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Greetings slyde,

I think apologies are only valid if they are accompanied by a sincere desire for forgiveness. Apologizing because you assume it comes with forgiveness is folly. The only way to be forgiven is if you forgive others. If the husband goes back and beats the wife, he has not forgiven her for her alleged transgression, therefore he will not be forgiven when he apologizes. No sincerity, no forgiveness, and no change in behavior. It is a vicious cycle of sin.

Jesus taught that sin is not the child of a defective nature but rather the offspring of a knowing mind dominated by an unsubmissive will. Regarding sin, he taught that God has forgiven; that we make such forgiveness personally available by the act of forgiving our fellows. When you forgive your brother in the flesh, you thereby create the capacity in your own soul for the reception of the reality of God's forgiveness of your own misdeeds. 170:2:23

As an illustration, the Parable of the Lost Son is a parable about salvation from error and sin. Salvation does not presume upon divine forgiveness. It demands the sinner ask for forgiveness by changing his behavior toward others, also known as repentance. It is the sinner who must forgive in order to create the capacity for, and the realization of, the father's forgiveness. The emphasis in this story is not on the father forgiving. The father rejoices when the erring son forgives.

Respectfully,
Rexford


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slyde wrote:
"Only God can imagine and create" We are His children, do not the children inherit the attributes of the parents?


The answer is no. God the Father is the only Person that bestows personality. The Holy Trinity is eternal, we are not. God is perfect. We will never will be perfect as God is perfect. This too is relative.


slyde wrote:
I have a friend/acquaintance who apologies a lot for her rash behavior. Is this a personality type? I believe it is. How to help such a person I haven't a clue . Anyone here have some UB quotes that might apply?



133:3.6 When in Rome, Ganid observed that Jesus refused to accompany them to the public baths. Several times afterward the young man sought to induce Jesus further to express himself in regard to the relations of the sexes. Though he would answer the lad’s questions, he never seemed disposed to discuss these subjects at great length. One evening as they strolled about Corinth out near where the wall of the citadel ran down to the sea, they were accosted by two public women. Ganid had imbibed the idea, and rightly, that Jesus was a man of high ideals, and that he abhorred everything which partook of uncleanness or savored of evil; accordingly he spoke sharply to these women and rudely motioned them away. When Jesus saw this, he said to Ganid: “You mean well, but you should not presume thus to speak to the children of God, even though they chance to be his erring children. Who are we that we should sit in judgment on these women? Do you happen to know all of the circumstances which led them to resort to such methods of obtaining a livelihood? Stop here with me while we talk about these matters.” The courtesans were astonished at what he said even more than was Ganid.



133:3.7 As they stood there in the moonlight, Jesus went on to say: “There lives within every human mind a divine spirit, the gift of the Father in heaven. This good spirit ever strives to lead us to God, to help us to find God and to know God; but also within mortals there are many natural physical tendencies which the Creator put there to serve the well-being of the individual and the race. Now, oftentimes, men and women become confused in their efforts to understand themselves and to grapple with the manifold difficulties of making a living in a world so largely dominated by selfishness and sin. I perceive, Ganid, that neither of these women is willfully wicked. I can tell by their faces that they have experienced much sorrow; they have suffered much at the hands of an apparently cruel fate; they have not intentionally chosen this sort of life; they have, in discouragement bordering on despair, surrendered to the pressure of the hour and accepted this distasteful means of obtaining a livelihood as the best way out of a situation that to them appeared hopeless. Ganid, some people are really wicked at heart; they deliberately choose to do mean things, but, tell me, as you look into these now tear-stained faces, do you see anything bad or wicked?” And as Jesus paused for his reply, Ganid's voice choked up as he stammered out his answer: “No, Teacher, I do not. And I apologize for my rudeness to them—I crave their forgiveness.” Then said Jesus: “And I bespeak for them that they have forgiven you as I speak for my Father in heaven that he has forgiven them. Now all of you come with me to a friend's house where we will seek refreshment and plan for the new and better life ahead.” Up to this time the amazed women had not uttered a word; they looked at each other and silently followed as the men led the way.


Last edited by MannyC on Fri Jul 29, 2016 10:23 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Rexford wrote:
As an illustration, the Parable of the Lost Son is a parable about salvation from error and sin. Salvation does not presume upon divine forgiveness. It demands the sinner ask for forgiveness by changing his behavior toward others, also known as repentance. It is the sinner who must forgive in order to create the capacity for, and the realization of, the father's forgiveness. The emphasis in this story is not on the father forgiving. The father rejoices when the erring son forgives.


