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Is the Urantia Book meant to be probed analyzed and questioned, as it were, and are we the persons delegated or self-appointed to do so?

I believe this as a matter of personal fairness, admitting its relevence into the human experiences I have had, that any document whose authors attempt to explain Lucifer's folly, must adopt to some extent a "see for yourselves invitation". That we have self-honesty, admitting our finite nature or personal shortcomings, not blaming or relying upon exterior sources but trusting our personal judgments, we have the ability to question the text.

Obviously there are many things to question but since Urantia Papers appear to be written out of the need to address/redress man's relationship to God (vice versa), we must conclude that the purpose of the papers is not to be questioned, but that if we have questioned either the context of its publishment or the validity of its proclamations, we should adopt the truth thereof for ourselves and begin to live by it or at least judge ourselves by its standards if there is no better standard.

To study the Urantia Book is not to be students of the Urantia Book per se, but inevitably we will become students of the nature of God, cosmic citizens within the grand universe. In all humility.

Inevitably if there was a period in your adult years when you questioned or scrutinized the implicit meanings, seeing if there were hidden suggestions or prophecies imbedded in the text, then your human natures will either affirm or reject the purport of the text. When you become ongoing readers, the activity of "studying" becomes different because you have seemed to "trusted" the text more. Eventually, a man must make a choice upon the righteousness of his tradition or the truth of apparently new cultures he has been exposed to. But the questioning attitude, continually reappraising the phenomenon of the universe is useful not only to glean new information, but that any flaws in the text may go uncovered.

It has been written that Epochal Revelation is likely to be updated once per millenia, that the quality of philosophy or history, or its relevence to civilization, is sufficient and not contestable by counter cultures. This is not a challenge to other civilization but it invites challenges.

The things that need to be questioned most are the goal of one language and religion, the Adamic Regime, and the suggestions why citizens need God, other dire concerns do these values go against diversity are they better than muliplicitious meanings or implications. Are the messages of art-works abstract and different for each perspective, or to what extent does the universality of the creators' intent resonate within other human observers.

But our nearness to such a marker in history, and the fact that Urantia Book readers do not have much of a culture fellowship or tradition of themselves, they are likely to be bringing the attitudes of their upbringing into the text. Since the texts attempt to explain universal phenomenon, indeed since the name "Universal Father" has been attributed to the original or first Deity, we hope that the knowledge found in Urantia Papers is assimilable to all cultures. This is not a religious matter but a philosophical, sociological and cultural issue since it pertains to all persons rather than each and every one. Since in modern times, there is so much (righteous) fear of unjust conformity, of a corrupted beaurocracy in the name of "Big Brother" or false tyrants, it is only just that a text that delegates moral responsibility back onto the shoulders of mankind be upheld.

_________________
to the Underlaying Unity of All Life so that the Voice of Intuition may guide Us closer to Our Common Keeper


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A very high quality post SEla_Kelly. :) There were lots of points that require further thinking to better understand the subtle issues you raise.

SEla_Kelly wrote:
To study the Urantia Book is not to be students of the Urantia Book per se, but inevitably we will become students of the nature of God, cosmic citizens within the grand universe. In all humility.


Probably each of us exists somewhere on a continuum. One end is where someone studies very carefully and analytically word-by-word, phrase-by-phrase in the current focus area they encounter. The other end is where someone can almost glance at a page and feel it's content by osmosis, balancing it spontaneously and instantaneously with a great deal of other facts, values and meanings - maybe even experiencing a morontial meaning or paraphrase first hand.

But no matter where we each exist and how we interact with the content we have the option and privilege to look through or past the pages to see the reality of the personalities who authored it, as well as the still higher personalities who authorized it. And with the reality of the authors and authorizers, the reality of the facts and meanings they hold can be experienced by us. I suppose that is akin to one aspect of Zen: to jump to the real thing rather than concerning yourself with the thing that points to it.


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Riktare wrote:
A very high quality post SEla_Kelly. There were lots of points that require further thinking to better understand the subtle issues you raise.


