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 Post subject: Objective Evidence
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I have a simple question and would like to know what you think.

I’ve recently been thinking that the UB represents what a lot of people are looking for. Objective evidence of God’s existence.

Do you think that the Urantia Book is objevtive evidence?


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 Post subject: Re: Objective Evidence
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Well....over 90% of Americans (those from other places consult your local statistics - Europe is lower for example) already believe in God. The UB will 'objectively' prove nothing to the others I do not think.

The UB teaches that only the presence and realization of God proves God's existence.

My opinion is that there is ample objective 'evidence' of God to any perceptive and wondering mind. We are surrounded by the wonder of creation. Love and resulting service are evidence of God as the source of love - from whence else does it come? It's downright unnatural. Each mind is already endowed with the 3 Great Spirits who are constantly communicating, creating yearning, hunger, and thirst for their ministries. Will someone believe the UB while denying the Spirit within?

I agree that the UB delivers (represents?) what believers and non-believers are looking for. Facts and knowledge answering so many previous mysteries. A perspective and philosophy of living that is reality based and aligned which, when employed, delivers progress in the Spirit.

But if one needs more evidence of God's existence than life, love, the world, the stars, and the beauty and grandeur of the glorious universe.....then I do not think the UB provides sufficient evidence.

ADJECTIVE
(of a person or their judgment) not influenced by personal feelings or opinions in considering and representing facts.

Who might lay aside their personal feelings and/or opinions about God, based on the claims of the UB?

One must read the UB and read it a great deal over considerable time and live accordingly to begin to believe the claims of the authors. I believed in God and the eternal adventure before finding the UB. It took me time to believe the UB itself. But when I came around to that, it certainly made the universe of universes more orderly, functional, and believable!!

8)

Paper 101 addresses this question and exhaustively answers it. Worth a read!!

101:1.3 (1104.6) The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. But the mind that really discerns God, hears the indwelling Adjuster, is the pure mind. “Without holiness no man may see the Lord.” All such inner and spiritual communion is termed spiritual insight. Such religious experiences result from the impress made upon the mind of man by the combined operations of the Adjuster and the Spirit of Truth as they function amid and upon the ideas, ideals, insights, and spirit strivings of the evolving sons of God.

101:1.4 (1105.1) Religion lives and prospers, then, not by sight and feeling, but rather by faith and insight. It consists not in the discovery of new facts or in the finding of a unique experience, but rather in the discovery of new and spiritual meanings in facts already well known to mankind. The highest religious experience is not dependent on prior acts of belief, tradition, and authority; neither is religion the offspring of sublime feelings and purely mystical emotions. It is, rather, a profoundly deep and actual experience of spiritual communion with the spirit influences resident within the human mind, and as far as such an experience is definable in terms of psychology, it is simply the experience of experiencing the reality of believing in God as the reality of such a purely personal experience.

101:1.5 (1105.2) While religion is not the product of the rationalistic speculations of a material cosmology, it is, nonetheless, the creation of a wholly rational insight which originates in man’s mind-experience. Religion is born neither of mystic meditations nor of isolated contemplations, albeit it is ever more or less mysterious and always indefinable and inexplicable in terms of purely intellectual reason and philosophic logic. The germs of true religion originate in the domain of man’s moral consciousness, and they are revealed in the growth of man’s spiritual insight, that faculty of human personality which accrues as a consequence of the presence of the God-revealing Thought Adjuster in the God-hungry mortal mind.
 
Can those minds that do not hunger and thirst and yearn be rationally convinced of such reality?  Nope.  Not even standing next to Jesus himself….evidently.


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 Post subject: Re: Objective Evidence
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nodAmanaV wrote:
I have a simple question and would like to know what you think.

I’ve recently been thinking that the UB represents what a lot of people are looking for. Objective evidence of God’s existence.

Do you think that the Urantia Book is objevtive evidence?

