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Greetings Louis,

It seems to me that if you are going to make claims about God when you really mean the Trinity, you should make it clear what you are talking about. God is defined in the Papers as such:

GOD is a word symbol designating all personalizations of Deity. The term requires a different definition on each personal level of Deity function and must be still further redefined within each of these levels, as this term may be used to designate the diverse co-ordinate and subordinate personalizations of Deity; for example: the Paradise Creator Sons — the local universe fathers. 0:2:6

The Divine Counselor tells us that the word "God" requires different definitions on each level. The blanket use of the word God is otherwise confusing.

MannyC wrote:
Functioning is not the same as residing.God the Sevenfold is a functional extension of The Holy Trinity. This is how the Trinity functions without moving.


Where do the personalities of God the Sevenfold reside then? It says in the following quote that God the Sevenfold is Deity personalized in time and space. God the Sevenfold consists of actual personalities. Where do they reside? Are they only on Paradise? I don't think so.

This sevenfold Deity personalization in time and space and to the seven superuniverses enables mortal man to attain the presence of God, who is spirit. 0:8:9

In the sectors of time he confers differential honor only on the Paradise personalities of God the Sevenfold, the co-ordinate creators of the finite universes. 3:1:12

Creator Sons are personality centers for the spiritual forces of the Paradise Father-Son. Creator Sons are the final power-personality focalizations of the mighty time-space attributes of God the Sevenfold. 33:1:3


MannyC wrote:
Adjuster do not reside in time. They actually traverse space instantly, without time.They are God and God does not reside in time.


How Adjusters traverse space is immaterial to where they reside. They have a definite residence at different phases of their existence. Their home sphere and rendevouz place is called Divinington. When they leave Divinington they go somewhere. Where do they go? They go to a place in time and in space where they indwell. Indwell is defined as being present within a mind for a period of time. That mind is in time and in space. Adjusters descend, which means they move down through time and space to reside in a material mind functioning within time and space. Their timelessness has nothing at all to do with where they reside.

MannyC wrote:
Rexford wrote:
Adjusters are playing the sacred and superb game of the ages; they are engaged in one of the supreme adventures of time in space. 110:3:1


They are engaged in one the supreme adventures OF time and space, NOT IN time and space.


Adventures OF time IN space, is what it says. What is an adventure of time? It seems to me if you hare having an adventure of hiking, you would be hiking. An adventure of marriage would involve marriage; an adventure of space travel would put you in space. An adventure of time puts you in time. Then, the quote goes on to say IN space. An adventure of time takes place in space. It seems to me that the adventure is all about time and space for the Adjusters. If they are not in time and space, where are they?

MannyC wrote:
Havona and Paradise comprise the Central Universe. Paradise is not in time and Havona is not a time creation. And both are to be found at the nucleus of the ultimaton.


No, I don’t think so. Paradise alone is in the nucleus of the ultimaton. There is no mention of Havona in this quote:

The ultimaton, the first measurable form of energy, has Paradise as its nucleus. 42:1:2

If you do a search for both ultimaton and Havona, it comes up empty, so I do not know where you got that information.

MannyC wrote:
That is why The Unqualified Absolute can pervade space and not be in time-space.


If the Unqualified Absolute is not in time and space then how does it become conditioned by what is in time and space?

The Unqualified Absolute is a positive universe overcontrol in infinity; this overcontrol is space-force unlimited but is definitely conditioned by the presence of life, mind, spirit, and personality, and is further conditioned by the will-reactions and purposeful mandates of the Paradise Trinity. 0:11:8


MannyC wrote:
The authors do not know just how the TA resides in the mind of man. It is a riddle. Thought adjusters are not thoughts but thought adjusters. There is no reason to think that TAs are residing in time because they are spirit patterns and they exist in relation to space and not space-time itself.


Where did you get the information that Adjusters are spirit patterns? I don’t think that exists in the Papers. If you have the quote, please share. In the quote below it says that Adjusters are an actual part of an individual’s mind. The mind we are given is a local universe variant of the cosmic mind within time and space. If that mind is within time and space, don’t you think the Adjuster who is residing there would also be within time and space. The fact that the Adjuster can traverse space timelessly has nothing to do with where he resides. The fact that the Adjuster himself is timeless, spaceless, and without beginning or end has no relevance to where he is residing. He resides as a very part of a mortal, finite mind.