Ditto for me Stephen.


fanofVan wrote:
The Papers ARE replete...filled with satisfying facts!!


By "replete", Brad, are you implying "complete"? Perhaps I misunderstood you.


fanofVan wrote:
We shouldn't study "books"?????!!!!!! An absurd proclamation. Is there not knowledge in books? Does one not use a map on a trek through undiscovered territory?


We "read" books as we observe and study reality. Written records are twice removed from reality. There is no knowledge in books. Otherwise libraries would be knowledgable. A map is a static record of a point (instant) in time. Remember that space is currently expanding. Locations are not where they were just seconds ago. This is a reality that a map cannot provide because it is removed from the reality of the Universe.


fanofVan wrote:
Facts become knowledge which is one form of being "taught"....the UB is replete with teachings about who, when, how, why, etc., etc. You graduated med school - you didn't learn the facts of chemistry, biology, anatomy, etc. from text books? Do you know the planet's geography? Without a map? You crack me up!


My textbooks from 35 years ago are useless because they are outdated and the "facts" contained in them are no longer valid. That is why doctors must engage in continuous medical education. If you could only take the long view, Bradly, you would know that the geography map of 500,000 years ago is worthless now. TUB did 'whisper in your ear' the fact of continental drift, no? Turn and face the strange changes, Brad. Do you not accept that we are to live in eternity?


fanofVan wrote:
A direct contradiction to what you have already said. A map shows the relationship of current location and desired destiny and the routes and obstacles in between. The UB teaches how we are related one to another and to all others and to God - relationships - and the relationship of all ministering spirits to the each of us and the all of us (the Supreme) and the facts of origin, history, destiny, plan, process, purpose, etc. You say facts are irrelevant and then claim relationships are important; how does one get to the one without the other?


No contradictions here, Brad. Maps show relationships at an instant. This is outside of space and time. Our relationship to one another and to God is evolutionary. We are in time. I wrote of relationships in eternity where time is absolute. The Supreme is an evolving Deity. I am not saying that facts are irrelevant, I am saying that facts change with time. Relationships change with time unless were are talking of the Absolutes. The Holy Trinity is eternally an orthogonal relationship, as in three concentric circles. In motion, the ellipse is in continuous change at every instant. However, at each and every instant, the relationship remains orthogonal because an instant is not in time.


fanofVan wrote:
Where did you learn (were taught) about the TAs Manny? And the Supreme? And Paradise? And the ultimatons? How about the mechanics of soul and soul survival and the Mansion Worlds and the ascension career? Did you know of all this without the UB? How so? From whence?


I read about the TAs, but I know my TA by my experience with it. I have read about the Supreme but I do not know this Deity because I have not achieved it. I have read about Paradise but I do not know it because I have not lived there. To read about these things is not to know it. If you do, then describe it to all of us and tell us how it feels.


fanofVan wrote:
You say: "Humans can only respect other persons." Who says so? You? Do you respect physics (do you wear a seat belt)? Or the ability of electricity to kill or fire to burn? Poppycock dude.


I do not respect "things". This is idolatry. I respect persons because they hold in their minds a fragment of The Father.


fanofVan wrote:
Respect is a way of treating or thinking about something or someone. People respect others who are impressive for any reason, such as being in authority — like a teacher or cop — or being older — like a grandparent. You show respect by being polite and kind. For a lot of people, taking your hat off is a show of respect. When people are insulted or treated badly, they feel they haven't been treated with respect. You can respect things as well as people. Saying the Pledge of Allegiance shows respect to your country.




You may respect "things" as well as people, but I will tell you that this is a slippery slope to the pits of despair. This is idolatry. Pledging allegiant is a promise made to other persons with which you share a common desire. A country is nothing but its people. A flag is an object, a thing, a symbol. Can you make a promise to a thing, or something? TUB is a symbol of a symbol of thoughts that originated in the minds of the superhumans and Celestials that originated with them. Can you make a promise to TUB?


fanofVan wrote:
Me: Symmetry and relationships cannot be known without the knowledge of the facts and persons which are so related.


