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nodAmanaV wrote:
Riktare wrote:
If time is symmetric then presumably backwards running time is as valid as forward running time even if we as personalities are wired to only experience forward running time.

That's an interesting statement. To me, that describes the essence of what eternal existence is, when (if) we achieve it.

It reminds me of what the Urantia Book says about what happens if we fuse with an Adjuster who's had previous indwelling experience with non-surviving mortals. At that moment all the past experiences of a non-surviver becomes a part of the one who succeeds to fuse.

'Take away this one talent from this unprofitable servant and give it to him who has the ten talents.'


Thank you Mr. nodAmanaV for highlighting this truth.

189:1.3 Mankind is slow to perceive that, in all that is personal, matter is the skeleton of morontia, and that both are the reflected shadow of enduring spirit reality. How long before you will regard time as the moving image of eternity and space as the fleeting shadow of Paradise realities?

Please remember that time is the moving image of eternity and not eternity itself. The absolute of time is eternity. Mathematical physics have resorted to a "cheating technique" called renormalization in order to make some sense of equations that explode to infinity and implied to zero. How ling will it take for these mathematicians realize that they are using t time in their equations as an absolute, eternity. They thought that they found a clever way of freeing time from its absoluteness by stretching or shrinking the time line in Special Relativity. How can you make an infinite line longer or shorter? I can figure a way to make a circle bigger or smaller. I own a compass.

TUB tells us that potential infinity and eternity are inseparable.

0:11.12 Always remember: Potential infinity is absolute and inseparable from eternity. Actual infinity in time can never be anything but partial and must therefore be nonabsolute; neither can infinity of actual personality be absolute except in unqualified Deity. And it is the differential of infinity potential in the Unqualified Absolute and the Deity Absolute that eternalizes the Universal Absolute, thereby making it cosmically possible to have material universes in space and spiritually possible to have finite personalities in time.
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toto says" "The Earth rotates counter clockwise in the northern hemisphere and clockwise in the southern hemisphere. We "clock" the same time, however."

I readily confess my lack of knowledge with such complex concepts (but I do follow Nigel on 2 other forums and learn things while my head spins (hahaha) and know of both his secular/scientific and UB/scientific credentials....but the statement above to a layperson seems contrary.

No matter where on our globe, left is left and right is right, east is east and west is west, and the horizon line remains east and west Up Over and Down Under. The axis rotation is uniform for the entire sphere and not multi-directional...unlike my own "sphere" at the moment!

Perplexed............ :shock: :?:
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It's interesting that when you flush a toilet in the north it spirals one way but in the southern hemisphere it flushes in the opposite direction.

Why?
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nodAmanaV wrote:
It's interesting that when you flush a toilet in the north it spirals one way but in the southern hemisphere it flushes in the opposite direction.

Why?


Also consider that hurricanes in the northern hemisphere always rotate counterclockwise. In the southern hemisphere these types of storms or typhoons rotate clockwise. The Earth's equator is where these motions reflect.

Take a model globe of the Earth and rotate it on its axis. Looking down from the north pole the globe is rotating in the opposite direction of the direction that it rotates looking from the southern pole. Th fact that the globe is in rotation and has an axis creates these counter rotational motions. This also goes for any particle that spins and breathes, such as a photon.
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nodAmanaV wrote:
It's interesting that when you flush a toilet in the north it spirals one way but in the southern hemisphere it flushes in the opposite direction.


Yes! This is exactly what I mean when I say that time can appear to run backwards if you don't take into account the "local" configuration of other physical characteristics in their own dimension.

You may have the aptitude to be a physicist nodAmanaV! :)

If you are in a spaceship flying by the Earth, observe what nodAmanaV has just done and naively ignore the polarity of the Coriolis force in the different hemispheres you could claim that time runs backwards in the Southern hemisphere.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coriolis_force
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Riktare wrote:
If you are in a spaceship flying by the Earth, observe what nodAmanaV has just done and naively ignore the polarity of the Coriolis force in the different hemispheres you could claim that time runs backwards in the Southern hemisphere.


Yes Mr. Riktare, but this is not the same as time reversal, as in going back in time. Time is circular but it is more correct to say that time is spherical and rotates. One must think of the equator as a mirror. The northern hemisphere is a mirror image of the southern hemisphere. This illustrates the symmetry of time. When you look in the mirror and move your right hand, your image moves the left hand. Which is the real and correct handedness?

