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fanofVan wrote:
An interesting recital of beliefs and opinions. You are welcome to them. Of course one's beliefs and opinions are neither fact nor truth, as you know. Others believe differently and have different opinions.


But of course! Otherwise we are children of different Gods. Is anyone a child of a lesser God!

fanofVan wrote:
The authors of the UB apparently disagree. The very purpose of the UB, or a very important purpose at least, is the definition of terms and concepts, as is clearly stated in the Forward. Words do have specific definitions - meanings - which can be and are agreed upon as to those. The UB defines them with great authority, specificity, redundancy, and eloquence IMO.



fanofVan wrote:
The authors of the UB apparently disagree. The very purpose of the UB, or a very important purpose at least, is the definition of terms and concepts, as is clearly stated in the Forward. Words do have specific definitions - meanings - which can be and are agreed upon as to those. The UB defines them with great authority, specificity, redundancy, and eloquence IMO.


fanofVan wrote:
Even an individual student will, over time and sufficient study, discover new meanings in old and well known facts we are told...and may discover new forms of study which bring good results.


If as you say, "words have specific definitions - meanings - which can be agreed upon", then why do you then say that "an individual student will, over time and sufficient study, discover new meanings in old"???

Which is it? Are new meanings of words discoverable or are terms and concepts (meanings) forever clearly stated in the Forward? I am glad you admitted that this was your opinion because, as you know others have their own.

fanofVan wrote:
An interesting recital of beliefs and opinions. You are welcome to them. Of course one's beliefs and opinions are neither fact nor truth, as you know. Others believe differently and have different opinions.


You are welcomed to your own opinions but please clarify which of the contradictory opinion you hold.


fanofVan wrote:
I think Jesus taught the masses by parable to confound his enemies...


Ok, then why would Jesus confound his enemies? Did Jesus not love his enemies? Why would Jesus want to confound whom he loves?


fanofVan wrote:
As to "interpretation"....hmmmmm....does one interpret facts?


The sky is blue. Is this a fact? If so, how would you interpret this fact. Or is the sky "azul"? What of the color blind person? Is color subjective or objective?


fanofVan wrote:
There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.


If there is no room or need to offer one's opinion and interpretation about TUB then why do you so prolifically offer them up in abundance??? And then you tell me that I am entitled to my opinions but not my facts.


fanofVan wrote:
I have found meaning, benefit, and value in all those forms of seeking, study, and learning. Who says one should or should not or can or cannot learn in one way or another? You? Or me? Hahahahahah....Hardly. To say or believe such a thing would only declare our own superiority and the inferiority of others I think. Dangerous ground indeed. Merely immature inexperience and sef puffery might lead to such beliefs and claims.



You have claimed that my ideas are "stupid". Then are you treading on dangerous ground, Bradly, or do you just disagree? Can't you just disagree without chalking it up to immature inexperience and self puffery?


Louis


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"New meanings" means more meaning, greater meaning, more complete meaning, enhanced meaning...not a hard concept surely!!? Truths are similar, no?

Fortunately, we have the revelation to study to answer your questions about parables! Actually Jesus taught the Apostles and others primarily by questions...as illustrated in the UB for those who study it! You seem a little "confounded" yourself there toto/Manny/Louis/loucol/JohnnyBones...so many identities/opinions to manage perhaps!?

138:8.10 (1546.1) Though Jesus’ public teaching mainly consisted in parables and short discourses, he invariably taught his apostles by questions and answers. He would always pause to answer sincere questions during his later public discourses.

151:1.4 (1689.2) “In patience have I instructed you all this time. To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the undiscerning multitudes and to those who seek our destruction, from now on, the mysteries of the kingdom shall be presented in parables. And this we will do so that those who really desire to enter the kingdom may discern the meaning of the teaching and thus find salvation, while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing. My children, do you not perceive the law of the spirit which decrees that to him who has shall be given so that he shall have an abundance; but from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he has. Therefore will I henceforth speak to the people much in parables to the end that our friends and those who desire to know the truth may find that which they seek, while our enemies and those who love not the truth may hear without understanding. Many of these people follow not in the way of the truth. The prophet did, indeed, describe all such undiscerning souls when he said: ‘For this people’s heart has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed lest they should discern the truth and understand it in their hearts.’”


I believe the term "stupid" is introduced by yourself...not by me. "Seeing without seeing and hearing without hearing" appears confounding indeed!

And I think those opinions of mine and contents of the UB which conflict and disagree with your beliefs and words are apparent enough...don't you? I will continue to post those as opportunities are presented. Thank you.

8)


Last edited by fanofVan on Mon Apr 02, 2018 10:49 am +0000, edited 5 times in total.

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To better understand the difference between parables and the UB, consider a study of Paper 151! I do agree that a similarity in all knowledge and study is the fact that greater experience, knowledge, and wisdom should and does lead to enhancement of appreciation, understanding, and utilization of knowledge...greater meaning and new meanings from known facts!

I also agree that, similar to parables, the UB is written so as to appeal to all levels of experience, perspective, and intellect!

151:3.6 (1692.5) The parable provides for a simultaneous appeal to vastly different levels of mind and spirit. The parable stimulates the imagination, challenges the discrimination, and provokes critical thinking; it promotes sympathy without arousing antagonism.

151:3.14 (1693.4) Jesus also resorted to the use of parables as the best possible refutation of the studied effort of the religious leaders at Jerusalem to teach that all of his work was done by the assistance of demons and the prince of devils. The appeal to nature was in contravention of such teaching since the people of that day looked upon all natural phenomena as the product of the direct act of spiritual beings and supernatural forces. He also determined upon this method of teaching because it enabled him to proclaim vital truths to those who desired to know the better way while at the same time affording his enemies less opportunity to find cause for offense and for accusations against him.

The parable confounds those who are enemies of truth and who are masters of prejudice....whomever they may be!

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
"New meanings" means more meaning, greater meaning, more complete meaning, enhanced meaning...not a hard concept surely!!? Truths are similar, no?


Thank you for that clarification. But does the Forwards continue to re-clarify meanings, add meaning, or enhance its word symbol meanings? Or is it your mind and my mind that does that?



fanofVan wrote:
Fortunately, we have the revelation to study to answer your questions about parables! Actually Jesus taught the Apostles and others primarily by questions...as illustrated in the UB for those who study it! You seem a little "confounded" yourself there toto/Manny/Louis/loucol/JohnnyBones...so many identities/opinions to manage perhaps!?


Perhaps a little snarky and insincere, Bradly? I am not confounded, I simply interpret the text from my point of view.


fanofVan wrote:
151:1.4 (1689.2) “In patience have I instructed you all this time. To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the undiscerning multitudes and to those who seek our destruction, from now on, the mysteries of the kingdom shall be presented in parables. And this we will do so that those who really desire to enter the kingdom may discern the meaning of the teaching and thus find salvation, while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing. My children, do you not perceive the law of the spirit which decrees that to him who has shall be given so that he shall have an abundance; but from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he has. Therefore will I henceforth speak to the people much in parables to the end that our friends and those who desire to know the truth may find that which they seek, while our enemies and those who love not the truth may hear without understanding. Many of these people follow not in the way of the truth. The prophet did, indeed, describe all such undiscerning souls when he said: ‘For this people’s heart has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed lest they should discern the truth and understand it in their hearts.’”


It is obvious to me that I interpreted this quote a little differently. I did not take away from this quote that it was Jesus' intent to confound his enemies, only that it would confound those who listened only to ensnare the brotherhood. This is the law of the spirit, not an unloving act on the part of Jesus. Did he not say to his apostles to love their enemies and pray for those who would do harm to them? Your interpretation gives Jesus a sinister intent. Is it not the Devil's purpose to deceive and confound? Is it not Satan's way to confuse with duplicity and inconsistencies? Why would you interpret the intent of Jesus's Parables in such a way?


fanofVan wrote:
I believe the term "stupid" is introduced by yourself...not by me. "Seeing without seeing and hearing without hearing" appears confounding indeed!