OK, but it is written in TUB that parts of its information will be outdated in the near future and that the "facts" therein are not infallible. Symmetry and relationships are projected from the Absolutes to the finite. Time is quantized in order for this symmetry and relationship to remain unchanged in projection.


fanofVan wrote:
Seriously Manny, you are making no sense. We are given the inner life and light and pilot and now we are given this textbook of fact and relationship but you say it should not be studied to learn. Why then was it given I wonder? So many words and so long in coming but for no purpose according to you. Seriously??!!


I would make more sense to you, Brad, if you would make the effort to take the long view, the eternal view. It is a colossal mistake to steal time from the practice of the presence of God for the "study" of the text. If you engage in "praying without ceasing" then study is unnecessary. Read a book, "study" the reality of God through prayer and worship. I can tell you that TUB was given to add, not replace. TUB is a primer, a preview of coming attractions. Perhaps it will save some time in reaching Light and Life status on this backward planet. Nebadon cannot reach settled status in Light and Life unless all planets of inhabitation do it together. The real gift is time. You would understand me better if you could practice stepping out of time more and "studying" TUB less.


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Greetings,

One of the purposes of studying the Revelation is the attempt to understand it. It's not really possible to read the Papers and instantaneously comprehend the entire thing. Granted, a better understanding is attained by grasping it in its entirety, but the average human mind has difficulty with that, hence the need to break it down into smaller pieces. The material mind is a philosophical tool; its purpose is to make sense out of facts and truth. It doesn't do this all by itself without any effort; it's not osmosis, the unconscious automatic assimilation of reality.

In Paper 19 there is a description of how the human mind best approaches the study of revelation. Mind needs to perform a full and unprejudiced study such that it can correlate and understand all three phases of reality.

The true perspective of any reality problem — human or divine, terrestrial or cosmic — can be had only by the full and unprejudiced study and correlation of three phases of universe reality: origin, history, and destiny. The proper understanding of these three experiential realities affords the basis for a wise estimate of the current status. 19:1:6

The purpose of the Fifth Epochal Revelation is to reveal these three phases of universe reality in order to assist the human mind in developing the cosmic philosophical technique described above; and more importantly, to reveal correct information concerning those three phases of reality: origin, history and destiny. It's not really possible to approach revelation entirely on a spiritual level. Human mind level philosophy, guided by revelation, is a necessary ingredient in the process, and philosophy requires study in order to correlate information so it can be understood.

A logical and consistent philosophic concept of the universe cannot be built up on the postulations of either materialism or spiritism, for both of these systems of thinking, when universally applied, are compelled to view the cosmos in distortion, the former contacting with a universe turned inside out, the latter realizing the nature of a universe turned outside in. Never, then, can either science or religion, in and of themselves, standing alone, hope to gain an adequate understanding of universal truths and relationships without the guidance of human philosophy and the illumination of divine revelation.
103:6:5


In Friendship,
Rexford


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Actually Manny, respect for things is not idolatry. Idolatry is the worship of and deification of material objects. It is a form of primitivism no serious UB student would be guilty of. One book you might study is a dictionary for you have misstated or misrepresented many common terms here so far including idolatry, replete, and respect to name but three. Such a "technique" of using words or defining them in ways that are not factual or knowledgeable only proves the value of books and knowledge for the study of reality, context, and perspective that is based in reality.

We are all agreed that knowledge and facts alone do not deliver spirit growth or experience for the development of wisdom. Simply reading or closely studying a book, any book, does not serve us - knowledge not utilized in experience has no true value.

We also all agree that circle progress and spirit growth and a loving relationship with God and our fellows does not depend upon facts, knowledge, and education but relies primarily upon our faith and love response to the Spirit.

Some of us agree that knowledge of reality combined with the experience of the Spirit within, opens new clarity, truth discernment, and wisdom potential for the ascender and that the UB provides such facts, information, and knowledge which contributes to the spirit led journey and that such knowledge and study of facts is a reality for all beings in time and space, especially mortal ascenders. And those who have less confusion and error and doubt in their pilgrim's walk with God are blessed to have such knowledge available to us - not to replace the journey but to illuminate the path and assist in the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of life.