If this is how you want to define the backwards running of time, it is OK with me. However, when watching the Olympics in Rio this past summer, the runners ran in a forwards direction. I could turn to my watch and catch a scheduled event even though I was in another hemisphere.
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Forget about toilets, let's talk about hurricanes.

Besides moving westerly, they always tend towards the poles. Generally, the further they get away from the equator, the faster their rotation gets. Centrifugal force I guess. But if hypothetically there were two simultaneous hurricanes, one centered directly over the north pole and one at the south pole, if you could observe them from a point above the axis of the Earth and were able to look through it to observe the other as if the world were made of glass, you would see them rotating in the same direction.
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nodAmanaV wrote:
Forget about toilets, let's talk about hurricanes.

Besides moving westerly, they always tend towards the poles. Generally, the further they get away from the equator, the faster their rotation gets. Centrifugal force I guess. But if hypothetically there were two simultaneous hurricanes, one centered directly over the north pole and one at the south pole, if you could observe them from a point above the axis of the Earth and were able to look through it to observe the other as if the world were made of glass, you would see them rotating in the same direction.


Your hypothetical could not really happen. There is no rotation at the poles, if you were to consider them a point. There is no motion there any more than there can be motion at the very center of a carousel. The hurricanes actually weaken as they move north because of decreasing centrifugal force and colder ocean waters and other factors as they move to the higher latitudes. Always remember that all motions, including hurricanes, seek rest. They "gravitate" towards the poles. Think of the poles as you would Paradise, motionless and at rest.
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fanofVan wrote:
No matter where on our globe, left is left and right is right, east is east and west is west, and the horizon line remains east and west Up Over and Down Under. The axis rotation is uniform for the entire sphere and not multi-directional...unlike my own "sphere" at the moment!


Well, although this is true it is not entirely true. That is to say, that all that you have mentioned is has come about purely by convention. This convention was attended mainly by white European men. If an Aussie would have mapped the Earth first, we would be the ones "down under " on the map. We consider true North as the opposite of true South. But this is by convention. The North Star was named for the pole we have called "North".

Please remember that the only absolute direction in the Master Universe is given by Paradise. Everything else is relative.
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(23:2.20) They go forth to investigate the clues furnished by the space contemplators of the realms. Undoubtedly the Paradise Deities know of the existence of these undiscovered energy systems of space, but they never divulge such information. If the Solitary Messengers did not explore and chart these newly organizing energy centers, such phenomena would long remain unnoticed even by the intelligences of adjacent realms. Solitary Messengers, as a class, are highly sensitive to gravity; accordingly they can sometimes detect the probable presence of very small dark planets, the very worlds which are best adapted to life experiments.

This is one of the most revealing statements about the inhabited worlds of our universe in my opinion. It surprises me I've never seen it brought up on this forum and other forums. Could one of these worlds be in "close proximity" and therefore be undetected by our astronomers? Maybe it's the 9th planet I've heard a lot about lately, although the revelators seem to imply that these worlds occupy a position in space isolated, away from a sun. It's very interesting that they tell us they're "the very worlds which are best adapted to life experiments" and that they're "very small". Perhaps the majority of inhabited worlds are "dark planets".

I've always thought that, besides what the Urantia Book reveals about the spiritual realities of the universe, what it reveals about the physical realities is equally fascinating and important. Why else would they do that?

From a physics standpoint, there are two revelations that I believe are included in the Urantia Book because of how far behind the curve we are in developing those things that usually occur but haven't on our world due to the consequences of the loss of Adam and Eve, which by their presence, is usually when the industrial revolution begins to improve the standard of living on a "normal" world. So we're about forty thousand years late.

The first one is how many times the revelators refer to a source of "undiscovered energy" and seem to imply that this energy is tied to the realities of the ultimaton - the greatest physical revelation, which may eventually solve so many problems of profound significance in the lives of those who will be here when we're gone.

They seem to be prodding us (you physicists) to look for these things based on what they reveal and I applaud all of you that are engaged in this enterprise of injecting these revelations into the mainstream of the conventional theories of physics. Don't ever doubt your place.
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toto wrote:
If this is how you want to define the backwards running of time, it is OK with me. However, when watching the Olympics in Rio this past summer, the runners ran in a forwards direction. I could turn to my watch and catch a scheduled event even though I was in another hemisphere.