Did you not say the following in another thread just recently?

POPPYCOCK ALERT!!! Louis/toto/etc. still and also misunderstands THIS very elemental and foundational fact, despite making this claim and being corrected multiple times here. So is he stupid??!! Blind??!! Or does his agenda of distortion and defiance of the UB simply not allow his prejudice to acknowledge factual reality as clearly presented in the Revelation??!! What's up with that? Good Grief!

So you questioned whether I was stupid or just blind, with a question mark and an exclamation point. Which is it?

Perhaps you just forgot that you wrote that. I'm not confounded and neither am I surprised. And I am not surprised that you find yourself in charge of correcting me and others as to the factual realities, as clearly presented in the Revelation.


fanofVan wrote:
In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.



I guess that these impeccable credential entitles you to state your opinions as fact. But I still want to see your diploma from Paradise. Perhaps we should call you Professor Bradly. You certainly deserve this status and for others to sit at your feet, no?

fanofVan wrote:
I also agree that, similar to parables, the UB is written so as to appeal to all levels of experience, perspective, and intellect!


So what makes your level of experience, perspective and intellect more superior and worthy of rabbinical admiration? Why can you question my experience, perspective and intellect and judge me stupid and blind? Again, what is your angle, Bradly?


fanofVan wrote:
And I think those opinions of mine and contents of the UB which conflict and disagree with your beliefs and words are apparent enough...don't you? I will continue to post those as opportunities are presented. Thank you.


Are you equating your opinions and the contents of the UB? This seems to be the only consistent theme of yours. Those who conflict with your opinion also conflict with the UB; is that right?

fanofVan wrote:
The parable confounds those who are enemies of truth and who are masters of prejudice....whomever they may be!


Yes, but beware of the intent to ensnare. The law of the spirit is what you would call Karma.

Again, in presenting this next quote and highlighting "his enemies", it seems that you lost the meaning.

fanofVan wrote:
"He also determined upon this method of teaching because it enabled him to proclaim vital truths to those who desired to know the better way while at the same time affording his enemies less opportunity to find cause for offense and for accusations against him."


Why did you not point out the positive? Jesus as, a peacemaker, would try and lessen the opportunity for those who opposed him to find cause for offense. Jesus sought peace, not the further confounding of his enemies.


Louis


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I found this written "fact":

toto wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.



Then I found these thoughts from Bradly in UAI.


Bradly wrote:
I agree facts are not particularly useful when not utilized in conjunction with a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiritual world, the integration of our very being and place of being…and this requires the evolutionary assurances of faith and the revelatory assurance of truth to bring meaning to facts/knowledge.


Can we opine or interpret anything, facts included, without a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiriatual world etc. as you state above? Do the tens of thousands of facts in TUB stand alone?


How many persons have you tried to confuse here badly?

Louis


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toto wrote:
I found this written "fact":

toto wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
There are tens of thousands of facts in the UB that offer no need for or room for one's opinion and interpretation....they are clearly specified with authority and clarity....and provide ample opportunity, need, and value in their study! The UB is no parable or metaphor as it clearly states for itself.



Then I found these thoughts from Bradly in UAI.


Bradly wrote:
I agree facts are not particularly useful when not utilized in conjunction with a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiritual world, the integration of our very being and place of being…and this requires the evolutionary assurances of faith and the revelatory assurance of truth to bring meaning to facts/knowledge.


Can we opine or interpret anything, facts included, without a reality based perspective, a unification and harmonization of both the material world and the spiriatual world etc. as you state above? Do the tens of thousands of facts in TUB stand alone?


How many persons have you tried to confuse here badly?

Louis


It is obvious both quotes are accurate enough and complimentary - not contradictory as implied...the first says that facts are accurate if factual (and those presented in the UB are, IMO, factual and presented as such); and the second says the value of facts depends upon one's ability to apply them to reality. This confuses you?

There are those readers/students of the UB who believe the text is presented as a metaphor/parable/secret code that requires interpretation and grand intellect to understand and explain (interpret). I think such an opinion is a direct contradiction of the UB itself, which does benefit by its study but speaks well enough for itself....it says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't. That's good enough for a tadpole like me! I claim no great knowledge, education, intellect, or power to teach any others....I am happy to let the UB speak for itself and claim no superiority. But I do try to reduce my direct contradictions of the text by my study of its content.

Glad you are reading along at UAI. Now that you are no longer allowed to participate there...for like here where you have been banished 5 times, you have been banished there. Which seems to bring you a sense of pride as you have bragged about it here....speaking of insincere.

So you think Jesus accidentally confounded his enemies but not intentionally? Hahahahaha....that's one so called interpretation! Which you then attribute the intent to confound to Satan and thusly compare Jesus to him? Said Jesus: "...while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing." It seems obvious that Jesus used parables to confound his enemies and did so intentionally. It seems you struggle to apply context to the teachings and actions of the Master in this and other regards as well....we are instructed to pay attention to his audience and the situation.

Just like facts... words are most relevant and meaningful in context with reality...rather than fantasy, fiction, falsehood, and personal prejudice and ignorance. Jesus provoked his enemies often and with effect. Do you think his end a surprise to him? Do you think him a victim? Who was in charge of his mission and its end do you think? You don't find him a provocateur? And a tactician and field marshal who frequently and intentionally confounded his enemies? And he had them!

As to:

"Did you not say the following in another thread just recently?

POPPYCOCK ALERT!!! Louis/toto/etc. still and also misunderstands THIS very elemental and foundational fact, despite making this claim and being corrected multiple times here. So is he stupid??!! Blind??!! Or does his agenda of distortion and defiance of the UB simply not allow his prejudice to acknowledge factual reality as clearly presented in the Revelation??!! What's up with that? Good Grief!

So you questioned whether I was stupid or just blind, with a question mark and an exclamation point. Which is it?'"

It is true that this is the third time you have made the same false claim contradicting the UB and each time of the same posted falsehood you have been corrected by the actual text. So why do you persist in the same contradiction and falsehood posting it over and over and over again? Again...context is everything...except to those for which it is nothing at all. So does such endless contradictions after prior corrections make one stupid or blind? Good question!!

Probably neither....more likely it is intentional and an agenda to confuse and confound your enemies...sincere students of the UB who claim the Revelation says what it says and mostly doesn't say what you claim it does!! Hahahaha....

You have proclaimed yourself wiser than Gabriel. And accused Michael's first born of great guilt and Lucifer innocent and misunderstood. You have claimed the UB portrays heavenly mercy and justice to be tainted by hearsay and gossip and anger and vengeance. Oh toto, you have claimed so much so contrary to the UB for so long...enough to be forced to change your name at least 7 times on multiple forums for your behavior and anger and bellicose barking and ankle biting and contradictions to the UB. Your motives and agenda are well known and demonstrated...and again so here and now...already. Didn't take long.

My only "angle" is to study the UB with other sincere students who feel no need to twist, distort, misrepresent, misstate, and torture the text of the UB to their own agenda and intentions and prejudice and pride. And those who hijack every topic with their own self important rhetoric and Mannyfestos of contradiction!

Now you pretend to play the victim? Hahahahahaha....that's a good one!! :roll: :biggrin: :wink: 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
It is obvious both quotes are accurate enough and complimentary - not contradictory as implied...the first says that facts are accurate if factual (and those presented in the UB are, IMO, factual and presented as such); and the second says the value of facts depends upon one's ability to apply them to reality. This confuses you?