The map is not the terrain, the light is not the path so lit, and facts have no value until incorporated into our philosophy of living which is to unify the facts of material reality and the truth of the inner life into a harmony of the experience of both realities - the spirit and the material. Indeed, the best way to transfer the seat of our identity from one nature to the other, is to unify both of our natures into a singular experience and expression in living our lives with a clear picture of reality itself - that which we can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch and that which is unknowable to us ....... without epochal revelation and study of the greater realities in time and space and beyond those.

118:3.3 (1297.4) Truth is inconcussible — forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable — radiantly alive. But when truth becomes linked with fact, then both time and space condition its meanings and correlate its values. Such realities of truth wedded to fact become concepts and are accordingly relegated to the domain of relative cosmic realities.


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Rexford wrote:
In Paper 19 there is a description of how the human mind best approaches the study of revelation. Mind needs to perform a full and unprejudiced study such that it can correlate and understand all three phases of reality.


Granted, but %99.9 percent of the human minds now present on the planet are unprepared for this revelation. And even for those of us who have some measure of familiarity with the text and struggle with it meaning, this is but a starting place. For others the human mind must await progress through the Mansion Worlds in order to even begin the unprejudiced study and correlation of the three phases of universe reality, that being origin, history and destiny. Origin and destiny are one, to be sure. History lies in the gift of time. And time is a succession of instants, a succession of origins and destinies.

One cannot begin this study without the TA working within the human mind. The TAs need cooperation. Divine revelation must be sought and practiced.

First, seek the Kingdom.


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fanofVan wrote:
Actually Manny, respect for things is not idolatry. Idolatry is the worship of and deification of material objects. It is a form of primitivism no serious UB student would be guilty of. One book you might study is a dictionary for you have misstated or misrepresented many common terms here so far including idolatry, replete, and respect to name but three. Such a "technique" of using words or defining them in ways that are not factual or knowledgeable only proves the value of books and knowledge for the study of reality, context, and perspective that is based in reality.


Can you you respect a thing that cannot respect you in return? Respect for objects and symbols is most certainly on the road to idolatry. And remember, origin and destiny are ONE!

Brad, read to me a dictionary published in 1948 and tell me the meaning of the words: Cool, hot, gay, queer, and groovy, just to name a few. Then read me from a dictionary published last year the meanings of these same words. We must define our terms as we use them because meanings change. Perhaps you prefer using a dictionary published in 1934, or even 1955. Either way, define your terms or they will be defined for you. Since I am fluent in more than one language, perhaps I have a different perspective.


fanofVan wrote:
And those who have less confusion and error and doubt in their pilgrim's walk with God are blessed to have such knowledge available to us - not to replace the journey but to illuminate the path and assist in the edges of conflict and the vicissitudes of life.


The source of much confusion lies at the heart of symbolism and fluctuating meanings. The meaning of life is adaptability. There is value in progress. Does not TUB also say that there is value in affliction? What would progress mean if not for the vicissiutdes of life? The path need not be illuminated if it is the correct path.


fanofVan wrote:
The map is not the terrain, the light is not the path so lit, and facts have no value until incorporated into our philosophy of living which is to unify the facts of material reality and the truth of the inner life into a harmony of the experience of both realities - the spirit and the material. Indeed, the best way to transfer the seat of our identity from one nature to the other, is to unify both of our natures into a singular experience and expression in living our lives with a clear picture of reality itself - that which we can see, hear, smell, taste, and touch and that which is unknowable to us ....... without epochal revelation and study of the greater realities in time and space and beyond those.


A map is a symbol of a physical reality. The right path is already lit. Facts are not facts if they must be given value by the human mind. God's reality is the only bestower of value. You have covered the five human senses and the unknowable but that leaves out God altogether. Have you replace God with another reality that you have not defined and is not in the dictionary? Reality is already unified in God. He is the only reality. Are you defining God under the category of "unknowable"? To love God is to know Him. Love is the unifier because God is Love.


