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Agon,

Thanks for the correction.

I am interested however in addressing what is truly significant about the death of Jesus.

The Creator Son of God was brutally murdered.

That's significant.

Do you think it happens every time a Creator Son incarnates as a human?


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Whether His death was at the hands of brutal, ignorant, spiritually deficient mortals has no bearing on the significance of His death. One of the strongest teachings of the Urantia Book is that we ought to focus on the LIFE of Jesus, not death. Jesus lived an exemplary life that is to be a model for us to try to emulate in our own time and our own mortal experience.

He suffered and died so that we may know that we are not alone when we suffer. We know that our Brother/ Creator Son did not put Himself above the very same type of experiences that Urantia mortals (and, indeed, mortals of every world and universe) are likely to have to cope with. He truly suffers with us and he understands what it feels like to experience physical and emotional pain.


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Agon D. Onter wrote:
Whether His death was at the hands of brutal, ignorant, spiritually deficient mortals has no bearing on the significance of His death.

No bearing? I do not agree Agon.

What would have been the significance of his death had it happened naturally, without murdering him?

What would have been the significance of his death had our predecessors believed him and implemented his teachings, instead of murdering him?

What would have been the significance of his death if the people of this world did what he asked, to follow him, instead of destroying him.

The significance is catastrophic.

What, has been destroyed forever, lost in time, by not following him?


Last edited by nodAmanaV on Mon Oct 03, 2016 9:28 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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My answers are in blue, below.

nodAmanaV wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
Whether His death was at the hands of brutal, ignorant, spiritually deficient mortals has no bearing on the significance of His death.

No bearing? I do not agree Agon.

What would have been the significance of his death had it happened naturally, without murdering him?
He would still have fulfilled his incarnation mission and would still ascend to the Father as Sovereign of Nebadon. From a cosmic perspective, it would change nothing. From a Urantia mortal perspective, it would mean we would lack the example of his noble suffering, even unto death, with dignity even at the hands of unjust men who reviled and tortured him. Such would be a loss to us in terms of not having the comfort of knowing that He suffered physical death in the most horrible of circumstances. But other than that, his death is his death, whether of natural causes or otherwise. Again, we are to look to his LIFE for meaning, not his death.

What would have been the significance of his death had our predecessors believed him and implemented his teachings, instead of murdering him?
Many of Jesus' followers did believe in him and tried their best to implement his teachings. If you are asking if EVERYONE on the planet had truly believed in him and implemented his teachings, then our planet would have advanced to the stage of Light and Life. But that would equate to rapid REvolution rather than slow Evolution. It is not God's intention that everyone obey and follow in the blink of an eye (which, in cosmic time, mortal Jesus' 33 year lifespan certainly is.)

What would have been the significance of his death if the people of this world did what he asked, to follow him, instead of destroying him.
The same as it is now. The consequences of our righteousness in following him would be different, but the significance of his death would be exactly the same.

The significance is catastrophic.

What, has been destroyed forever, lost in time, by not following him?

We have the choice to follow him now. Many people, from Jesus' day until this day, work to understand his teachings and to follow them as best we can, being fallible humans and all.

You present a very bleak picture, Nod, that I just don't buy into. I agree it was a mistake for Pilate to sentence Jesus to death on the cross, but I don't think it changes things all that much in the long run whether He died that way or in His sleep, peacefully. His bravery in the face of a violent death was certainly an inspiration for his Apostles, many of whom were persecuted and killed because of their beliefs later on. They had the comfort of knowing Jesus suffered the same fate, and with grace and dignity.


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Agree Agon...nod's dark perspective is perplexing....if perpetual. My point regarding the manner of Jesus' death is it was either/both chosen and/or allowed by the Master!!! It was strategic, tactical, deliberate, and with purpose!

Are we to think the Creator/Master Son of a universe is or was helpless in the face of primitives? REALLY???!!!!

Good Grief!

:roll: 8)


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Grief is right. Good it's not.

Bleak? Look around and see the suffering going on. We elect retards, give nuclear weapons of mass destruction to savages, allow the homeless and destitute to live in squalor, shall I go on?

The life of Jesus is the greatest expression of Love ever. The manner of his death is an absolute Disgrace.

And that's significant.


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nod...so do you think that the method of the death of Jesus was foreordained (unavoidable destiny) or was otherwise unpreventable or was perhaps unexpected or sudden and unpredictable? Or was the manner of his death either chosen or allowed by Jesus for his own purposes? Jesus had many followers and champions, some of whom made generous offers for his relocation and continued/expanded ministry beyond Palestine. Jesus loved us as you say, as does Father God and our Mother and all other Deities and creators. It seems you hate us and despise us and think the world unworthy of such love. Personal guilt is a curious thing...it seeks to include others, even all others, in its own perceived unworthiness.