Here you state that both quotes are accurate; that facts are accurate if factual. Then you state that you are the arbiter of what is factual because you are of the opinion that TUB is factual. This is a circular argument that allows you to present your opinions as fact because you are backed by TUB. This does not confuse me but it is certainly meant to confuse, as all circular arguments are intentioned.

You use facts from TUB then apply your opinion to back them up. You go round in circles. And then you say that the value of facts depends upon ones's ability to apply them to reality.

Then if this is true then the tens of thousands of facts in TUB that offer no need for one's opinions and interpretations, are devoid of value because you need thought to make them real in the first place. Otherwise, TUB can be read and studied by a computer, who has no opinion or a mind to interpret facts. It becomes a translation of words symbols into digital data.


fanofVan wrote:
There are those readers/students of the UB who believe the text is presented as a metaphor/parable/secret code that requires interpretation and grand intellect to understand and explain (interpret). I think such an opinion is a direct contradiction of the UB itself, which does benefit by its study but speaks well enough for itself....it says what it says and doesn't say what it doesn't.


TUB cannot speak for itself because it is not a person! What is reality to TUB? Does it speak of its experience? Without a person, it is but cellulose and ink on the shelf.


fanofVan wrote:
I claim no great knowledge, education, intellect, or power to teach any others....I am happy to let the UB speak for itself and claim no superiority. But I do try to reduce my direct contradictions of the text by my study of its content.


Oh yeah? But you claim to know that I am wrong, and stupid and blind. And then there is this claim:

fanofVan wrote:
In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.


Sounds like quite a resume. What teaching post are you applying to?


fanofVan wrote:
Glad you are reading along at UAI. Now that you are no longer allowed to participate there...for like here where you have been banished 5 times, you have been banished there. Which seems to bring you a sense of pride as you have bragged about it here....speaking of insincere.


No one enjoys being exposed as a hypocrite. The accuser of hypocrites often times gets banished, some even get killed.

fanofVan wrote:
So you think Jesus accidentally confounded his enemies but not intentionally?


No. You twist and contort words so stupidly, Bradly. I said what I think and I said that Jesus' intent was not to confound his enemies, yet those that intended harm against him were confounded because of the manner in which the parables taught. Nothing is accidental with the Lord but this had a side effect that came about by consequences of spiritual law, which was unavoidable.


fanofVan wrote:
Which you then attribute the intent to confound to Satan and thusly compare Jesus to him? Said Jesus: "...while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing."


Those that intend to harm will find themselves more confounded. This was the explanation that Jesus offered. He was not offering confusion or to confound his enemies, they found themselves as such because of the evil that filled their hearts.

fanofVan wrote:
It seems obvious that Jesus used parables to confound his enemies and did so intentionally. It seems you struggle to apply context to the teachings and actions of the Master in this and other regards as well....we are instructed to pay attention to his audience and the situation.



What you are saying is that, in your opinion, Jesus intended to confound his enemies and used parables to do this. Again, what happened to "love your enemies"? Did he not have the power to literally wipe them from existence? Does the Master need this leverage against his enemies? I fear that you missed the boat when it comes to understanding the Master if this is how you interpret his actions.

fanofVan wrote:
Jesus provoked his enemies often and with effect.


Yes, but provocation was not his intent. It was only the effect of the Gospel message on the those that took offense.


fanofVan wrote:
Do you think his end a surprise to him?


Probably not.


fanofVan wrote:
Do you think him a victim?


No. He is a savior, even to his enemies.


fanofVan wrote:
Who was in charge of his mission and its end do you think?


It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this.


fanofVan wrote:
You don't find him a provocateur?


Yes, but only by effect and not by intent.


fanofVan wrote:
And a tactician and field marshal who frequently and intentionally confounded his enemies? And he had them!


This person is at war and not at peace. Jesus is the Prince of Peace, not the Marshal of War!


fanofVan wrote:
It is true that this is the third time you have made the same false claim


Tell me exactly the nature of my false claim. Since I have made it no less than three times you should have it well studied and committed to memory.


Louis


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So, you have been banished multiple times from multiple UB study group sites because of your wisdom and righteousness? You think of yourself as a martyr in your agenda of disruption and domination? And Gabriel remains on your list of hypocrites and miscreants I assume? And poor misunderstood Lucifer whom you champion at every opportunity...another victim, like you, merely pointing out the hypocrisy of others, banished from the group? Too bad for him he could not merely change his name over and over to sneak back for another try at promoting himself and his own MannyFesto as you have so frequently!

Well....your perspective is yours...and mine is mine...and the each to their own. My support and recognition of all the many different ways to gather, socialize, learn, teach, and study is neither a recommendation to others nor any form of job application...hahahaha....a weird call....I am happy to remain and only qualified to be a student among students. I am but stating the obvious - there are lots of ways to study, learn, and teach...you also began by saying there are many ways to study and learn but then you decided to declare certain forms ill advised...any form where one might teach another or develop study plans or curriculums or any teaching/learning format...an odd declaration IMO. But then you opined that the UB cannot teach anything because it is not a person. So the Revelation cannot teach and persons should not teach? A perplexing point of view.

Our views of Jesus offer additional opportunity for diversity of opinion. While Jesus was the Prince of Peace, he is also quoted as saying we should think not that he came to deliver peace. And he warned those who taught the gospel - interesting, people teaching and preaching the gospel (the 4th ER) as instructed by the Master - that their's would not be an easy or peaceful role in time to come. And that courage and tenacity would be required of those who championed truth in time to come. The transformation of the person requires conflict as does the transformation of a world.

Jesus had enemies. As you say, it was the gospel itself that created them. The enemies of truth hoped to silence the gospel of truth by silencing the messenger who delivered the good news. They attempted much trickery and entrapment and lies and false accusations and rumors and innuendo and dogged his heels and disrupted his work as best they could, to finally settle on a deceptive conspiracy of murder to end his life after a far more brazen attempt not long before. Jesus mounted a brilliant offensive movement and strategically brilliant maneuvers to give time and life to his ministry and the gospel of good news he brought to the worlds of Nebadon upon our own little rock in time and space. His enemies would thrust and Jesus would parry, they would flank and he would advance, they would assault and he would retreat, they would stew and plot while he would rest, train, and gather strength.

This was a war. One with many battles. And Jesus won every battle...and the war. Was it man's will that won? An odd perspective to me. I think the Master's life was to demonstrate his faith in God's will, not man's! I think the Master came to demonstrate his own absolute confidence and faith in the WAY of the Father and his love and tender, paternal nature! I think the UB teaches/says that the Master lived to show all others that mortal death has no hold on the children of God and that death is not to be feared! I think we are taught that the believer might remain calm and poised and joyful and assured within the greatest of material strife and suffering and calamity!

You claim above: "It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this."


Preposterous! The will of man was allowed to murder the Son of God and Creator Son of Nebadon???!! Really?! This was God's will??!! You think so?

It was not the "will of man" which prevailed nor it that murdered the Master....it was only the will of a few conspirators who manipulated a politician and a mob to have their way in the end....and that way was well known to the Master as he entered the city on that fateful Palm Sunday...to lay down his own life to take it up again. That's how I see the material death of Jesus. Not the will of man by any definition - it was the will of Jesus dedicated to the will of God on display to all of Nebadon and Paradise and everywhere in between...he unafraid and unassailable by falsehood, doubt, OR the will of man.

From the Mount of Transfiguration to the Cross, Jesus was certainly in charge of every moment and event of his ministry and its conclusion. He well knew the enemy and their agenda and methods arrayed against him. He challenged them directly and wisely applied tactics, timing, and movements which frustrated and infuriated them. And then he chose to calmly enter the very den of his enemies fully aware of his end to come....as he warned his Apostles for months, then weeks, then days, and finally in the hours before his life was taken. Murder? Yes. A surprise? No. Man's will prevailed? Hardly. Man did not murder Jesus. Neither did the Jews or the Romans. The guilt is only upon the few individuals who so acted. The glory of resurrection and the Gospel and absolute faith and love are the story of the Master and the triumph of his will dedicated to Father's. Glorious!!