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To all friends and fellow progressors, with great respect I need to point out how easy it is miscomprehend and badly abuse useful and novel concepts offered in a spirit of inquisitiveness that arise spontaneously as we ponder the experience and meaning of spiritual development and the call to better service. It's precisely because of the limitedness of our current modes of study and application that at least one UB student has expressed a slight bit of dissatisfaction. Sure we could all be extremely learned and criticize everything that we've ever heard or encountered in our lives previously. Why shouldn't we then take up arms as a self-preservation council such as the Sanhedren of 2000 years ago? :)

I'll leave you to consider just what you think you understand. And just what the limitations of a human being living in close companionship with The Living God really are. As well as how deeply you have really consigned yourself to follow the path layed out by that living god.


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Greetings,

As I previously said, the human mind guided by revelation is capable of recognizing truth. You need both. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. "Guided by revelation" means Adjuster guided. But even inner guidance must be expressed by the technique of material mind, and the human material mind is the only mind we have that can function on the material level of reality. The soul, where we experience Adjuster guidance, cannot function below the supermaterial level of reality. We're limited by the ability of our human mind to interpret and harmonize inner and the outer reality. Reading the Papers is both an internal experience and external exercise, but our conscious realization of such is in the material mind. And that's what we share with each other here on this forum.

Always must man’s inner spirit depend for its expression and self-realization upon the mechanism and technique of the mind. Likewise must man’s outer experience of material reality be predicated on the mind consciousness of the experiencing personality. Therefore are the spiritual and the material, the inner and the outer, human experiences always correlated with the mind function and conditioned, as to their conscious realization, by the mind activity. Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind. The intellect is the harmonizer and the ever-present conditioner and qualifier of the sum total of mortal experience. Both energy-things and spirit values are colored by their interpretation through the mind media of consciousness. 103:6:6

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Very worthwhile comments Rexford! I guess what I really want to express is that although we mostly live day-to-day consumed by the energies and focus of the conscious mind and guided by the intellect, we are more than that. The superconsciousness is a very real part of our being and sometimes even experience. :) It can even be far more intense as a matter of experience than the conscious realms. There is the caveat of course that a forced or premature fixation on that type of experience can be problematic. So letting things unfold in their due time seems right, never too far from what we can understand and appreciate in the long term. It seems amazing that mind can so effectively adapt to and integrate the huge differences in the various levels of reality or experience...


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Rexford wrote:
As I previously said, the human mind guided by revelation is capable of recognizing truth. You need both. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. "Guided by revelation" means Adjuster guided. But even inner guidance must be expressed by the technique of material mind, and the human material mind is the only mind we have that can function on the material level of reality. The soul, where we experience Adjuster guidance, cannot function below the supermaterial level of reality. We're limited by the ability of our human mind to interpret and harmonize inner and the outer reality. Reading the Papers is both an internal experience and external exercise, but our conscious realization of such is in the material mind. And that's what we share with each other here on this forum.



48:6.26 Even on Urantia, these seraphim teach the everlasting truth: If your own mind does not serve you well, you can exchange it for the mind of Jesus of Nazareth, who always serves you well.


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Rex and Brad, it appears you are trying your best to hold out that the Urantia Book is to be accepted as the definitive way to learn of God so humans can know him. Manny, myself and others are saying that knowing God is the actual result of making a personal decision to know him which must precede the study of the Urantia Book or any religious book for that matter or else the meanings of the text(s) will be misinterpreted and we will be back to the religion of the mind instead of the personal religion of Jesus. That, in my view, is the reason I am unable to satisfy you two regarding my Life 5.0 post. We are not on the same page and endless restatements are not productive or helpful.

The following paragraph is written by Rexford and my comments are in CAPS!