Rexford, you only tell half of the story. Does the father rejoice that the elder son cannot seem to forgive the younger erring brother? The younger erring son repents and the father forgives him before the son asks. We know this because the father sees the son from afar and runs out to embrace him.

...even while he was yet afar off, the father saw him and, being moved with loving compassion, ran out to meet him, and with affectionate greeting he embraced and kissed him. 169:1.9

It is the elder righteous son that refuses to come to the table and celebrate the return of his brother. This parable is open ended. I suspect that the father still grieves that this son cannot forgive while rejoicing at the salvation of the younger son.

169:1.13 “Since this father truly loved both of his sons, he tried to reason with this older one: `But, my son, you have all the while been with me, and all this which I have is yours. You could have had a kid at any time you had made friends to share your merriment. But it is only proper that you should now join with me in being glad and merry because of your brother's return. Think of it, my son, your brother was lost and is found; he has returned alive to us!'”


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Greetings,

Another thing to remember about forgiveness is that it does not erase the immediate consequences of sin. We all have to bear the consequences of, not only our own sins, but the sins of others. It takes time to reconcile the repercussions of sin. The battered wife may stop being battered by her husband, but she bears the material scars of his sins on her broken body and psyche for life, even if she forgives him. It is the attitude with which she bears her burden that makes a difference in her life. Brooding and sulking over her lot in life will only make things worse. If she lives in gratitude for having been saved, she can bear her burden lightly, she can forget about herself and recognize her divine right. As they say, attitude is everything. The elder brother in the parable was just learning about this.

But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment. 54:6:4

"No more should you fear that God will punish a nation for the sin of an individual; neither will the Father in heaven punish one of his believing children for the sins of a nation, albeit the individual member of any family must often suffer the material consequences of family mistakes and group transgressions. Do you not realize that the hope of a better nation — or a better world — is bound up in the progress and enlightenment of the individual?" 145:2:8

Respectfully,
Rexford


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MannyC wrote:
slyde wrote:
"Only God can imagine and create" We are His children, do not the children inherit the attributes of the parents?


The answer is no. God the Father is the only Person that bestows personality.


Manny, these are two completely different subjects. Slyde is referring to an ability to "imagine and create" and you respond with a fact about "personality". These are not interchangeable terms. I do not think anyone here would dispute your statement that God the Father is the only Person that bestows personality. That is correct.

Some of us, though, are not entirely convinced of your opinion that "Only God can imagine and create". Personality is not related to an ability to imagine or to create ideas, to build things, to conceptualize new philosophies. These are intellectual capabilities.

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0:5.11 (9.1) Personality. The personality of mortal man is neither body, mind, nor spirit; neither is it the soul. Personality is the one changeless reality in an otherwise ever-changing creature experience; and it unifies all other associated factors of individuality. The personality is the unique bestowal which the Universal Father makes upon the living and associated energies of matter, mind, and spirit, and which survives with the survival of the morontial soul.


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(102.6) 9:4.6 Mind transmutes the values of spirit into the meanings of intellect; volition has power to bring the meanings of mind to fruit in both the material and spiritual domains. The Paradise ascent involves a relative and differential growth in spirit, mind, and energy. The personality is the unifier of these components of experiential individuality.


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Greetings Agon,

Both you and slyde are correct. It is mind that is creative. Mind is creative even in the absence of personality (see quote 65:6:7 below). It is the free will of the personality that chooses to use the creative mind in order to create. Personality unifies mind, body and soul with creation (reality). Co-creation begins when the mind discovers, recognizes and interprets reality, followed by the personality choosing to make potential creativity an actual creation according to God's will. The act is ours and the consequences his.

Mind is always creative. 42:12:9
The lower forms of plant life are wholly responsive to physical, chemical, and electrical environment. But as the scale of life ascends, one by one the mind ministries of the seven adjutant spirits become operative, and the mind becomes increasingly adjustive, creative, co-ordinative, and dominative. The ability of animals to adapt themselves to air, water, and land is not a supernatural endowment, but it is a superphysical adjustment. 65:6:7


Respectfully,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
The act is ours and the consequences his.


This is because the primal act was His, in the eternal past.

Rexford wrote:
Co-creation begins when the mind discovers, recognizes and interprets reality, followed by the personality choosing to make potential creativity an actual creation according to God's will. The act is ours and the consequences his.


It is important to distinguish between creation and co-creation. Again, we are in the semantic weeds of the English language. God the Father is the First Source and Center. There can be only one center. As in Concentric circles, the center can be shared. Co-creation is a reality. But creation, primal creation, is the prerogative of the First Source and Center.

The act is always ours because He acted first, in the eternal past. The consequences are His because He is the Upholder.