Thought Adjusters are definite individualizations of the prepersonal reality of the Universal Father, actually indwelling the mortal mind as a very part of that mind, and they ever work in perfect harmony with the combined spirits of the Creator Son and Creative Spirit. 34:5:6

Respectfully,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
The Divine Counselor tells us that the word "God" requires different definitions on each level. The blanket use of the word God is otherwise confusing.


My apologies. I was referring to God the Father, God the Son and God the Spirit. No one owns words. We just use them, so I did not agree to use the definition provided. I will agree to this use in the future. But even The Divine Counselor has no claim to words. It is only by convention that convene ideas. The admission to words as symbols belies their removal from reality.

Rexford wrote:
Where do the personalities of God the Sevenfold reside then? It says in the following quote that God the Sevenfold is Deity personalized in time and space. God the Sevenfold consists of actual personalities. Where do they reside? Are they only on Paradise? I don't think so.


There is only three places in The Master Universe where personalities can reside. Paradise, Havona, and time-space. The Holy Trinity can only be stationary in Paradise.

Rexford wrote:
How Adjusters traverse space is immaterial to where they reside. They have a definite residence at different phases of their existence. Their home sphere and rendevouz place is called Divinington. When they leave Divinington they go somewhere. Where do they go? They go to a place in time and in space where they indwell. Indwell is defined as being present within a mind for a period of time. That mind is in time and in space. Adjusters descend, which means they move down through time and space to reside in a material mind functioning within time and space. Their timelessness has nothing at all to do with where they reside.


Adjuster do not travel through space they travel relative to space and not in time. This travel is not akin to motion. Divinington is in Havona. Havona is not a time creation. The Adjusters do not enter time-space. Havona is at the nucleus of every ultimaton in the Universe of Universes. Where ever there exists an ultimaton, Havona and Diviningtion are at the center of the Ultimaton. When an adjuster 'leaves' Divinington, they are already everywhere there is an ultimaton, they do not move.

Havona has no position in space. The nucleus of the ultimaton is not time-space. When you talk of being outside of time-space, position, velocity etc. have no meaning. The Adjuster are in the mind domain and this is a puzzle.

MannyC wrote:
118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displace space, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern—the reality—of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.


We do not know if the mind is in time-space, the brain certainly is. Adjusters cannot move because you can only move in time and Adjusters are fragments of God the Father. The Father does not move, the Father does not change. Neither can an Adjuster.

Rexford wrote:
Adventures OF time IN space, is what it says. What is an adventure of time? It seems to me if you hare having an adventure of hiking, you would be hiking. An adventure of marriage would involve marriage; an adventure of space travel would put you in space. An adventure of time puts you in time. Then, the quote goes on to say IN space. An adventure of time takes place in space. It seems to me that the adventure is all about time and space for the Adjusters. If they are not in time and space, where are they?


This is most definitely a typo in the book. I am glad you noted it. I did not. Time cannot cannot be IN space because time and space are inseparable. Or they refer to time as in the vernacular, "the times of our lives". Time is orthogonal to space. They cannot be inside one another. The Adjuster are not in time-space, they are outside of time-space. You cannot write time and space, or time in space and be correct. The relationship between circular time and hyperbolic time is orthogonal everywhere. Time moves and space moves and they must maintain the same relationship throughout the motions of time-space.

Havona is in space but not the space of time-space. It is a unique space, exclusive to Havona. Since Havona is not a time creation, its unique "space" is geometrically parabolic rather then hyperbolic, as is the space of time-space. Parabolic space cannot relate to time orthogonally and cannot join with time orthogonally. Geometrically a parabola cannot intersect (relate) to a circle in a perpendicular fashion. While Infinite circles can intersect infinite hyperbolas at right angles. In other words time IN space is a nonsense term, because you cannot have infinite circles inside a infinite hyperbolas.

Rexford wrote:
If you do a search for both ultimaton and Havona, it comes up empty, so I do not know where you got that information.


That is true, but Paradise and Havona are a package deal. Can't have one without the other.


Rexford wrote:
If the Unqualified Absolute is not in time and space then how does it become conditioned by what is in time and space?


It is not conditioned by time-space. And it is misleading to write "time and space" , it is time-space. They are not separate. It's not like Jack and Jill.