Thanks toto...for this teaching moment you have offered. For by your claims and opinions have I been thrust into study and contemplation and reflection on the meanings of the Master's final bestowal. We may not agree on much but still do you teach me....by lectern or otherwise hardly matters I think. Questions and disagreements are also effective to those who truly seek to learn.

8)

No mortal then or since was as wise and innocent as the Master but we are admonished to seek such graciousness and wisdom...to actually attack evil and sin with kindness and wisdom in such a way as to overwhelm and disarm evil and to transform it by the power of love. Evidently, you and I have much yet to learn!! But perhaps we grow still and might yet blossom so?

And the Master said:

178:1.14 (1931.5) You are not to be passive mystics or colorless ascetics; you should not become dreamers and drifters, supinely trusting in a fictitious Providence to provide even the necessities of life. You are indeed to be gentle in your dealings with erring mortals, patient in your intercourse with ignorant men, and forbearing under provocation; but you are also to be valiant in defense of righteousness, mighty in the promulgation of truth, and aggressive in the preaching of this gospel of the kingdom, even to the ends of the earth.

178:1.15 (1931.6) This gospel of the kingdom is a living truth. I have told you it is like the leaven in the dough, like the grain of mustard seed; and now I declare that it is like the seed of the living being, which, from generation to generation, while it remains the same living seed, unfailingly unfolds itself in new manifestations and grows acceptably in channels of new adaptation to the peculiar needs and conditions of each successive generation. The revelation I have made to you is a living revelation, and I desire that it shall bear appropriate fruits in each individual and in each generation in accordance with the laws of spiritual growth, increase, and adaptative development. From generation to generation this gospel must show increasing vitality and exhibit greater depth of spiritual power. It must not be permitted to become merely a sacred memory, a mere tradition about me and the times in which we now live.

178:1.16 (1932.1) And forget not: We have made no direct attack upon the persons or upon the authority of those who sit in Moses’ seat; we only offered them the new light, which they have so vigorously rejected. We have assailed them only by the denunciation of their spiritual disloyalty to the very truths which they profess to teach and safeguard. We clashed with these established leaders and recognized rulers only when they threw themselves directly in the way of the preaching of the gospel of the kingdom to the sons of men. And even now, it is not we who assail them, but they who seek our destruction. Do not forget that you are commissioned to go forth preaching only the good news. You are not to attack the old ways; you are skillfully to put the leaven of new truth in the midst of the old beliefs. Let the Spirit of Truth do his own work. Let controversy come only when they who despise the truth force it upon you. But when the willful unbeliever attacks you, do not hesitate to stand in vigorous defense of the truth which has saved and sanctified you.

178:1.17 (1932.2) Throughout the vicissitudes of life, remember always to love one another. Do not strive with men, even with unbelievers. Show mercy even to those who despitefully abuse you. Show yourselves to be loyal citizens, upright artisans, praiseworthy neighbors, devoted kinsmen, understanding parents, and sincere believers in the brotherhood of the Father’s kingdom. And my spirit shall be upon you, now and even to the end of the world.

Me here: So much yet to learn for this tadpole of time! I am so grateful for the gifts of revelation and time to learn the better how to express my faith and assurance of our destiny in this friendly universe! Blessings to all who believe and seek and grow and serve. Thank you.

:wink: 8)


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toto wrote:
And then there is this claim:

fanofVan wrote:
In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.


Sounds like quite a resume. What teaching post are you applying to?

Louis


An odd response and provocation don't you think? This is merely a recital of some the many forms of contact, association, study, and learning I have shared with other students...as a student myself. Not as organizer or teacher. The point is to further support your own contention when you said: "The question thus remains as to HOW the Revelation should be studied. There are many study techniques as you know. The are many approaches to teaching as well. The goal of study is to learn, so now we must think in terms of theories of education."

Indeed so!! And thus my supporting comments on my own experience of study. I only hoped to encourage others to engage in learning by multiple ways and opportunities by the many forms of socialization and study that are available in the movement and student body today!!

I did not require nor criticize any format but merely acknowledged that different forms of study and learning appeal to different people differently. You find this prideful? Interesting....and entirely weird.

I would say more about the topic of conflict and its value to the ascenders of time as presented in the UB. There are those who find conflict disagreeable and something to avoid and will not participate in that which might include any form of confrontation, disagreement, defense, or interactions which bring discomfort....rather than to embrace conflict as an opportunity to discover, learn, grow, and benefit therefrom. Jesus is a great example of the many forms of conflict the mind faces in its spiritual journey and the mortal person in the material world.

We are advised/taught that the TA and the angels have no interest in a life of ease and lack of conflict for their charges and that the edges of conflict and vicissitudes of life are not avoided by the spiritizing life of the faithful believer! Jesus had conflict with his own earthly parents and neighbor children and community leaders. He had to forgo his own plans when his earthly father perished by accident and become father/brother/son and bread winner and household manager. He had emotional conflicts and uncertainties and doubts as to how best to proceed at many an intersection of choice and decision. And his ministry was one within immense conflict and suffering requiring great faith and strength of character amidst all conflict and suffering.

Life is not easy. Transformation is not easy. Transferring the seat of our identity from the temporal to the eternal is not easy. It is not intended nor designed to be easy. Those who seek comfort and avoid conflict are not in harmony with the reality of such ascending transcendence. One learns and acquires experiential wisdom by doing, not by avoiding.

52:6.1 [Part II]
The bestowal Son is the Prince of Peace. He arrives with the message, "Peace on earth and good will among men." On normal worlds this is a dispensation of world-wide peace; the nations no more learn war. But such salutary influences did not attend the coming of your bestowal Son, Christ Michael. Urantia is not proceeding in the normal order. Your world is out of step in the planetary procession. Your Master, when on earth, warned his disciples that his advent would not bring the usual reign of peace on Urantia. He distinctly told them that there would be "wars and rumors of wars," and that nation would rise against nation. At another time he said, "Think not that I have come to bring peace upon earth."

160:5.10 [Part IV]
I see in the teachings of Jesus, religion at its best. This gospel enables us to seek for the true God and to find him. But are we willing to pay the price of this entrance into the kingdom of heaven? Are we willing to be born again? to be remade? Are we willing to be subject to this terrible and testing process of self-destruction and soul reconstruction? Has not the Master said: "Whoso would save his life must lose it. Think not that I have come to bring peace but rather a soul struggle"? True, after we pay the price of dedication to the Father's will, we do experience great peace provided we continue to walk in these spiritual paths of consecrated living.

Me here: We are to find peace within....not expect peace in life itself! Jesus said we as believers should remain assured, poised, and happy even when we are abused, reviled, tormented, tortured, assailed, killed or suffering from whatever source or reason...the peace we are to find is internal and in relationship to the Spirit. We will not find it in this world in this temporal life...indeed, the Master warned a life of ease is a danger to our progress. What is the "peace" of Jesus?

181:1.10 (1955.1) The peace of Jesus is, then, the peace and assurance of a son who fully believes that his career for time and eternity is safely and wholly in the care and keeping of an all-wise, all-loving, and all-powerful spirit Father. And this is, indeed, a peace which passes the understanding of mortal mind, but which can be enjoyed to the full by the believing human heart.