Can you not also see the billions of people laughing and loving and serving others in kindness, generosity, patience, loyalty, and illuminated by the Spirits within? Can you not see the planetary progress through the Mortal Epochs since the death of Jesus and bestowal of his spirit gift? Do you not see that time to come when Urantia is in Light and Life and we truly become the Shrine of Nebadon - on planet as well as in the universes of time and space? Shall I feel guilt? Did humanity murder Jesus? Or just a handful of self important and self loving primitives who managed to create a little mob fervor for their crimes? You sound like any other middling "original sin" and "damnation" preacher I ever heard of!! "The world must repent and be saved from the sins of our fathers!!"

Lighten up. Can you not see the brilliance of the light casting the small shadow by this evil and sin of a few? Factually and functionally, no one KILLED Jesus. That's the point! Factually and functionally, mortal death is but a veil and portal to LIFE, no matter the manner of the death itself. Jesus' was public and brutal and a crime by those who executed the crime. It is not an indictment against the human race or our world.

Who do you think was in charge of Jesus life since the Transfiguration? Who goaded and shamed the priests? Who rode into Jerusalem that Sunday? ....quite willingly and very aware of probable outcomes that week. You sound as though you think someone else or no one at all was in charge of the Master's life...and death. I don't agree.

187:5.6 (2011.2) Jesus died royally — as he had lived. He freely admitted his kingship and remained master of the situation throughout the tragic day. He went willingly to his ignominious death, after he had provided for the safety of his chosen apostles. He wisely restrained Peter’s trouble-making violence and provided that John might be near him right up to the end of his mortal existence. He revealed his true nature to the murderous Sanhedrin and reminded Pilate of the source of his sovereign authority as a Son of God. He started out to Golgotha bearing his own crossbeam and finished up his loving bestowal by handing over his spirit of mortal acquirement to the Paradise Father. After such a life — and at such a death — the Master could truly say, “It is finished.”

186:5.4 (2002.5) The gospel of the good news that mortal man may, by faith, become spirit-conscious that he is a son of God, is not dependent on the death of Jesus. True, indeed, all this gospel of the kingdom has been tremendously illuminated by the Master’s death, but even more so by his life.

186:5.5 (2002.6) All that the Son of Man said or did on earth greatly embellished the doctrines of sonship with God and of the brotherhood of men, but these essential relationships of God and men are inherent in the universe facts of God’s love for his creatures and the innate mercy of the divine Sons. These touching and divinely beautiful relations between man and his Maker, on this world and on all others throughout the universe of universes, have existed from eternity; and they are not in any sense dependent on these periodic bestowal enactments of the Creator Sons of God, who thus assume the nature and likeness of their created intelligences as a part of the price which they must pay for the final acquirement of unlimited sovereignty over their respective local universes. *

186:5.6 (2002.7) The Father in heaven loved mortal man on earth just as much before the life and death of Jesus on Urantia as he did after this transcendent exhibition of the copartnership of man and God. This mighty transaction of the incarnation of the God of Nebadon as a man on Urantia could not augment the attributes of the eternal, infinite, and universal Father, but it did enrich and enlighten all other administrators and creatures of the universe of Nebadon. While the Father in heaven loves us no more because of this bestowal of Michael, all other celestial intelligences do. And this is because Jesus not only made a revelation of God to man, but he also likewise made a new revelation of man to the Gods and to the celestial intelligences of the universe of universes.

186:5.7 (2003.1) Jesus is not about to die as a sacrifice for sin. He is not going to atone for the inborn moral guilt of the human race. Mankind has no such racial guilt before God. Guilt is purely a matter of personal sin and knowing, deliberate rebellion against the will of the Father and the administration of his Sons.


8)


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What's more, then to cover up this sin, other equally barbaric and morally compromised inhabitants of this world spread a GREAT LIE that the Father in heaven demanded a ransom, like a criminal seeking revenge, for the sins of every individual inhabitant of this pathetic world, by requiring the murder of Jesus of Nazareth to satisfy some crazed blood lust!


i dunno how you can equate the roman soldiers with paul and the other early believers....nonetheless, that "great lie" did bring an end to the practice of sacrifice to a culture that had long believed "it is the blood that maketh an atonement for the soul" and "without the shedding of blood there is no remission of sin”, did elevate the concept of god from angry to appeased, did and continues to bestow the peace of forgiveness for sin upon believers and the promise of salvation.

it's also brought centuries of wasted time and effort by christian scholars to try and make sense of exactly how this erroneous concept is supposed to work in the universe but hey "no matter how illusory and erroneous one’s theology, one’s religion may be wholly genuine and everlastingly true."

on a sidenote regarding bleakness i'm reminded of this recent article:
For those who paint dark futures, the past offers a different palette


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(151:1.3) The apostles and those who were with them, when they heard Jesus teach the people in this manner, were greatly perplexed; and after much talking among themselves, that evening in the Zebedee garden Matthew said to Jesus: "Master, what is the meaning of the dark sayings which you present to the multitude? Why do you speak in parables to those who seek the truth?" And Jesus answered:

(151:1.4) "In patience have I instructed you all this time. To you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to the undiscerning multitudes and to those who seek our destruction, from now on, the mysteries of the kingdom shall be presented in parables. And this we will do so that those who really desire to enter the kingdom may discern the meaning of the teaching and thus find salvation, while those who listen only to ensnare us may be the more confounded in that they will see without seeing and will hear without hearing. My children, do you not perceive the law of the spirit which decrees that to him who has shall be given so that he shall have an abundance; but from him who has not shall be taken away even that which he has. Therefore will I henceforth speak to the people much in parables to the end that our friends and those who desire to know the truth may find that which they seek, while our enemies and those who love not the truth may hear without understanding. Many of these people follow not in the way of the truth. The prophet did, indeed, describe all such undiscerning souls when he said: 'For this people's heart has waxed gross, and their ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed lest they should discern the truth and understand it in their hearts.'"