Rexford wrote: “As I previously said, the human mind guided by revelation is capable of recognizing truth. You (YOU MEAN WE?) need both. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. (YES YOU CAN! YOU CAN SHARE HOW YOU DO THIS PERSONALLY.) "Guided by revelation" means Adjuster guided. (THIS IS TOO VAGUE) But even inner guidance must be expressed (AND EXPLAINED TO THE WORLD) by the technique of material mind (SHARING PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE THOUGHT ADJUSTER IN THIS PROCESS), and the human material mind is the only mind we have that can function on the material level of reality. The soul, where we experience Adjuster guidance, cannot function below the supermaterial level of reality. (BUT IT CAN BE EXPERIENCED. EXPLANATION OF THIS EXPERIENCE REVEALS THE FRUITS OF THIS SPIRIT CONTACT. YOUR STATEMENT IS AN EXCUSE, MY FRIEND. YOU ARE SIMPLY STOPPING YOUR OWN FORWARD PROGRESS AND ARE USING THIS AN EXCUSE FOR NOT TRYING.)

We're (YOU MIGHT BE BETTER OFF SAYING “I AM” RATHER THAN WE’RE) limited by the ability of our (MY) human mind to interpret and harmonize inner and the outer reality. (TRUE, BUT OUR LIMITS ARE NOT SELF DISCOVERED LIMITATIONS, THEY ARE GOD REVEALED. WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF IN GOD’S EYES, BUT WE ARE IN CONTROL OF WHAT WE WON’T ALLOW HIM TO REVEAL TO US ABOUT US.) Reading the Papers is both an internal experience and external exercise, but our conscious realization of such is in the material mind (THIS STATEMENT IS INACCURATE, THE MATERIAL MIND IS CAPABLE OF REALIZING GOD'S ACTIVITY IN OUR SOULS. BY DISALLOWING THAT YOU DENY GOD’S INVOLVEMENT.) And that's what we share with each other here on this forum. (AND THAT IS WHY WE DON’T HAVE SPIRITUAL UNITY ON THIS FORUM)

Rexford,

Thank you for such a clear misrepresentation of reality. No wonder we are always at odds. The mind is OUR tool, but WE are not OUR minds. We are something other than merely our thoughts. I believe you will find additional insight one or two levels deeper my friend. Possibly if you were to see yourself as the controller of your mind, not the product of it. Our job on Urantia is to learn to first identify the levels of our mind we have control over then intentionally and deliberately give control of those to GOD!

So again; get straight with God and learn the Urantia Book, not the other way around. God sets the order, not we. We simply must meet him personally before we can know in reality what he is like. Studying the Urantia Book without knowing personally who it is talking about is, well . . . I cannot even imagine how goofy this world will become if folks who don’t know God experientially try to change it or run it based on what they know of the Urantia Book. Spiritual unity can never come from knowledge, even knowledge of the Fifth Epochal Revelation. It can only come from actual experience, personal experience with the spirit of God. Unity is spiritual. Manny and I do not think alike or about the same things at all, (he is an doctor of medicine and I am an oilfield worker) but we share an awareness of the reality of the presence of God in our lives that reveals we are together in life’s most real and enduring truths.

Rex and Brad there is something here that is real that you both have repeatedly said either confuses you or you don’t understand. Face that squarely and stop arguing (debating) the truth. You are missing the point. Please talk with God about this before you pick up your books. Share your reality, not your understanding.

Now if you believe I am way off base here and we really are this far apart, then I sincerely apologize and ask your forgiveness. I will leave the forum. But if what I say is true, simply share your faith, not just your knowledge with us for at least a few moments, so we can realize what we are missing. We are anxious to share our reality with you.

It is time to put this issue behind us. None of us are to be “Keepers of the Gate”. Those who call into question each statement and budding understanding of each and every issue that comes up between readers. We are not to be consensus builders but spirit builders, soul builders. I pray God will bless you both as you seek HIS way for you rather than your way to him.

Jim


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Greetings Jim,

You wrote:
Jim George wrote:
Rex and Brad, it appears you are trying your best to hold out that the Urantia Book is to be accepted as the definitive way to learn of God so humans can know him.