Interesting question, where I understand the underlying premise, but it is still a little open to interpretation, when you say "the UB represents" in that are you indicating that "people are looking" for "evidence of God's existence" within the pages of a book, where there are many books, from many religions which could also apply, depending on the people in question.
Also, "evidence" would imply physical type of manifestations where "spirit" could present some force, or power which could imply "evidence." Not much difference then when someone attempts to prove the "existence" of Ancient Alien's - like Adam and Eve, as they are presented in the UB, or Alien's who fly around in those, so called space craft, watching our every movement as if we are an experiment?
It would seem that there is more evidence of Alien's in the objective sense than God, or even as the UB indicates many "Gods" in the subjective sense?
Would it not require that the word "God" in the question above, be defined in more detail? And, then if Jesus is associated as God, then could anyone, who came after Jesus also be a representative of God, or God within us all? Too subjective, to be objective evidence, I think?

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 Post subject: Re: Objective Evidence
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Dear MidiChlorian I am not sure what you mean exactly by objective. But if 'objective' suggests that the Urantia Papers are untainted and untrammeled by human emotion and skepticism, it cannot be said to be entirely objective. The The Reversion Directors (the Urantia Book; 48:4.3 "prophetic joy"). The facts of suggestive curriculum for humanity means that the authors of urantia papers have subjective intentions to increase the overall functioning of each human individual, so as to coincide with the Adamic Regime read paper Urantia Book 55:6 the Individual Mortal.

The Urantia Papers can be said to have been tailored to mankind's own Reason and sensibilities, and the language is therefore subjectified to 20th Century English Grammar.

We might say that aside from these preconditions, we do have an attempt to portray objective truth, universe facts, the honest thoughtframe of man's own place in the universe.

As it becomes apparent that the Urantia Papers is one of the "most" objective works of literature for mankind, then there is extreme difficulty for man to possess anything that can be considered truly objective. What is the most objective thing? It is the potential usherings of God's will unto the universe and every creature within the universe. Since the Urantia Papers are the authors' own best suggestion unto mortal human individuals, they are universal and have a high degree of sensibility.

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 Post subject: Re: Objective Evidence
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SEla_Kelly wrote:
We might say that aside from these preconditions, we do have an attempt to portray objective truth, universe facts, the honest thoughtframe of man's own place in the universe.

SEIa_Kelly: Primarily my use of "objective" as it relates to its prior use and my reference specifically to "objective evidence" where "objective evidence" might best be associated to "documented field experience, test data, publications, finite element analysis or calculations that confirm performance characteristics, as applicable." Or, "information based on facts that can be proved through analysis, measurement, observation, and other such means of research."
In that you have used above "objective truth", where one can say that "truth" is from the eye of of the beholder, and "universe facts," would be subjective evidence, where this is evidence that you cannot evaluate -- you have to simply accept what the person says or reject it, unless temporarily provable through science. Then to place "man" into his "own place in the universe" where this objective viewpoint comes from one location looking outward, and subjective to learned knowledge.

When one assumes that there are no other books or documentation available other than the Urantia Book, then one should be more specific, when using the word "God", as a general term, as associated to people in general.
Just the use of some words or phrases like "morning star" or "evening star", can be subjective to specifics used elsewhere, which then opens "evidence" to speculation based on an authors reason for its usage?

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 Post subject: Re: Objective Evidence
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I am going to take this back to the original question from Nod.

The Urantia Book presents us with an implied challenge. It does this when is makes the following statement. 100:3.3 “In the contemplation of values you must distinguish between that which is value and that which has value. You must recognize the relation between pleasurable activities and their meaningful integration and enhanced realization on ever progressively higher and higher levels of human experience.” The significant implication in this is that while our thought processes are able to decipher additional dimensions of reality, our languages are not yet able to adequately explain those thoughts. I bring in the language issue simply because we use the same words to explain reality in different dimensions and often find ourselves in quandaries of “biblical proportions”. Such is the case in our failure to describe the difference in “is value and has value”.