Rexford wrote:
Where did you get the information that Adjusters are spirit patterns? I don’t think that exists in the Papers. If you have the quote, please share. In the quote below it says that Adjusters are an actual part of an individual’s mind. The mind we are given is a local universe variant of the cosmic mind within time and space. If that mind is within time and space, don’t you think the Adjuster who is residing there would also be within time and space. The fact that the Adjuster can traverse space timelessly has nothing to do with where he resides. The fact that the Adjuster himself is timeless, spaceless, and without beginning or end has no relevance to where he is residing. He resides as a very part of a mortal, finite mind.


Adjuster are Spirit because Father is Spirit. Pattern configures energy, even Spirit energy. Mind is not spatial because it is clear that ideas do not contain space. Without space there is not time. The Adjuster resides everywhere because mind is everywhere.


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i dont think the bit in the original post about gabriel vs. lucifer has anything to do with the thread title/question but anyway regarding gabriel and the administration of justice "vs." gods love and mercy it might help to understand that justice is always a collective action and mercy is always the work of the individual and that justice and mercy are functionally united in reality...as expressed and explained way better here:

“‘Ganid, it is true, you do not understand. Mercy ministry is always the work of the individual, but justice punishment is the function of the social, governmental, or universe administrative groups. As an individual I am beholden to show mercy; I must go to the rescue of the assaulted lad, and in all consistency I may employ sufficient force to restrain the aggressor. And that is just what I did. I achieved the deliverance of the assaulted lad; that was the end of mercy ministry. Then I forcibly detained the aggressor a sufficient length of time to enable the weaker party to the dispute to make his escape, after which I withdraw from the affair. I did not proceed to sit in judgment on the aggressor, thus to pass upon his motive—to adjudicate all that entered into his attack upon his fellow—and then undertake to execute the punishment which my mind might dictate as just recompense for his wrongdoing. Ganid, mercy may be lavish, but justice is precise. Cannot you discern that no two persons are likely to agree as to the punishment which would satisfy the demands of justice? One would impose forty lashes, another twenty, while still another would advise solitary confinement as a just punishment. Can you not see that on this world such responsibilities had better rest upon the group or be administered by chosen representatives of the group? In the universe, judgment is vested in those who fully know the antecedents of all wrongdoing as well as its motivation. In civilized society and in an organized universe the administration of justice presupposes the passing of just sentence consequent upon fair judgment, and such prerogatives are vested in the juridical groups of the worlds and in the all-knowing administrators of the higher universes of all creation.’” (1469.1) 133:1.2

“Justice is inherent in the universal sovereignty of the Paradise Trinity, but goodness, mercy, and truth are the universe ministry of the divine personalities, whose Deity union constitutes the Trinity. Justice is not the attitude of the Father, the Son, or the Spirit. Justice is the Trinity attitude of these personalities of love, mercy, and ministry. No one of the Paradise Deities fosters the administration of justice. Justice is never a personal attitude; it is always a plural function.” (114.3) 10:6.2

“Justice is the collective thought of righteousness; mercy is its personal expression. Mercy is the attitude of love; precision characterizes the operation of law; divine judgment is the soul of fairness, ever conforming to the justice of the Trinity, ever fulfilling the divine love of God. When fully perceived and completely understood, the righteous justice of the Trinity and the merciful love of the Universal Father are coincident. But man has no such full understanding of divine justice. Thus in the Trinity, as man would view it, the personalities of Father, Son, and Spirit are adjusted to co-ordinate ministry of love and law in the experiential universes of time.” (115.2) 10:6.18

“Only the discernment of infinite wisdom enables a righteous God to minister justice and mercy at the same time and in any given universe situation. The heavenly Father is never torn by conflicting attitudes towards his universe children; God is never a victim of attitudinal antagonisms. God’s all-knowingness unfailingly directs his free will in the choosing of that universe conduct which perfectly, simultaneously, and equally satisfies the demands of all his divine attributes and the infinite qualities of his eternal nature.” (38.3) 2:4.3

“There are many reasons known to us why the Supreme Rulers did not immediately destroy or intern the leaders of the Lucifer rebellion. There are no doubt still other and possibly better reasons unknown to us. The mercy features of this delay in the execution of justice were extended personally by Michael of Nebadon. Except for the affection of this Creator-father for his erring Sons, the supreme justice of the superuniverse would have acted. If such an episode as the Lucifer rebellion had occurred in Nebadon while Michael was incarnated on Urantia, the instigators of such evil might have been instantly and absolutely annihilated.” (616.4) 54:4.5