(1916.2) 176:3.2 “And even you, Thomas, fail to comprehend what I have been saying. Have I not all this time taught you that your connection with the kingdom is spiritual and individual, wholly a matter of personal experience in the spirit by the faith-realization that you are a son of God? What more shall I say? The downfall of nations, the crash of empires, the destruction of the unbelieving Jews, the end of an age, even the end of the world, what have these things to do with one who believes this gospel, and who has hid his life in the surety of the eternal kingdom? You who are God-knowing and gospel-believing have already received the assurances of eternal life. Since your lives have been lived in the spirit and for the Father, nothing can be of serious concern to you. Kingdom builders, the accredited citizens of the heavenly worlds, are not to be disturbed by temporal upheavals or perturbed by terrestrial cataclysms. What does it matter to you who believe this gospel of the kingdom if nations overturn, the age ends, or all things visible crash, since you know that your life is the gift of the Son, and that it is eternally secure in the Father? Having lived the temporal life by faith and having yielded the fruits of the spirit as the righteousness of loving service for your fellows, you can confidently look forward to the next step in the eternal career with the same survival faith that has carried you through your first and earthly adventure in sonship with God.

And Jesus said:

178:1.10 (1931.1) Under the soon-coming persecutions by those who hate this gospel of joy and liberty, you will thrive and the kingdom will prosper. But you will stand in grave danger in subsequent times when most men will speak well of kingdom believers and many in high places nominally accept the gospel of the heavenly kingdom. Learn to be faithful to the kingdom even in times of peace and prosperity. Tempt not the angels of your supervision to lead you in troublous ways as a loving discipline designed to save your ease-drifting souls.

Me here: The angels might lead us into troublous ways as a loving discipline to save our ease-seeking and ease-drifting souls??!! You bet they will....and do! As will and does the TA too!

113:4.3 (1245.3) Seraphim function as teachers of men by guiding the footsteps of the human personality into paths of new and progressive experiences. To accept the guidance of a seraphim rarely means attaining a life of ease. In following this leading you are sure to encounter, and if you have the courage, to traverse, the rugged hills of moral choosing and spiritual progress.

108:5.5 (1191.6) The Mystery Monitors are not thought helpers; they are thought adjusters. They labor with the material mind for the purpose of constructing, by adjustment and spiritualization, a new mind for the new worlds and the new name of your future career. Their mission chiefly concerns the future life, not this life. They are called heavenly helpers, not earthly helpers. They are not interested in making the mortal career easy; rather are they concerned in making your life reasonably difficult and rugged, so that decisions will be stimulated and multiplied. The presence of a great Thought Adjuster does not bestow ease of living and freedom from strenuous thinking, but such a divine gift should confer a sublime peace of mind and a superb tranquillity of spirit.



48:5.8 (551.3) One of the purposes of the morontia career is to effect the permanent eradication from the mortal survivors of such animal vestigial traits as procrastination, equivocation, insincerity, problem avoidance, unfairness, and ease seeking. The mansonia life early teaches the young morontia pupils that postponement is in no sense avoidance. After the life in the flesh, time is no longer available as a technique of dodging situations or of circumventing disagreeable obligations.

181:1.2 (1953.4) “When I have returned to live in you and work through you, I can the better lead you on through this life and guide you through the many abodes in the future life in the heaven of heavens. Life in the Father’s eternal creation is not an endless rest of idleness and selfish ease but rather a ceaseless progression in grace, truth, and glory....



And on conflict:

100:4.1 [Part III]
Religious living is devoted living, and devoted living is creative living, original and spontaneous. New religious insights arise out of conflicts which initiate the choosing of new and better reaction habits in the place of older and inferior reaction patterns. New meanings only emerge amid conflict; and conflict persists only in the face of refusal to espouse the higher values connoted in superior meanings.

100:4.2 [Part III]
Religious perplexities are inevitable; there can be no growth without psychic conflict and spiritual agitation. The organization of a philosophic standard of living entails considerable commotion in the philosophic realms of the mind. Loyalties are not exercised in behalf of the great, the good, the true, and the noble without a struggle. Effort is attendant upon clarification of spiritual vision and enhancement of cosmic insight. And the human intellect protests against being weaned from subsisting upon the nonspiritual energies of temporal existence. The slothful animal mind rebels at the effort required to wrestle with cosmic problem solving.

100:5.2 [Part III]
The progression of religious growth leads from stagnation through conflict to co-ordination, from insecurity to undoubting faith, from confusion of cosmic consciousness to unification of personality, from the temporal objective to the eternal, from the bondage of fear to the liberty of divine sonship.

Me here: And finally, for now, the poison of prejudice and the inability of some to learn by fact and knowledge as they cling to misconceptions and preconceptions which contradict reality.

(1459.4) 132:3.4 Revealed truth, personally discovered truth, is the supreme delight of the human soul; it is the joint creation of the material mind and the indwelling spirit. The eternal salvation of this truth-discerning and beauty-loving soul is assured by that hunger and thirst for goodness which leads this mortal to develop a singleness of purpose to do the Father’s will, to find God and to become like him. There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflict between knowledge and human beliefs, beliefs colored with prejudice, distorted by fear, and dominated by the dread of facing new facts of material discovery or spiritual progress.


8) :wink:


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toto wrote:


It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this.

Louis


This is too fascinating a declaration to not consider further!

Let's begin by verifying the purpose of Michael's 7th and final bestowal:

120:1.1 (1325.3) “My Creator brother, I am about to witness your seventh and final universe bestowal. Most faithfully and perfectly have you executed the six previous commissions, and I entertain no thought but that you will be equally triumphant on this, your terminal sovereignty bestowal. Heretofore you have appeared on your bestowal spheres as a fully developed being of the order of your choosing. Now you are about to appear upon Urantia, the disordered and disturbed planet of your choice, not as a fully developed mortal, but as a helpless babe. This, my comrade, will be a new and untried experience for you. You are about to pay the full price of bestowal and to experience the complete enlightenment of the incarnation of a Creator in the likeness of a creature.

120:1.2 (1325.4) “Throughout each of your former bestowals you have voluntarily chosen to subject yourself to the will of the three Paradise Deities and their divine interassociations. Of the seven phases of the will of the Supreme you have in your previous bestowals been subject to all but the personal will of your Paradise Father. Now that you have elected to be wholly subject to your Father’s will throughout your seventh bestowal, I, as the personal representative of our Father, assume the unqualified jurisdiction of your universe for the time of your incarnation.

120:1.3 (1325.5) “In entering upon the Urantia bestowal, you have voluntarily divested yourself of all extraplanetary support and special assistance such as might be rendered by any creature of your own creation. As your created sons of Nebadon are wholly dependent upon you for safe conduct throughout their universe careers, so now must you become wholly and unreservedly dependent upon your Paradise Father for safe conduct throughout the unrevealed vicissitudes of your ensuing mortal career. And when you shall have finished this bestowal experience, you will know in very truth the full meaning and the rich significance of that faith-trust which you so unvaryingly require all your creatures to master as a part of their intimate relationship with you as their local universe Creator and Father.

120:1.4 (1326.1) “Throughout your Urantia bestowal you need be concerned with but one thing, the unbroken communion between you and your Paradise Father; and it will be by the perfection of such a relationship that the world of your bestowal, even all the universe of your creation, will behold a new and more understandable revelation of your Father and my Father, the Universal Father of all. Your concern, therefore, has only to do with your personal life on Urantia. I will be fully and efficiently responsible for the security and unbroken administration of your universe from the moment of your voluntary relinquishment of authority until you return to us as Universe Sovereign, confirmed by Paradise, and receive back from my hands, not the vicegerent authority which you now surrender to me, but, instead, the supreme power over, and jurisdiction of, your universe.

120:4.4 (1331.4) Never lose sight of the fact that the supreme spiritual purpose of the Michael bestowal was to enhance the revelation of God.

Me here: So near the end, did Jesus know of what was to come? Could he have averted or avoided the result of human betrayal and the hopes of his enemies? Yes, indeed. To be sure, only students of TUB might know this fact and truth for certain!! It was NOT God's will that Jesus be betrayed or hated by any, or put on public trial and beaten, and turned over to the Romans for cruxifiction....what a claim!! Jesus was no sacrifice we are taught by the UB. God requires none to suffer or die for him or his will. God does not relinquish his will to others. Jesus came to "enhance the revelation of God" and his supreme love and power and purpose and plan....that of eternal life in a friendly universe.