I offer this. The Urantia Book is an objective reality. The Fifth Epochal Revelation of truth to the planet Urantia is much more, and much more in many dimensions. We can look at the history of the planet from both our natural historical and archeological perspectives and as revealed it the book itself and we can see how dramatic such revelations are to our collective existence. The fact that most of the planet doesn’t recognize these (other than Jesus) changes nothing, and that is a main point. The reality of intervention from the spiritual plane as is experienced in an epochal revelation creates its own reactions, much like a drop of pure food color in a clear glass of water. That the microbes living in the water don’t recognize the source is irrelevant for they deal with the color in some way.

Consciousness of the value of this revelation to each of us personally is not the same as consciousness of the revelation’s value as appreciated by its authors or by the Father himself. Revelation is both, that which is value and that which has value and our attempts to understand and appreciate that will continue to reveal the truth of that to each of us as well as to the whole planet for the balance of our history. And it is that truth that, while obscure to most, is factually objective even if it is never more than personally subjective.

Jim


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Good clarification from you MidiChlorian thanks, and a strong pronouncement from Jim George.

I think you (Midi) may be too reliant on technological instrumentation to procure facts that may be to your liking. Akin with "mota", morontia reality, and the reality of the individual human perspective, we have a set of human values that are exempted from measure. You must admit that the Urantia Book is warning that many of us would be caught at the threshold between materialism and the soul, if we insist solely on our technological instrumentation for the procurement of facts relating to "the objective perspective", or objectivity in general.

It may not be satisfying to you Midi, but we do have one of the most objective descriptions of the human condition from the words of Jesus as reported to the midway shepherd of the Apostle Andrew "seed sowing of time in the likeness of mortal flesh" (UB 182:1.6). If you are seeking true objectivity, then accept the words of the one who is fatherlike. The seeds are the Adjusters, and our true objective identities, the one we should cling to within our ego/perspective, is this nucleus of sentience which(who) allows us to understand our actual morontial selves.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I think you (Midi) may be too reliant on technological instrumentation to procure facts that may be to your liking. Akin with "mota", morontia reality, and the reality of the individual human perspective, we have a set of human values that are exempted from measure.

Maybe so, SEIa_Kelly, however being "reliant on technological instrumentation", would not reveal facts which interact between the temporal and the eternal manipulation of reality. Nevertheless, some form of "instrumentation" need be used in order to recognize change to understand the watchword of progress, however not all can recognize that which "is value and has value" without understanding that sometimes something had value, even if different from the temporal aspect from latent "objective evidence".

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Ok, before you suggest what the form of instrumentation might be, can you tell us what the scope of objective facts may be, how it exists as "mota". What are the parameters by which the morontial human individual establishes and/or conveys objective facts?

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Ok, before you suggest what the form of instrumentation might be, can you tell us what the scope of objective facts may be, how it exists as "mota". What are the parameters by which the morontial human individual establishes and/or conveys objective facts?

Okay, SEIa_Kelly, I'm assuming that your question above was addressed to me, if not, let me attempt to answer?

In relation to "mota", where it can be said that, "Mota is more than a superior philosophy; it is to philosophy as two eyes are to one; it has a stereoscopic effect on meanings and values." (48:6.28) And, in parallel to "mota — morontia wisdom", one may associate multiple objective instruments within a harmonious orchestration based on just one basic melody, or temporal measure where only one meaning is necessary to establish a specific value. When one looks at a theory using one philosophy, it can be enhanced by integrating additional philosophies, based on that one same principle, but now there are many different values which are played simultaneously, having one main mono theme expanded to stereoscopic theme and now even a full orchestration which can be realized over time. One may start with one basic objective fact, but by expanding and adding variations in related values additional facts become a part of that object, even after temporal changes. Then it can also be associated to thinking, where there are different levels of thinking, such as two and three dimensional thinking, which can be expanded upward depending on a persons capacity and experience.