Agon D. Onter wrote:
Some of us, though, are not entirely convinced of your opinion that "Only God can imagine and create". Personality is not related to an ability to imagine or to create ideas, to build things, to conceptualize new philosophies. These are intellectual capabilities.


Agon D. Onter wrote:
Quote:
(102.6) 9:4.6 Mind transmutes the values of spirit into the meanings of intellect; volition has power to bring the meanings of mind to fruit in both the material and spiritual domains. The Paradise ascent involves a relative and differential growth in spirit, mind, and energy. The personality is the unifier of these components of experiential individuality.


It seems to me that personality is involved in creative activities, whether they be primal or delegated. Don't you think?


Rexford wrote:
The elder brother in the parable was just learning about this.


Rexford, while it is true that as Jesus tells the story, the elder son was just learning of the brother's return, it is also true that Jesus told this story many times and he never told of the happy ending of reconciliation between the brothers. Instead, he left the parable story open ended. Why, do you suppose? The parable is clear that the father tried to reason with the elder brother and one has to conclude, that for the time being, the elder son was not listening to reason or council from the father, or anyone else for that matter.


Rexford wrote:
But one thing should be made clear: If you are made to suffer the evil consequences of the sin of some member of your family, some fellow citizen or fellow mortal, even rebellion in the system or elsewhere — no matter what you may have to endure because of the wrongdoing of your associates, fellows, or superiors — you may rest secure in the eternal assurance that such tribulations are transient afflictions. None of these fraternal consequences of misbehavior in the group can ever jeopardize your eternal prospects or in the least degree deprive you of your divine right of Paradise ascension and God attainment. 54:6:4


I am grateful to this Mighty Messenger for this reassurance. Paper 53 seemed to me to be so much darker, ominous even.


Last edited by MannyC on Fri Jul 29, 2016 4:07 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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One more thing about the concentric circles that are on the banner of Michael. Since there can be only one center, we can co-create only if we are centered in Him who imagined us. If you presume to create outside that one center, you have created a false god. You have made your own center apart from God. This is the evil of idolatry. This is not concentric, this is eccentric.


196:3.23 The idealization and attempted service of truth, beauty, and goodness is not a substitute for genuine religious experience—spiritual reality. Psychology and idealism are not the equivalent of religious reality. The projections of the human intellect may indeed originate false gods—gods in man's image—but the true God- consciousness does not have such an origin. The God-consciousness is resident in the indwelling spirit. Many of the religious systems of man come from the formulations of the human intellect, but the God-consciousness is not necessarily a part of these grotesque systems of religious slavery.


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I ask that the personal accusations against Agon D. Onter cease.

And with what is slyde suggesting, that those who are making excuses for their own behaviours do fall short of finding forgiveness. It is totally appropriate to remind us.

Further, there is something out of the human demand to authenticate the reality of his own endeavors of creation by attributing his own creavitities to an unseen source. You are trying to split hairs, and you cannot rely on the text for even the name father may be abused as in a golden calf. The idea here is that human individuality must be joined, must join, inevitably towards/with that innate desire for perfection that does flourish in the auspices of wisdom.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
I ask that the personal accusations against Agon D. Onter cease.


I have told all of you, it will no longer come from me.


SEla_Kelly wrote:
And with what is slyde suggesting, that those who are making excuses for their own behaviours do fall short of finding forgiveness.


Forgiveness is a gift. There is no need to search for forgiveness, for it is already found. It has found us. It needs only to be given as it is received.


SEla_Kelly wrote:
Further, there is something out of the human demand to authenticate the reality of his own endeavors of creation by attributing his own creavitities to an unseen source.


We are nothing without the Father in heaven. I attribute all to the Father, the First Source and Center.


SEla_Kelly wrote:
You are trying to split hairs, and you cannot rely on the text for even the name father may be abused as in a golden calf. T


Did Jesus abuse the name of the Father?