“Supreme justice can act instantly when not restrained by divine mercy. But the ministry of mercy to the children of time and space always provides for this time lag, this saving interval between seedtime and harvest. If the seed sowing is good, this interval provides for the testing and upbuilding of character; if the seed sowing is evil, this merciful delay provides time for repentance and rectification. This time delay in the adjudication and execution of evildoers is inherent in the mercy ministry of the seven superuniverses. This restraint of justice by mercy proves that God is love, and that such a God of love dominates the universes and in mercy controls the fate and judgment of all his creatures.” (616.5) 54:4.6


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Greetings Louis,

MannyC wrote:
I did not agree to use the definition provided.


That makes it harder to communicate Louis. While we are studying the Urantia Book, why not use the definitions in the book?

MannyC wrote:
Rexford wrote:
Where do the personalities of God the Sevenfold reside then? It says in the following quote that God the Sevenfold is Deity personalized in time and space. God the Sevenfold consists of actual personalities. Where do they reside? Are they only on Paradise? I don't think so.


There is only three places in The Master Universe where personalities can reside. Paradise, Havona, and time-space. The Holy Trinity can only be stationary in Paradise.


Louis, your answer has nothing to do with my question. I asked where the personalities of God the Sevenfold reside? God the Sevenfold is not the Trinity. God the Sevenfold is personalized, actual personalities. Where are they?

5. God the Sevenfold — Deity personality anywhere actually functioning in time and space. The personal Paradise Deities and their creative associates functioning in and beyond the borders of the central universe and power-personalizing as the Supreme Being on the first creature level of unifying Deity revelation in time and space. This level, the grand universe, is the sphere of the time-space descension of Paradise personalities in reciprocal association with the time-space ascension of evolutionary creatures. 0:2:16

God the Sevenfold is more than functioning Trinity. There is actual time-space descension of these personalities. Where do they go? Perhaps in the seven superuniverses?

MannyC wrote:
The Adjusters do not enter time-space.


They certainly do. This quote says that God is actually present ON the worlds of space as the Adjuster.

Although the Universal Father is personally resident on Paradise, at the very center of the universes, he is also actually present on the worlds of space in the minds of his countless children of time, for he indwells them as the Mystery Monitors. The eternal Father is at one and the same time farthest removed from, and most intimately associated with, his planetary mortal sons. 107:0:1

We know very little concerning their careers until they arrive on the planets of time to indwell human minds,- 107:1:3

And it is entirely possible that an Adjuster could be roaming the master universe simultaneously with being at one with the omnipresent Father. 107:2:5

MannyC wrote:
Havona is at the nucleus of every ultimaton in the Universe of Universes. Where ever there exists an ultimaton, Havona and Diviningtion are at the center of the Ultimaton.


You still have not produced a quote stating that. I, on the other hand, have given you a quote that states that Paradise is in the nucleus of every ultimaton. I am waiting and until you produce a quote I have to assume your words are pure fabrication. You say that you cannot have Paradise without Havona, but that has nothing to do with the ultimaton. The ultimaton is part of material matter. Nether Paradise is the pattern source for all matter, not Havona.

Ultimatonic matter - the prime physical units of material existence, the energy particles which go to make up electrons.42:3:3
But there is something of mystery associated with the universal force-charge of space; we quite understand the organization of the material creations from the ultimatonic stage forward, but we do not fully comprehend the cosmic ancestry of the ultimatons. We are confident that these ancestral forces have a Paradise origin because they forever swing through pervaded space in the exact gigantic outlines of Paradise. 15:4:1
Any and all that responds to the material-gravity circuit centering in nether Paradise, we call matter — energy-matter in all its metamorphic states.0:6:1


MannyC wrote:
When an adjuster 'leaves' Divinington, they are already everywhere there is an ultimaton, they do not move.


What does a piece of matter have to do with Adjusters who are spirit? Adjusters descend. Descending requires motion. The definition of the word descend is to move downward. The Adjusters move downward to the planets of time and space and they reside ON them IN the minds of their creatures. That does not mean that they are not simultaneously with the Father as quote 107:2:5 states. Presumably it is due to the personality circuit.