As an example the following musical rendition uses a round type of measure in four parts which overlap. They start at minute "2:14", then the next at "2:30", "2:45", and the last at "3:00", where it ends at "3:15."
The time is the same the melody is the same but the actual text is different, but each version has its own value.

Mephistopheles' Return - Trans-Siberian Orchestra

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We have to accept the first fact on faith, or assumption?
Urantia Book 42:11.1 (the universe) it is a creation of mind and a mechanism of law.


https://labofevolution.wordpress.com/20 ... e-builder/


Aside from my earlier warning about the danger of materialism, I now criticise the empirical method as a means of gathering objective evidences in the morontial perspective. Ok 3 things: the Spirit of Truth (a tool an instrument), the Supreme Being, and "the method by which Universe Mind allows experiencial knowledge to be gained by the Supreme Being."


112:5.22 The Thought Adjuster will recall and rehearse for you only those memories and experiences which are a part of, and essential to, your universe career.
You know I have already stated that the Urantia Book is not truly an objective piece of knowledge/writing. It is moreso designed to foster the curiousity and yearning for truth in the minds of humanity. For us to see what is really objective truths, then we would have to see each sentient invidividual as having worth which is known objectively by God. "Survival value" or "Personality Identity" these are two terms which indicate the objective value of the individual as it is recognised through divine foresight. Obviously we are not able to judge specifically what these values are with human sensibility. And even so, the human individual can only gain that much universe truth or objective knowledge as he could contain through ideal experiencial maturation in the auspices of his Thought Adjuster (there could be extra stages of maturation as finaliters which we do not know).


I have tried to analyse your method of point counterpoints, and I believe you are using an empirical method which leads to a statistical indication of fact, which establishes a tautology. But such tautology would be a best practice version of truth. How do you escape the subjectivity that the musical scales are a cultural preference, that each individual melody were written by the same composer?

I wish to suggest that objectivity can only be found in the phenomenon of universal mind. Perhaps this idea of mota is that the human eye and the eye of the thought adjuster may function conjointly. But let us keep going with the logic of approaching objective knowledge from the experiencial and human perspective. In another topic we could discuss the need for God to gain experience of existence, what God's own need for objective truth may be "as a need to sympathise with his children".

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Yes, I very much feel that TUB provides the "objective evidence" that so many have an urge to find. It certainly did for me, if you interpret "objective evidence" in a certain way. You might call that "external evidence" or "evidence by providing relevance" or "intelligence guided observation" or "interrelated consistency".

The fact of that is shown by several occurrences of the type where someone had spent much of their life trying to live religiously but naturally having some doubts and then after coming into contact with and understanding TUB they suddenly exclaim "So God really does exist!".

I think a person can be quite aware, in a personal way without ever knowing TUB exists, of certain facts such as the bestowal of Adam and Eve, the impact of their biologic contribution on our spiritual capacity along with the repercussions of their default. But when those facts are spelled out in detail and connected to the billions of related facts that are important to get a more complete picture of life on this planet, everything as a whole becomes illuminated and real. That is infinitely more powerful and convincing than any one particular atomic fact.


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Where does Faith come in when there is "objective evidence"? Lucifer demanded "objected evidence" of our unseen Father.

Louis


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“I refuse to prove that I exist” says God “for proof denies faith and without faith I am nothing”.

“But” says Man, “the Babel Fish is a dead giveaway, isn’t it? It could not have evolved by chance. It proves you exist, and so therefore, by your own argument you don’t. QED.”

“Oh, dear” says God, “I hadn’t thought of that” and promptly vanishes in a puff of logic.

Douglas Adams - The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy


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Maybe these questions are linked to The Master's challenge during the Passover Supper to his apostles, and all believers, to drink wine as an experiential proxy to ingesting his blood and to eat bread as an experiential proxy to ingesting his body. Such things mean nothing to those without faith but are objective evidence of the existence of The Master and objective evidence of the existence of our relationship to him. At the very least they are experiential evidence.


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