Toto, Manny, Louis, You sure know how to make friends... :)

I'm really trying to be patient and supporting but it is not easy when someone has their very own concept of physics which has very little in common with the known, measured, thought through concepts of our times and would rather substitute their own ill conceived notions. It is very easy to take the revelator's comments in a totally different direction from what the revelators had in mind.

I don't know why it is so very hard to understand that I never said that I wanted to define how time ran: backwards or forwards. I have merely tried to offer a slightly alternate perspective that the status of today's Physics is not as hopeless as you would make out. But one must fully understand and appreciate its strengths before offering things as replacements that will never reflect the reality of how the universe functions... At least a tiny bit of reality testing is needed...
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Riktare wrote:
toto wrote:
If this is how you want to define the backwards running of time, it is OK with me. However, when watching the Olympics in Rio this past summer, the runners ran in a forwards direction. I could turn to my watch and catch a scheduled event even though I was in another hemisphere.


Toto, Manny, Louis, You sure know how to make friends... :)

I'm really trying to be patient and supporting but it is not easy when someone has their very own concept of physics which has very little in common with the known, measured, thought through concepts of our times and would rather substitute their own ill conceived notions. It is very easy to take the revelator's comments in a totally different direction from what the revelators had in mind.

I don't know why it is so very hard to understand that I never said that I wanted to define how time ran: backwards or forwards. I have merely tried to offer a slightly alternate perspective that the status of today's Physics is not as hopeless as you would make out. But one must fully understand and appreciate its strengths before offering things as replacements that will never reflect the reality of how the universe functions... At least a tiny bit of reality testing is needed...


OK, well I am sorry if you take what I say personally. I do not intend to be offensive to you. I really do not think that Physics is hopeless, but theoretical physics and particle physics in particular, wants tax dollars. If you are a Brit, this means Pounds Sterling out of your pocket. A particle accelerator cost a lot of money and it must be lobbied for. I wonder about the scientific honesty of those who must produce results or risk being defunded.

I really am not asking you to be patient with me or even support a single thing I say. I just would appreciate an honest discussion of what mainstream physics believes as compared to what The Revelations have said in TUB. There may be some interpretation involved but many statements are straight up declarative in TUB and stand in stark contrast to what current Physics tell us is true. I understand that there are many careers in the sciences that are in danger if the information in TUB is accepted as true. The dogma in science reminds me of the dogma in my own religion, Catholicism. Many statements in TUB threatens current scientific thought, and The Revelation speaks blasphemy in revealing that Mother Mary was/is not a virgin, and that Jesus actually had brothers and sisters.

It may come as a surprise to you, but claiming to be patient with me and your offerings of support are condescending in tone. If I have ill conceived notions, please do not coddle me. I want to be challenged. If I am taking the revelator's comments in a different direction than what they had in mind, please tell what you think they had in mind. At least this would constitute an honest discussion. Why do you find it necessary to defend Physics? Does it need defending against the likes of me? TUB was sent to correct errors. Let us try to find where those errors lie instead of defending the indefensible.

I am not a physicist and I do not pretend to be one. But what I will tell you next, we all learned in high school algebra class.

The cartesian graph with three orthogonal planes and x,y,z, coordinates represent an ABSOLUTE space. This space does not move. Neither is time depicted on this model of space. We are told that time in this model is either implied or that it lies in the imaginary plane. It is not in dispute that physics uses mathematics of motion to conduct its business, the science of motion.

I am very sorry and I apologize in advance, but this is at variance to TUB which states that space is sub-absolute and that space moves.

How is it that physics, the science of motion, uses a non-moving and absolute space background in which to write its mathematical language??? We are to use this model to determine the position of moving objects (coordinates) and determined their velocity, acceleration and so on.

Position has no meaning in this language if the background, space, is moving. Velocity, which is change in position over time must also be meaningless. Acceleration, which is change in velocity over time is also meaningless. This is all foundational language in the study of motion and TUB has put a monkey wrench in the gears, just by stating that space moves and is not absolute. The revelators further introduce an inconvenient truth by stating that time is circular simultaneity. Which implies that time runs clockwise and counter clockwise simultaneously, as does the motions of the Earth's two hemispheres, yet both are forward moving with regards to the absolute direction established by Paradise.