NO.....it is obvious that the end of Jesus life was known to him and allowed by him...and was so allowed to demonstrate his assurance of the love of Father and to demonstrate to a universe the power of the spirit over the material. His mortal life must come to an end. He has chosen and lived this public ministry of faith and leadership. He has assembled those who must carry on after his departure. He has enemies of his own, his message, and his followers now. What shall he do? What is the way forward to the end of his mission and bestowal?

Jesus has told them this before but now it is time for the Farewell:

180:0.3 (1944.3) “The time has now come for the Son of Man to be glorified, and the Father shall be glorified in me. My friends, I am to be with you only a little longer. Soon you will seek for me, but you will not find me, for I am going to a place to which you cannot, at this time, come. But when you have finished your work on earth as I have now finished mine, you shall then come to me even as I now prepare to go to my Father. In just a short time I am going to leave you, you will see me no more on earth, but you shall all see me in the age to come when you ascend to the kingdom which my Father has given to me.”

180:4.2 (1948.3) “In just a few hours the world will see me no more; but you will continue to know me in your hearts even until I send you this new teacher, the Spirit of Truth. As I have lived with you in person, then shall I live in you; I shall be one with your personal experience in the spirit kingdom. And when this has come to pass, you shall surely know that I am in the Father, and that, while your life is hid with the Father in me, I am also in you. I have loved the Father and have kept his word; you have loved me, and you will keep my word. As my Father has given me of his spirit, so will I give you of my spirit. And this Spirit of Truth which I will bestow upon you shall guide and comfort you and shall eventually lead you into all truth.

180:4.3 (1948.4) “I am telling you these things while I am still with you that you may be the better prepared to endure those trials which are even now right upon us. And when this new day comes, you will be indwelt by the Son as well as by the Father. And these gifts of heaven will ever work the one with the other even as the Father and I have wrought on earth and before your very eyes as one person, the Son of Man. And this spirit friend will bring to your remembrance everything I have taught you.”

180:6.2 (1951.3) “Now that I am leaving you, seeing that the hour has come when I am about to go to the Father, I am surprised that none of you have asked me, Why do you leave us? Nevertheless, I know that you ask such questions in your hearts. I will speak to you plainly, as one friend to another. It is really profitable for you that I go away. If I go not away, the new teacher cannot come into your hearts. I must be divested of this mortal body and be restored to my place on high before I can send this spirit teacher to live in your souls and lead your spirits into the truth. And when my spirit comes to indwell you, he will illuminate the difference between sin and righteousness and will enable you to judge wisely in your hearts concerning them.

181:1.1 (1953.3) When the eleven had taken their seats, Jesus stood and addressed them: “As long as I am with you in the flesh, I can be but one individual in your midst or in the entire world. But when I have been delivered from this investment of mortal nature, I will be able to return as a spirit indweller of each of you and of all other believers in this gospel of the kingdom. In this way the Son of Man will become a spiritual incarnation in the souls of all true believers.

182:3.1 (1968.2) After all was still and quiet about the camp, Jesus, taking Peter, James, and John, went a short way up a near-by ravine where he had often before gone to pray and commune. The three apostles could not help recognizing that he was grievously oppressed; never before had they observed their Master to be so heavy-laden and sorrowful. When they arrived at the place of his devotions, he bade the three sit down and watch with him while he went off about a stone’s throw to pray. And when he had fallen down on his face, he prayed: “My Father, I came into this world to do your will, and so have I. I know that the hour has come to lay down this life in the flesh, and I do not shrink therefrom, but I would know that it is your will that I drink this cup. Send me the assurance that I will please you in my death even as I have in my life.”

182:3.2 (1968.3) The Master remained in a prayerful attitude for a few moments, and then, going over to the three apostles, he found them sound asleep, for their eyes were heavy and they could not remain awake. As Jesus awoke them, he said: “What! can you not watch with me even for one hour? Cannot you see that my soul is exceedingly sorrowful, even to death, and that I crave your companionship?” After the three had aroused from their slumber, the Master again went apart by himself and, falling down on the ground, again prayed: “Father, I know it is possible to avoid this cup — all things are possible with you — but I have come to do your will, and while this is a bitter cup, I would drink it if it is your will.” And when he had thus prayed, a mighty angel came down by his side and, speaking to him, touched him and strengthened him.

182:3.3 (1968.4) When Jesus returned to speak with the three apostles, he again found them fast asleep. He awakened them, saying: “In such an hour I need that you should watch and pray with me — all the more do you need to pray that you enter not into temptation — wherefore do you fall asleep when I leave you?”

182:3.4 (1968.5) And then, for a third time, the Master withdrew and prayed: “Father, you see my sleeping apostles; have mercy upon them. The spirit is indeed willing, but the flesh is weak. And now, O Father, if this cup may not pass, then would I drink it. Not my will, but yours, be done.” And when he had finished praying, he lay for a moment prostrate on the ground. When he arose and went back to his apostles, once more he found them asleep. He surveyed them and, with a pitying gesture, tenderly said: “Sleep on now and take your rest; the time of decision is past. The hour is now upon us wherein the Son of Man will be betrayed into the hands of his enemies.” As he reached down to shake them that he might awaken them, he said: “Arise, let us be going back to the camp, for, behold, he who betrays me is at hand, and the hour has come when my flock shall be scattered. But I have already told you about these things.”

Me here: We must now recall the Great Decisions immortalized in Paper 136 - that no celestial powers or celestial personalities would be used to overcome or overwhelm the material and temporal realities of his life in the flesh, He was determined to suffer what mortals suffer and endure what we endure to demonstrate that assurance of faith and truth that all of us may know and to both live and die as a revelation of God's love and power and our eternal natures. NO, it was not mortal will or any mortal's will that ended the life of Jesus and God did not submit his will to any man's either. Jesus lived and died in his trusting embrace of God's will....that the Spirit dominate the material and the temporal bow to the immortal by faith and by love....or so I understand the UB to teach!

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fanofVan wrote:
So, you have been banished multiple times from multiple UB study group sites because of your wisdom and righteousness?


No. Actually, it was because I failed to follow the rules of the Forum in the eyes of the administrators.


fanofVan wrote:
And Gabriel remains on your list of hypocrites and miscreants I assume? A


No. Actually, I pointed out that in prosecuting Lucifer, Gabriel went against the wisdom of those that recommended he lay off. His father, Michael, said to all quite clearly to that we are to love our enemies and judge not, lest we be judged. Michael is not a war monger and the war in heaven was something he stayed out of, as did The Father in Paradise.


fanofVan wrote:
So the Revelation cannot teach and persons should not teach? A perplexing point of view.


You should not be perplexed. Bonita explained this to you. She taught you that the Revelation cannot hold meaning without the person and the ministering Spirits. And the person cannot learn without the will to learn. Are you willing?


fanofVan wrote:
While Jesus was the Prince of Peace, he is also quoted as saying we should think not that he came to deliver peace.


Yes, but neither was he here to deliver war. He planted the mustard seed of peace, not the seeds of war.


fanofVan wrote:
Jesus mounted a brilliant offensive movement and strategically brilliant maneuvers to give time and life to his ministry and the gospel of good news he brought to the worlds of Nebadon upon our own little rock in time and space.


Do you really think that Jesus went on the offensive? He was not even to show defensiveness. Remember "turn the other cheek"?


fanofVan wrote:
You claim above: "It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this."


Preposterous! The will of man was allowed to murder the Son of God and Creator Son of Nebadon???!! Really?! This was God's will??!! You think so?