In the universes God the Father is, in potential, the overcontroller of matter, mind, and spirit. Only by means of his far-flung personality circuit does God deal directly with the personalities of his vast creation of will creatures, but he is contactable (outside of Paradise) only in the presences of his fragmented entities, the will of God abroad in the universes. This Paradise spirit that indwells the minds of the mortals of time and there fosters the evolution of the immortal soul of the surviving creature is of the nature and divinity of the Universal Father. 1:3:6

MannyC wrote:
Havona has no position in space.


I get the impression that you think Havona and the Isle of Paradise are one and the same thing. They are not. Havana is the universe that surrounds the Isle of Paradise. The Isle of Paradise is stationary; Havona moves. Paradise has no position in space, but Havona does, because it is in space and it moves.

Paradise is the geographic center of infinity; it is not a part of universal creation, not even a real part of the eternal Havona universe. We commonly refer to the central Isle as belonging to the divine universe, but it really does not. Paradise is an eternal and exclusive existence. 11:9:2

The central universe whirls around the stationary Isle of Paradise in one vast plane, 14:1:10

MannyC wrote:
We do not know if the mind is in time-space, the brain certainly is.


Yes we do know. In fact we know that mind is both time and space bound, time less than space. The timelessness of infinite mind is ancestral to material mind but part of the material mind. Therefore, human mind cannot fall through cracks in time. Human mind is a local universe phenomenon only..

Man's mind is less time-bound than space-bound because of the inherent nature of mind. Even during the days of the earth life in the flesh, though man's mind is rigidly space-bound, the creative human imagination is comparatively time free. But time itself is not genetically a quality of mind. 12:5:5

MannyC wrote:
Adjusters cannot move because you can only move in time and Adjusters are fragments of God the Father. The Father does not move, the Father does not change. Neither can an Adjuster.


If Adjusters don't move, what happens when they leave their host? They move to a new location. They never move back to the same planet if survival of their host is denied. Jesus actually watched his personalized Adjuster descend from Paradise at his baptism. Something must have been moving if he was watching.

MannyC wrote:
This is most definitely a typo in the book. I am glad you noted it. I did not.


Exquisite arrogance Louis.

MannyC wrote:
Rexford wrote:
If the Unqualified Absolute is not in time and space then how does it become conditioned by what is in time and space?
It is not conditioned by time-space. And it is misleading to write "time and space" , it is time-space. They are not separate. It's not like Jack and Jill.


Then why is the Unqualified Absolute time-space modified in God the Sevenfold?

The Unqualified Absolute and the Deity Absolute are unified in the Universal Absolute. The Absolutes are co-ordinated in the Ultimate, conditioned in the Supreme, and time-space modified in God the Sevenfold. On subinfinite levels there are three Absolutes, but in infinity they appear to be one. On Paradise there are three personalizations of Deity, but in the Trinity they are one. 56:9:1

MannyC wrote:
Adjuster are Spirit because Father is Spirit. Pattern configures energy, even Spirit energy. Mind is not spatial because it is clear that ideas do not contain space. Without space there is not time. The Adjuster resides everywhere because mind is everywhere.


There is nothing at all in the text that says Adjusters are pattern. Personality is pattern, so Adjuster personalities would be pre-pattern and pre-will. Adjusters also have pre-mind, but mind is not pattern and human mind is space bound, meaning constrained to space. Pre-mind is outside the circuits of the Infinite Spirit (6:6:3).

But the presence phenomenon of a personality or the pattern of an identity, as such, is not a manifestation of energy, either physical, mindal, or spiritual. The personality form is the pattern aspect of a living being; it connotes the arrangement of energies, and this, plus life and motion, is the mechanism of creature existence. 42:12:2

Personality or identity forms are patterns resultant from energy (physical, spiritual, or mindal) but are not inherent therein. 0:6:12


You as a personal creature have mind and will. The Adjuster as a prepersonal creature has premind and prewill. 110:2:5

Respectfully,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
That makes it harder to communicate Louis. While we are studying the Urantia Book, why not use the definitions in the book?


You have done this too so cut the crap.

Rexford wrote:
Louis, your answer has nothing to do with my question. I asked where the personalities of God the Sevenfold reside? God the Sevenfold is not the Trinity. God the Sevenfold is personalized, actual personalities. Where are they?


They are in relation to space but not in space. If space is the area where three mutually orthogonal infinite planes separate eight spaces, God the Sevenfold is on the planes that extend from the point they all mutually touch.


Rexford wrote:
God the Sevenfold is more than functioning Trinity. There is actual time-space descension of these personalities. Where do they go? Perhaps in the seven superuniverses?


