing there must be something very profound about faith and trust in order to have that assurance of things to come in regard to survival and personal relationship with diety.
It must be at least or more powerful than scientific facts and I say more because the true scientists knows that the facts of today are subject to change, upgrade or being disproven.
There is something more solid about assurance in regard to faith and trust and religion, even though it cannot be proven by scientific method of today


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 Post subject: Re: What is Assurance?
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fanofVan wrote:
..Okay....the joke fails to be funny....eventually.



Was it ever funny in the first place? Mayhaps I am just miserable :lol:

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