(1965.3) 182:1.9 The Master, during the course of this final prayer with his apostles, alluded to the fact that he had manifested the Father’s name to the world. And that is truly what he did by the revelation of God through his perfected life in the flesh. The Father in heaven had sought to reveal himself to Moses, but he could proceed no further than to cause it to be said, “I AM.” And when pressed for further revelation of himself, it was only disclosed, “I AM that I AM.” But when Jesus had finished his earth life, this name of the Father had been so revealed that the Master, who was the Father incarnate, could truly say:
(1965.4) 182:1.10 I am the bread of life.
(1965.5) 182:1.11 I am the living water.
(1965.6) 182:1.12 I am the light of the world.
(1965.7) 182:1.13 I am the desire of all ages.
(1965. ) 182:1.14 I am the open door to eternal salvation.
(1965.9) 182:1.15 I am the reality of endless life.
(1965.10) 182:1.16 I am the good shepherd.
(1965.11) 182:1.17 I am the pathway of infinite perfection.
(1965.12) 182:1.18 I am the resurrection and the life.
(1965.13) 182:1.19 I am the secret of eternal survival.
(1965.14) 182:1.20 I am the way, the truth, and the life.
(1965.15) 182:1.21 I am the infinite Father of my finite children.
(1965.16) 182:1.22 I am the true vine; you are the branches.
(1965.17) 182:1.23 I am the hope of all who know the living truth.
(1965.18) 182:1.24 I am the living bridge from one world to another.
(1965.19) 182:1.25 I am the living link between time and eternity.
(1965.20) 182:1.26 Thus did Jesus enlarge the living revelation of the name of God to all generations. As divine love reveals the nature of God, eternal truth discloses his name in ever-enlarging proportions.


2:3.2 How futile to make puerile appeals to such a God to modify his changeless decrees so that we can avoid the just consequences of the operation of his wise natural laws and righteous spiritual mandates!"Be not deceived; God is not mocked, for whatsoever a man sows that shall he also reap."True, even in the justice of reaping the harvest of wrongdoing, this divine justice is always tempered with mercy. Infinite wisdom is the eternal arbiter which determines the proportions of justice and mercy which shall be meted out in any given circumstance. The greatest punishment (in reality an inevitable consequence) for wrongdoing and deliberate rebellion against the government of God is loss of existence as an individual subject of that government. The final result of wholehearted sin is annihilation. In the last analysis, such sin-identified individuals have destroyed themselves by becoming wholly unreal through their embrace of iniquity. The factual disappearance of such a creature is, however, always delayed until the ordained order of justice current in that universe has been fully complied with.


In such a reality, what is the wisdom of taking a brother to court? God is not mocked!


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Perhaps we are omitting the truth of God's purpose when we discuss forgiveness. Although I admit that there is no escape from a continuum of causality within the manifest universe kingdom, there is something about the ultimacy of God's we should remember will when we ignore the potential of each individual.

If we may each garner more of the attributes of Jesus' personality, we will not riddle ourselves as to why we do falter in certain instances, but to eradicate the case of selfishness of intent that may exist, so that we may mobilize the present potential ideal that is revealed within our minds. It is not exactly a "Re-"purposing, but a sometime reorientation for each individual within the demi-urgo of the omni-intent of God's will. Sometimes, it is plain, the act of forgiveness requires immersive divine intervention so as to rescue a wrongdoer so that the opportunity for doing good is appropriated towards that one.

I suppose this is only an attitude of forgiveness in the condition of the sinner. I need to consider the other individual whom has been sinned against, that "it is better to suffer injustice rather than go to justice against one's brethren." Such attitude makes it seem as though God is potentially unharmable, and if we is potentially supernal it would be wise to have such attitudes.

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SEla_Kelly wrote:
Perhaps we are omitting the truth of God's purpose when we discuss forgiveness. Although I admit that there is no escape from a continuum of causality within the manifest universe kingdom, there is something about the ultimacy of God's we should remember will when we ignore the potential of each individual.


I do not understand what you have written here Stephen. God's purpose is all in all. Do you subscribe to the Absoluteness of God, or are you speaking of God the Ultimate?

SEla_Kelly wrote:
If we may each garner more of the attributes of Jesus' personality, we will not riddle ourselves as to why we do falter in certain instances, but to eradicate the case of selfishness of intent that may exist, so that we may mobilize the present potential ideal that is revealed within our minds.


I do not see how we can garner more of the attributes of Jesus' personality.

48:6.26 Even on Urantia, these seraphim teach the everlasting truth: If your own mind does not serve you well, you can exchange it for the mind of Jesus of Nazareth, who always serves you well.

We are told that we can exchange our minds for the mind of Jesus.


SEla_Kelly wrote:
I suppose this is only an attitude of forgiveness in the condition of the sinner. I need to consider the other individual whom has been sinned against, that "it is better to suffer injustice rather than go to justice against one's brethren." Such attitude makes it seem as though God is potentially unharmable, and if we is potentially supernal it would be wise to have such attitudes.


I think that it is safe to say that God is beyond harm. His creation is beyond harm.


140:3.14 "I am sending you out into the world to represent me and to act as ambassadors of my Father's kingdom, and as you go forth to proclaim the glad tidings, put your trust in the Father whose messengers you are. Do not forcibly resist injustice; put not your trust in the arm of the flesh. If your neighbor smites you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. Be willing to suffer injustice rather than to go to law among yourselves. In kindness and with mercy minister to all who are in distress and in need.


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