This error in science is clear to me. Am I misdirecting what the revelators had in mind with this interpretation? If so, then we can discuss where I am wrong.

If I am right about what I think the revelators have said, physics has a fundamentally flawed language simply because the paper that it is written on is expanding. Its grammar is garbled. Logic always lies in the use of meaningful language.


BTW, I am not here to make friends, I am here to seek Truth. Can we start over? I am willing to do all of the reality testing you desire.
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well my two cents is it's pretty clear that time in the UB is a succession and procession not a regression and the circular simultaneity view just enlarges that to the whole procession..."the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time."

nothing to me there that implies time runs backwards...and since we can only glimpse this viewpoint as long as we are timespace bound creatures i'm not sure it invalidates the physics of linear time in any practical way
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Makalu wrote:
well my two cents is it's pretty clear that time in the UB is a succession and procession not a regression and the circular simultaneity view just enlarges that to the whole procession..."the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time."

nothing to me there that implies time runs backwards...and since we can only glimpse this viewpoint as long as we are timespace bound creatures i'm not sure it invalidates the physics of linear time in any practical way


This I would consider a fair and honest interpretation. But please consider the following. Fragments are discrete structures. The discrete borns the continuous in the Paradise pattern that makes copies. A continuous spiral is made up of fragments of circles, not fragments of lines. Fragments of lines is the theory of the calculus. This invented mathematics was used to describe motion. And by the same fella that said, "bodies at rest tend to stay at rest unless...". In this invention, fragments of lines are called infinitesimals. In this way, the attempt to rectify a curve could be packaged and sold to an unsuspecting scientific public. This amounts no less than an attempt of man to image God. The image was then to image the Creator. And nobody raised there hand in that lecture hall and called Doctor Newton to explain how a fragment of a line, which is infinite, is still not an infinity. And then the D student in the corner pointed out that you can make a line start and stop with points.

It is too bad that there was not someone like Mr. Makalu there to remind the students that the time line is nonbeginning and nonending.

Let me now emphasize the nonbeginning, nonending, aspect of time and motion. We agree, based on your statement, that time and motion are existential. Please give me an example of a physical aspect of nature that a physicist can theorize or formulate without resorting to a beginning or resting state.They, physicists, sometimes use the term, initial conditions.

Every single theory and every physical mathematical description in physics has these aspects of "beginnings". The biggest example of this problem of initial conditions is the theory of "The Big Bang".

Thank you Mr. Makalu for bring up the nonbeginning and nonending aspects of time, and therefore, motion as well. And while both a line and a circle have these existential properties, motion is a curve. Motion is never linear.
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yeah from the practical viewpoint motion is essential to time yet sequentiality can consciousize time in the absence of motion.

i think the physicist is correct...everything in the material universe of time and space does have a beginning and end...the fact that science demands causes doesnt invalidate the attempt to learn the secrets of their effects. if the physicists were forced to construct a cosmology based on the UB they would have to deal with cyclical time as you've said and the fact that time and space aren't inseparable in the universe and the eternal central stationary isle and belts of counterbalancing motions and power directors and physical controllers and a bunch of other important stuff just to cover the basics....oh look a birdie i forgot what i was talking about :mrgreen:

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32:5.3 (364.5) As regards an individual life, the duration of a realm, or the chronology of any connected series of events, it would seem that we are dealing with an isolated stretch of time; everything seems to have a beginning and an end. And it would appear that a series of such experiences, lives, ages, or epochs, when successively arranged, constitutes a straightaway drive, an isolated event of time flashing momentarily across the infinite face of eternity. But when we look at all this from behind the scenes, a more comprehensive view and a more complete understanding suggest that such an explanation is inadequate, disconnected, and wholly unsuited properly to account for, and otherwise to correlate, the transactions of time with the underlying purposes and basic reactions of eternity.

32:5.4 (364.6) To me it seems more fitting, for purposes of explanation to the mortal mind, to conceive of eternity as a cycle and the eternal purpose as an endless circle, a cycle of eternity in some way synchronized with the transient material cycles of time. As regards the sectors of time connected with, and forming a part of, the cycle of eternity, we are forced to recognize that such temporary epochs are born, live, and die just as the temporary beings of time are born, live, and die.
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