Not at all dear fellow, that is not at all what I mean. You used the phrase "learn of God". Learning is a form of knowledge, it involves reasoning and logic. When we read the Papers we are using those intellectual skills to learn about God. But to know God requires an entirely different skill set that does not necessarily involve reading the Papers. The skill set I'm referring to is prayer and worship. That's the definitive way to get to know God as a person. Learning about God, all the facts surrounding and related to God is something different. Hope that clears it up a bit.

Jim George wrote:
Manny, myself and others are saying that knowing God is the actual result of making a personal decision to know him which must precede the study of the Urantia Book or any religious book for that matter or else the meanings of the text(s) will be misinterpreted and we will be back to the religion of the mind instead of the personal religion of Jesus.


I agree that to know God as a person requires a free will decision by the personality to want to know him. It is literally true that divine things must be loved in order to be known. Such a decision can be made without ever reading a single word of any book. Reading the Revelation involves both the desire to know God personally and the desire to know more about his universe. There are just as many pages about God's universe as there are about his nature in the Papers. Also, the Papers include more than just religion; they include scientific facts and philosophical meanings.

The purpose of the Revelation is to train our minds to think in terms of a trifold reality, God's reality. To do so, necessitates the consideration of fact, meaning and value. If religion is value, and that is all you think about and all you desire, then you will be viewing God's universe with monocular vision, and that can create a monomaniacal fixation on only one aspect of reality, creating an unbalanced and asymmetric personality.

Jim George wrote:
Rexford wrote: “As I previously said, the human mind guided by revelation is capable of recognizing truth. You (YOU MEAN WE?) need both. I don't think I can be any clearer than that. (YES YOU CAN! YOU CAN SHARE HOW YOU DO THIS PERSONALLY.)


Forgive me for using the word you instead of we. In reality, I think you would prefer that I use the word I since you would like to know more about my personal approach to God. I think I've explained that numerous times. I pray and I worship. I don't think it's appropriate for me to share my prayers here. Jesus said to pray in secret, and I take his word literally on that.

Jim George wrote:
"Guided by revelation" means Adjuster guided. (THIS IS TOO VAGUE) But even inner guidance must be expressed (AND EXPLAINED TO THE WORLD) by the technique of material mind (SHARING PERSONAL EXPERIENCE WITH THE THOUGHT ADJUSTER IN THIS PROCESS), and the human material mind is the only mind we have that can function on the material level of reality.


Do you mean you don't understand how being guided by revelation means Adjuster guidance? Where does revelation to the soul come from except from the Adjuster? Revelation for the mind (reading) is a substitute for mota (superphilosophy), a thought mechanism used to elevate the mind to be more receptive to the soul level where the Adjuster does the revealing. Revelation for the mind is about higher meanings, revelation for the soul is about higher values. The two work together.

Jim George wrote:
The soul, where we experience Adjuster guidance, cannot function below the supermaterial level of reality. (BUT IT CAN BE EXPERIENCED. EXPLANATION OF THIS EXPERIENCE REVEALS THE FRUITS OF THIS SPIRIT CONTACT. YOUR STATEMENT IS AN EXCUSE, MY FRIEND. YOU ARE SIMPLY STOPPING YOUR OWN FORWARD PROGRESS AND ARE USING THIS AN EXCUSE FOR NOT TRYING.)


The morontia soul absolutely cannot function on the material level of existence. Yes, consciousness of the soul is very possible, particularly when it reaches a certain level of growth; and yes, the manifestation of spiritual fruit is proof of Adjuster guidance. But dear fellow, my statement is not an excuse. My words are nearly directly from the Papers, see quote below.

The soul, being supermaterial, does not of itself function on the material level of human experience. 111:3:2

Jim George wrote:
We're (YOU MIGHT BE BETTER OFF SAYING “I AM” RATHER THAN WE’RE) limited by the ability of our (MY) human mind to interpret and harmonize inner and the outer reality. (TRUE, BUT OUR LIMITS ARE NOT SELF DISCOVERED LIMITATIONS, THEY ARE GOD REVEALED. WE HAVE NO IDEA WHAT WE ARE CAPABLE OF IN GOD’S EYES, BUT WE ARE IN CONTROL OF WHAT WE WON’T ALLOW HIM TO REVEAL TO US ABOUT US.)