It was not the "will of man" which prevailed nor it that murdered the Master....it was only the will of a few conspirators who manipulated a politician and a mob to have their way in the end..



Are these "few conspirators" not men of will?


183:1.1 There is great danger of misunderstanding the meaning of numerous sayings and many events associated with the termination of the Master's career in the flesh. The cruel treatment of Jesus by the ignorant servants and the calloused soldiers, the unfair conduct of his trials, and the unfeeling attitude of the professed religious leaders, must not be confused with the fact that Jesus, in patiently submitting to all this suffering and humiliation, was truly doing the will of the Father in Paradise. It was, indeed and in truth, the will of the Father that his Son should drink to the full the cup of mortal experience, from birth to death, but the Father in heaven had nothing whatever to do with instigating the barbarous behavior of those supposedly civilized human beings who so brutally tortured the Master and so horribly heaped successive indignities upon his nonresisting person. These inhuman and shocking experiences which Jesus was called upon to endure in the final hours of his mortal life were not in any sense a part of the divine will of the Father, which his human nature had so triumphantly pledged to carry out at the time of the final surrender of man to God as signified in the threefold prayer which he indited in the garden while his weary apostles slept the sleep of physical exhaustion.

183:1.2 The Father in heaven desired the bestowal Son to finish his earth career naturally, just as all mortals must finish up their lives on earth and in the flesh. Ordinary men and women cannot expect to have their last hours on earth and the supervening episode of death made easy by a special dispensation. Accordingly, Jesus elected to lay down his life in the flesh in the manner which was in keeping with the outworking of natural events, and he steadfastly refused to extricate himself from the cruel clutches of a wicked conspiracy of inhuman events which swept on with horrible certainty toward his unbelievable humiliation and ignominious death. And every bit of all this astounding manifestation of hatred and this unprecedented demonstration of cruelty [b]was the work of evil men and wicked mortals.
[/b] God in heaven did not will it, neither did the archenemies of Jesus dictate it, though they did much to insure that unthinking and evil mortals would thus reject the bestowal Son. Even the father of sin turned his face away from the excruciating horror of the scene of the crucifixion.



fanofVan wrote:
Thanks toto...for this teaching moment you have offered. For by your claims and opinions have I been thrust into study and contemplation and reflection on the meanings of the Master's final bestowal. We may not agree on much but still do you teach me....by lectern or otherwise hardly matters I think. Questions and disagreements are also effective to those who truly seek to learn.


I learn from you as well, Bradly.


fanofVan wrote:
toto wrote:
And then there is this claim:

fanofVan wrote:
In my 40+ years of study, I have enjoyed many forms and benefitted from them all....including insightful presentations from lecturns at conferences, intimate discussions at local study groups, break out panels and group roundtable discussions at conferences, using written study materials and secondary works like the Paramony and Concordex and now the digital search engines and other topical guides, formal classes within formal curriculum at UBIS where students learn by discussion of thoughtful and thought provoking questions and not by lecture or lesson, and then of course, and most enjoyably to me is the learning by consideration of the questions and debates and discussions by other students here and other internet discussion and study group sites. And then there is the socialization with other readers over the decades at study groups, conferences big and small, Jesus Birthday gatherings and celebrations, and here and many other places and formats....as we are instructed that association with other religionists is good for us on many levels and in many ways.


Sounds like quite a resume. What teaching post are you applying to?

Louis


An odd response and provocation don't you think?


No, not really. Just pointing out an apparent prideful posture of learnedness and self proclaimed stature.


fanofVan wrote:
I did not require nor criticize any format but merely acknowledged that different forms of study and learning appeal to different people differently. You find this prideful? Interesting....and entirely weird.


What is interesting is that I never mentioned "prideful" until you brought it up here all by yourself. Is it prideful? Only you can decide.


fanofVan wrote:
Me here: The angels might lead us into troublous ways as a loving discipline to save our ease-seeking and ease-drifting souls??!! You bet they will....and do! As will and does the TA too!


The angel will not lead us into trouble. The quote states, "Tempt not the angles...". This is very different and I disagree with your "Me here" conclusion. The TA certainly does not lead us to trouble for the sake of toughening us up. That is horrible to say! The TA is a Father fragment and this is antithetical to the nature of the Divine Father. We may be permitted to stumble and fall, but we are not tripped nor pushed down by loving spirits.


fanofVan wrote:
NO, it was not mortal will or any mortal's will that ended the life of Jesus and God did not submit his will to any man's either. Jesus lived and died in his trusting embrace of God's will....that the Spirit dominate the material and the temporal bow to the immortal by faith and by love....or so I understand the UB to teach!



183:1.2 "God in heaven did not will it"

Some "will" was in play as to the cruel way of the death of Jesus. It must certainly have been man's will. And it was God's will to permit it, just as He permits evil to exist in general, but is not the source of it.

Please remember that Jesus is a twofold personality, man and divine. Both wills were at play and the human will submitted fully to the will of God. Michael IS the Will of God.


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I believe that by failing "to follow forum rules" you mean a persistent tendency to call other students hypocrites, idolaters, liars, and worse while professing and declaring your MannyFesto of doubts, suspicions, and paranoia regarding the rebellion. You claim some UB authors to be more truthful and some less and claim that heaven is subject to injustice, rumor, hearsay, etc. These are some of the reasons for your repeated dismissals and not some technicality toto/Manny/loucol/JohnnyBones/Louis/etc./etc.

Here again you proclaim the rebellion and war in heaven the fault of Gabriel and his lack of wisdom and defiance of advice (all falsehoods in direct contradiction of the UB as demonstrated now countless times in dozens of topics here). Lucifer's Manifesto was misunderstood? Brought an overreaction? Demonstrates a lack of free will in heaven? Was persecuted by vengeful and gossipy and unwise rulers? By Michael choosing to remain aloof and allow the system of rulers and leadership to functionally respond to another system rebellion, then all those so charged with response did so incorrectly and unwisely? According to you and your greater wisdom?

Yes...this is a well worn path down the rabbit hole to crazy town...MannysFesto! Jesus was no pacifist and did not recommend or teach or practice any form of it...he was an activist! And Gabriel acted positively and with great patience and wisdom as the UB clearly states. And Lucifer defied God and Michael and all rulers and creators and Deity and Divinity and brought chaos. Gabriel was not and is not in charge of adjudication as is clearly stated...his only responsibility was to bring objection and begin process as Michael's representative and most trusted person in all of Nebadon, one who represents his will in all matters, including this one, as the UB clearly and redundantly states.

Your accusations against Gabriel and defense of Lucifer is a recurring and tiresome presentation by many names here and elsewhere....and a telling portrayal of your mind and inner fears regarding injustice and unfairness in this universe.

Perhaps we should study the topic of "reflectivity and reflection" to consider the irrationality of your claims and MannysFesto?

Who knows what when and to what degree of certainty and how does God and whomever he chooses to share it with instantly and completely know everything everywhere always and instantly and how are such records of fact kept and utilized....as in the case of Lucifer's rebellion and treachery as a traitor to truth, life, love, Michael, and God?

https://urantia-association.org/search/ ... t%5B%5D=-1

Would you be surprised to learn that Gabriel has access to such records? As do the Ancients and all other rulers and administrators in all of time and space? That hearsay is an impossibility in heaven? As is injustice and unfairness in all matters....especially rebellion, iniquity, sin, and evil? We are taught that justice, fairness, mercy, kindness, patience, and love may be assumed as absolutes in every regard and for all beings uniformly and equally and always and without exception....a complete contradiction to the darkness and foulness of MannysFesto....which has plagued us here for many years under many names, if all from the same mind! A defender and champion of Lucifer, Satan, and the Devil.

That is the real reason for your dismissal multiple times at multiple places under multiple names....just to be clear.