Nowhere in space but are in the infinite planes that extend into space from every point in space. Space is a system associated points. Each and every point is the one center from which Infinite planes extend from the point that is the I AM.

You must be able to conceptualize space as an expanding and contracting hyperbolic orthogonally married to circular time. I can email PDF version of my explanations if you like just PM your email address.

Rexford wrote:
MannyC wrote:
The Adjusters do not enter time-space.


They certainly do. This quote says that God is actually present ON the worlds of space as the Adjuster.


Does God the Father move? NO. Tell me how the adjust move if they do not contain space. Matter is in space and contains space. Spirit does not contain space but exists relative to space.


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Rexford wrote:
I get the impression that you think Havona and the Isle of Paradise are one and the same thing. They are not. Havana is the universe that surrounds the Isle of Paradise. The Isle of Paradise is stationary; Havona moves. Paradise has no position in space, but Havona does, because it is in space and it moves.


Hay, I was born in Havana.

14:2.6 All natural law is co-ordinated on a basis entirely different than in the dual-energy systems of the evolving creations. The entire central universe is organized in accordance with the threefold system of perfect and symmetrical control. Throughout the whole Paradise-Havona system there is maintained a perfect balance between all cosmic realities and all spiritual forces. Paradise, with an absolute grasp of material creation, perfectly regulates and maintains the physical energies of this central universe; the Eternal Son, as a part of his all-embracing spirit grasp, most perfectly sustains the spiritual status of all who indwell Havona. On Paradise nothing is experimental, and the Paradise-Havona system is a unit of creative perfection.

What does a unit meant to you?

Havona moves but is not a time creation. Explain that if you can. What is the space in Havona if time and space are inseparable and Havona is not a time creation? What is the position of Havona in space? And is this the space of time-space or some other kind of space?


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12:1.10 Havona, the central universe, is not a time creation; it is an eternal existence. This never-beginning, never-ending universe consists of one billion spheres of sublime perfection and is surrounded by the enormous dark gravity bodies. At the center of Havona is the stationary and absolutely stabilized Isle of Paradise, surrounded by its twenty-one satellites. Owing to the enormous encircling masses of the dark gravity bodies about the fringe of the central universe, the mass content of this central creation is far in excess of the total known mass of all seven sectors of the grand universe.


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Greetings Louis,

MannyC wrote:
Havona moves but is not a time creation. Explain that if you can. What is the space in Havona if time and space are inseparable and Havona is not a time creation? What is the position of Havona in space? And is this the space of time-space or some other kind of space?


Havana is absonite. Absonite reality transcends time-space.
Paradise is absolute. Time and space are not existent on absolute reality levels.

The absonite level of reality is characterized by things and beings without beginnings or endings and by the transcendence of time and space. Absoniters are not created; they are eventuated — they simply are. The Deity level of Ultimacy connotes a function in relation to absonite realities. No matter in what part of the master universe, whenever time and space are transcended, such an absonite phenomenon is an act of the Ultimacy of Deity. 0:1:12

The absolute level is beginningless, endless, timeless, and spaceless. For example: On Paradise, time and space are nonexistent; the time-space status of Paradise is absolute. This level is Trinity attained, existentially, by the Paradise Deities, but this third level of unifying Deity expression is not fully unified experientially. Whenever, wherever, and however the absolute level of Deity functions, Paradise-absolute values and meanings are manifest. 0:1:13


Havana is positioned around the Isle of Paradise. It is an elliptical, delimited physical universe which encircles Paradise.

The Paradise-Havona System, the eternal universe encircling the eternal Isle, constitutes the perfect and eternal nucleus of the master universe; all seven of the superuniverses and all regions of outer space revolve in established orbits around the gigantic central aggregation of the Paradise satellites and the Havona spheres. 12:1:11

Rexford


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It's OK Rexford. It is the family that Father cares about.

Peace


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Rexford wrote:
Havana is positioned around the Isle of Paradise.


More like the Isle of Cuba. O:)

It's OK, I make many more mistakes than you. I often buy the wrong vowel on Wheel of Fortune. But I was born in Havana. Perhaps if I were born in Havona I would not make so many mistakes. I thank God for many things but I thank God for humor O:)

May peace always be with you, Rexford.