What is the meaning of the significance of the death of Jesus of Nazareth?


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Nod, have you read the Urantia Book? At all? It often seems like you just copy and paste random quotes from the online ebook when your own statements are proven incorrect over and over again. If you have actually read the entire book, why do you persist in asking such fundamental questions that are so clearly and simply addressed throughout?


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The law of the universe is: Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find.

Don't break the law.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
The law of the universe is: Ask and you shall receive; seek and you shall find.

Don't break the law.


There are many "laws" of the universe....including the law of gravity so your claim is false as it does not state THE LAW of the universe - poppycock alert! Jesus gave only two commandments. There is no room for fear or its endless expressions in either of those.

The life and the death of Jesus is not a parable, however, if one were to utilize this real life event in parable form, one lesson might be that DEATH or mortality has NO MEANING in reality or in time or in eternity, regardless of its cause or form; mortality is simply a doorway that must be passed through from one life to the next, or more accurately, as a continuation of life in the universes of time and space.

The imposition of meaning and importance appears to contradict the reality that mortality has no permanence and is not REAL and this should be a basic understanding and motivation for any and all who believe the actual gospel OF Jesus as presented by him. Some think WHO killed Jesus important and extend that blame to all manner of folk and others think HOW he died of paramount importance and some think that WHY he died is what matters.

I think the truth and fact that Jesus DID NOT die is the whole point of his gospel, ministry, life, and death! He was not afraid of death because it has no hold upon him or any believer (and some might say any with even a flicker of faith and love response). To be angry or afraid by the Master's death is to miss the whole point of his life and gospel - the good news of God's tender love, mercy, patience, and the family of ALL in a friendly universe.

Purveyors of fear and anxiety and blame simply don't get the most fundamental of all truths and realities.

8)


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fanofVan wrote:
The life and the death of Jesus is not a parable, however, if one were to utilize this real life event in parable form, one lesson might be that DEATH or mortality has NO MEANING in reality or in time or in eternity, regardless of its cause or form; mortality is simply a doorway that must be passed through from one life to the next, or more accurately, as a continuation of life in the universes of time and space.

Death has no meaning?

(166:3.3) "You also have another saying among you, and one that contains much truth: That the way which leads to eternal life is straight and narrow, that the door which leads thereto is likewise narrow so that, of those who seek salvation, few can find entrance through this door.

I know, it's wide enough, if you find the meaning (of life).


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Please do tell us the meaning of death. What does death mean to you? For me, it's like grabbing an elevator to ascend from ground level to the second story in which I get to visit every floor, one at a time. To me, the "significance" of the death of Jesus is how insignificant mortality actually is. But what does it mean to you?

And please refrain from posting partial (and thereby, editorialized) text without some indication of the fact you are posting partial quotes! What does the rest of that teaching say?

And what of the 99 and the one? And what of the mercy credits? What of those who may not find the meaning of life in this first experience of life on the material world of birth? Are they damned?

Be afraid nod, be afraid. If that is working for you. Fear what you are or are not doing, fear what others are or are not doing. Fear of fairness and love as it is applied to each and every child of the universes of time and space.

:roll:

Regarding "the law": “When you are the subjects of this kingdom, you indeed are made to hear the law of the Universe Ruler; but when, because of the gospel of the kingdom which I have come to declare, you faith-discover yourselves as sons, you henceforth look not upon yourselves as law-subject creatures of an all-powerful king but as privileged sons of a loving and divine Father.

Verily, verily, I say to you, when the Father’s will is your law, you are hardly in the kingdom. But when the Father’s will becomes truly your will, then are you in very truth in the kingdom because the kingdom has thereby become an established experience in you. When God’s will is your law, you are noble slave subjects; but when you believe in this new gospel of divine sonship, my Father’s will becomes your will, and you are elevated to the high position of the free children of God, liberated sons of the kingdom.’” (1588.4) 141:2.1

How's that slave to the law thing working?


Last edited by fanofVan on Tue Oct 04, 2016 11:16 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Don't worry, be happy.

(188:4.9) All this concept of atonement and sacrificial salvation is rooted and grounded in selfishness. Jesus taught that service to one's fellows is the highest concept of the brotherhood of spirit believers. Salvation should be taken for granted by those who believe in the fatherhood of God. The believer's chief concern should not be the selfish desire for personal salvation but rather the unselfish urge to love and, therefore, serve one's fellows even as Jesus loved and served mortal men.

That's what living means.


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