Your contrast to the facts and universe reality presented in the UB and your contradictions to its teachings provide opportunity to learn better what is within the Papers for students to learn and utilize in the philosophy of living....we are to find assurance and learn to trust and to be happy in this friendly universe as pilgrims of time - not be doubtful, suspicious, and paranoid about the unfairness and injustice in heaven and to accuse Michael's most trusted and beloved first born child and Michael's system and created rulers of the foulness and immaturities and evils of the rebels!! Such dark views so eagerly shared. So endlessly too.

Do you have your next name picked out yet there Ankle Biter? For those interested, a link to one of the MannysFesto diatribes:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=5177


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I've been thinking about the peculiar claim that human will supersedes or can supersede God's will or the will of the Creator Son.

toto/Manny/JohnnyBones/loucol/Louis said: " "It was God's will that man's will be done on Earth on this mission. Not even Jesus could resist this."

I have concluded this is both true and false...or can be conditionally true. Hmmmm......

We are told that God gifts all beings personality, mind, and free will....and by these gifts or endowments we are each uniquely personalized and differentiated one from another in experience and perspective in time....the sequential experience of volitional being and becoming.

So...since all beings have free will, then whose free will is dominate and whose is submissive? That depends I think. Please be advised: the following is merely my opinion and presupposes the certainty of error and misunderstanding. But I look forward to the thoughts of others and some text to come to share a better understanding to come!

We are taught that God's will rules the universe of universes and that it is God's will that his will be manifested in time and space by the free will experiential wisdom of those beings created by Deity and the beings created by those beings created by Deity and the beings created by those beings and those beings born by evolutionary beings and endowed by the Spirits and given the gifts of personality, mind, and free will....and finally there are the beings co-created by material born beings upon fusion with a God Fragment (whether Father, Mother, or Son Fused). A familiar chain illustrating this line might include: Deity; Paradise Sons; Local Universe Beings; Midwayers; Mortals; Creatue Trinitized Beings.

Every creature at every level of being and existence has free will! We know that such a fact of reality delivers the potential for and result of conflict...the clash of free will in disagreement. Such disagreement takes many forms depending on the level of free will being and the amount of error and self importance within the disagreement.

We also know that no being - including Deity itself - has the right to interfere with the free will of another - not by power or domination or wit or charm or any other device. Free will is absolute.

Until its not. Wisdom, truth, experience, mota, reality awareness, love...and motives, intentions, priorities, and decisions based on loving service to others minimizes and mostly eliminates the negative potentials within disagreements of personal free will...and those which remain are most peaceably and civilly arbitrated by a patient, kind, and loving process most willingly engaged by all parties. But that is only MOST and in the celestial and morontial realms of time and space.

The UB provides 3 clear examples of the exceptions to this norm....rebellion, default, and humanity!! Evidently, even celestials (up to a certain level of being) can either fail in their ministry and duties or they can, potentially, become self important and self deluded sufficiently to actually abandon and rebel against reality itself. Even beings created by Deity, such as Creator Sons, learn by experience and gain wisdom and the potential for error exists in the perfecting goals and process of experience. Perfection is a goal for all beings in time and space as I understand it. None in time and space are created as perfect...this is the point and purpose of time and space....the realization of potentials and the creation of more potential by the perfecting process of experience by free will enjoyed by personality with mind and time!

We know Lucifer's folly (as an example of actual rebellion) was intended to destroy the true liberty of free will for self determination by the love of and service to others by and for the false liberty of free will for the expression of self importance by the love of self over others. Lucifer attempted to destroy true free will and true liberty and deny the reality of God's purpose and plan and expressions of his dominant will.

For we should make no mistake as to who's will is dominant in reality! How does God's will dominate in a universe where every being's free will is absolute?

Simple. Those expressions of free will which are not aligned with God's Will have only a local and temporal EFFECT. God's will has eternal effect. All free will expressions by all free will choices of all creatures high and low which are aligned WITH God's will and universe reality are ALSO eternal in effect! Each such choice is the realization and the expression of TRUTH which both actualizes prior potential and creates new potential for further and future actualization and realization.

So it is....some free will choices have far more power and effect than do others. And some have no power or effect except very locally and very temporally!

As material beings/humans, our free will can cause great suffering for and upon other humans. Our selves, our children, our families, our communities, even our world. And on that fateful day some 2000 years ago, a few mortals used their free will and in their unwise, immature, fear based, self serving ways expressed this evil by nailing Jesus to the cross. And this horrific expression of personal free will was not prevented or resisted or in any way abrogated or set aside or overcome by The Master or by God's own free will.

It was, by some great and perfect wisdom, determined that no matter the error, evil, sin, or iniquity expressed OR experienced by the absolute free will of every or any creature...that Michael's earthly bestowal mission was to exhibit absolute faith and confidence in REALITY and in LOVE and to demonstrate this faith to a universe in addition to his followers and this world to embolden and assure ALL beings that ALL evil, sin, and iniquity is temporal and unreal and has no hold or lasting effect upon the children of time.

So NO!!! God did not surrender his will or submit to evil, sin, or iniquity...and does NOT!!

Neither did Jesus surrender or submit himself to evil, sin, or iniquity!! He nobly demonstrated his faith and reality itself!

And both God and Jesus did so with great love and compassion and forgiveness for every being who expressed evil, sin, and iniquity on that day....and every other day too!

Or so I understand the Revelation to teach us and say....it was God's will that was done on earth on this mission....as was the faithful choice to choose and live that will of Michael's prior to coming here...to represent and demonstrate God's will and his own dedication to that will and that eternal reality of love!

The evil of man's will which ended this ministry and mission, which has now made Urantia - The World of the Cross, needed no resistance and became a gruesome but effective contrast to the Divine Will for our world and universe, which certainly dominates and survives and overcomes and even thrives no matter the potential or real expressions of evil, sin, or iniquity.

It is only by such contrast that we might, can, and do choose better and choose eternal realities rather than temporal delusions and errors based on fear or self importance.

Interestingly appropriate for this week....2000 years ago Jesus was visiting and comforting the flock of believers prior to his gift of the Spirit of Truth upon his final Ascension....his comforting display of the truth and power of his faith in God and eternity and love and forgiveness and the Gospel....proof to them of the good news and God's love for them!

8)


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For those who recall, I recently discussed and posted text that says that all revelation, whether personal or epochal, and that the evolutionary religious experience delivered by the Adjutants...these all functionally deliver assurance. The Adjutant experience brings faith-assurance and revelation brings truth-assurance.

I also claimed that IMO the revelation of the Spirit of Truth is both personal (to the each) and epochal (to the all) in its way (although it is not counted among one of the 5 within the UB...to be clear).

But in consideration of the post above about Jesus and the cross.....this element of the 4th Epochal Revelation and mission of Michael resulted, for billions and billions of people since then and still today on our world and trillions upon trillions of beings throughout Nebadon, in the greatest example and source of assurance ever demonstrated or ever felt personally in the history of our universe.

How does the wonder and power of this demonstration of the assurance of Jesus himself of God's greatness and goodness and the truth and reality of love and eternity....how was that magnified by horror visited upon him by the evil, sin, and iniquity of those few beings who perpetrated this great crime? How does that prove and exemplify the reality and fact that Jesus suffered like all other mortals do...at the hands of fear and hate and power misunderstanding and the mob and the error, sinfulness, and iniquity of others?

I remain profoundly puzzled by Jesus entering Jerusalem that Palm Sunday while so certain of his own end to come so soon. But by this choice did our world witness a miracle of truth and the power of love on display in ways which is legend and remains the hope of us all...eternal life and the assurance of that by the Spirit within...a witness and endless voice of hope and trust.

And the Son's gift of his Spirit delivers that assurance and comfort within every mind on our world forever for the rest of its history!

Reflect on that!

:wink:


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