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Greetings Louis,

MannyC wrote:
It's OK Rexford. It is the family that Father cares about.
Peace


I think God the Father also cares about the truth Louis.

MannyC wrote:
But I was born in Havana. Perhaps if I were born in Havona I would not make so many mistakes.


I do not think God the Father cares very much where you were born. Making mistakes is human and part the beauty of having been born imperfect. Perfect beings envy our ability to make mistakes.

The full appreciation of truth, beauty, and goodness is inherent in the perfection of the divine universe. The inhabitants of the Havona worlds do not require the potential of relative value levels as a choice stimulus; such perfect beings are able to identify and choose the good in the absence of all contrastive and thought-compelling moral situations. But all such perfect beings are, in moral nature and spiritual status, what they are by virtue of the fact of existence. They have experientially earned advancement only within their inherent status. Mortal man earns even his status as an ascension candidate by his own faith and hope. Everything divine which the human mind grasps and the human soul acquires is an experiential attainment; it is a reality of personal experience and is therefore a unique possession in contrast to the inherent goodness and righteousness of the inerrant personalities of Havona.

The creatures of Havona are naturally brave, but they are not courageous in the human sense. They are innately kind and considerate, but hardly altruistic in the human way. They are expectant of a pleasant future, but not hopeful in the exquisite manner of the trusting mortal of the uncertain evolutionary spheres. They have faith in the stability of the universe, but they are utter strangers to that saving faith whereby mortal man climbs from the status of an animal up to the portals of Paradise. They love the truth, but they know nothing of its soul-saving qualities. They are idealists, but they were born that way; they are wholly ignorant of the ecstasy of becoming such by exhilarating choice. They are loyal, but they have never experienced the thrill of wholehearted and intelligent devotion to duty in the face of temptation to default. They are unselfish, but they never gained such levels of experience by the magnificent conquest of a belligerent self. They enjoy pleasure, but they do not comprehend the sweetness of the pleasure escape from the pain potential. 3:5:16-17


Respectfully,
Rexford


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It's interesting, this forum is a virtual study group of the Urantia Book, but it's beginning to dawn on me that actually, we're studying each other, with the Urantia Book as our nucleus.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
It's interesting, this forum is a virtual study group of the Urantia Book, but it's beginning to dawn on me that actually, we're studying each other, with the Urantia Book as our nucleus.


Nice observation Nod. BTW I must say that I have always appreciated your sense of humor. I miss the pictures.

Peace


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MannyC wrote:
Is brother Gabriel's plea for the annihilation of the archrebels a loving act? Is it God's will that a brother plea for the destruction of others?


Simply put: yes! absolutely! In absolute terms even :)

If we are to believe and learn what has been told to us by the revelators then we know that the "arch rebels" had in principle effected their own annihilation. Their living connection with the reality of the Master Universe and its unseen controllers and maintainers had been severed long ago. They are effectively spiritual zombies who walk and talk but are apparently the spiritual equivalent of robots whose movements are accomplished by their remaining energy charge and prior programming.

Gabriel's plea is a rather courageous call to recognize that fact and to look ahead to the cleaning up of old, dead cobwebs that still add rather heavy burdens, hardships and dangers to millions upon billions of struggling ascenders and maintainers of the local universe. As first son, he is naturally first to realize and express that simple truth.

If you were to encounter a fatally injured deer on a country road that was hit by a driver that fled the scene, you would have the courage to use your gun (given that you carried such a weapon) to end the misery and suffering of the animal wouldn't you? In such a hypothetical case it is not fair or honest to simply wave away the question by claiming that you would never carry such a weapon. In that case you are condemning the animal to further misery and suffering. Isn't the *perfect* and loving thing to do to both have the means to end its suffering and summoning the courage to actually do so?


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Riktare wrote:
Simply put: yes! absolutely! In absolute terms even
[. . .]

In short "Riktare", we can take a quote from "Star Trek", where "The needs of the many, out way the needs of the one, or the few."

If there is no hope to change the minds of those who, insist on contrary methods, to make change, and the reasons for change are not specifically identified, which can be said that the UB leaves much open for speculation and narrates much opinion as fact, it can be understood that some will favor mercy until all the evidence can be presented. That being said, the well being of the meany must take presidence, and sometimes corrective measures, which may not be exacting to the cause, are necessary, even if there is a veil shrouding truth from the effects?


Last edited by MidiChlorian on Thu Sep 01, 2016 9:50 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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