The limitations of the human mind, the material, adjutant level of mind, are a fact. Can limitations be surmounted? Yes, we are given mind ministries which enable us to learn how to access our soul and begin to recognize the way the soul thinks. This is accomplished by prayer and worship, the personal desire and choice to seek God. Once we decide to seek him, we know that he has already found us and it is our gift of sonship which enables us to explore the ever growing relationship which exists in our souls. Yes, we are in control. We can choose to seek God or we can choose to ignore him, resist him and deny him. It is our choice entirely.

Jim George wrote:
Reading the Papers is both an internal experience and external exercise, but our conscious realization of such is in the material mind (THIS STATEMENT IS INACCURATE, THE MATERIAL MIND IS CAPABLE OF REALIZING GOD'S ACTIVITY IN OUR SOULS. BY DISALLOWING THAT YOU DENY GOD’S INVOLVEMENT.) And that's what we share with each other here on this forum. (AND THAT IS WHY WE DON’T HAVE SPIRITUAL UNITY ON THIS FORUM)


Again, my statement concerning the conscious realization of both inner and outer experience being in our material mind is a restatement of what is written in the Papers. Perhaps you don't like my paraphrase, so here is the actual quote:

Always must man's inner spirit depend for its expression and self-realization upon the mechanism and technique of the mind. Likewise must man's outer experience of material reality be predicated on the mind consciousness of the experiencing personality. Therefore are the spiritual and the material, the inner and the outer, human experiences always correlated with the mind function and conditioned, as to their conscious realization, by the mind activity. Man experiences matter in his mind; he experiences spiritual reality in the soul but becomes conscious of this experience in his mind. The intellect is the harmonizer and the ever-present conditioner and qualifier of the sum total of mortal experience. Both energy-things and spirit values are colored by their interpretation through the mind media of consciousness. 103:6:6

As you see, the experience of spiritual reality in the soul becomes conscious in the material mind. The soul mind is morontial therefore not functioning in the material level of mind; however, full morontia consciousness (soul-consciousness) is a possibility in this life, but probably only for those in the first psychic circle.

You wrote: THE MATERIAL MIND IS CAPABLE OF REALIZING GOD'S ACTIVITY IN OUR SOULS.

That's exactly what I just said and what the quote says. We experience God's activity in our souls but become conscious of it in our material mind. I don't see where we differ there.

As to spiritual unity on this forum, I don't see any evidence that we don't have it. I think we lack unity in knowledge, interpretation and opinion. But that is precisely what is supposed to happen. We are not meant to see, feel or think alike. Differences in sight, feeling and thinking are actually desired. See what Jesus said about that below:

One of the most eventful of all the evening conferences at Amathus, was the session having to do with the discussion of spiritual unity. James Zebedee had asked, "Master, how shall we learn to see alike and thereby enjoy more harmony among ourselves?" When Jesus heard this question, he was stirred within his spirit, so much so that he replied: "James, James, when did I teach you that you should all see alike? I have come into the world to proclaim spiritual liberty to the end that mortals may be empowered to live individual lives of originality and freedom before God. I do not desire that social harmony and fraternal peace shall be purchased by the sacrifice of free personality and spiritual originality. What I require of you, my apostles, is spirit unity—and that you can experience in the joy of your united dedication to the wholehearted doing of the will of my Father in heaven. You do not have to see alike or feel alike or even think alike in order spiritually to be alike. Spiritual unity is derived from the consciousness that each of you is indwelt, and increasingly dominated, by the spirit gift of the heavenly Father. Your apostolic harmony must grow out of the fact that the spirit hope of each of you is identical in origin, nature, and destiny. 141:5.1

Jim George wrote:
We are something other than merely our thoughts


Yes, we are more than thoughts. We are bodies, minds, souls and personalities with a spirit nucleus. But it is our thoughts that guide us Godward.

The divine spirit makes contact with mortal man, not by feelings or emotions, but in the realm of the highest and most spiritualized thinking. It is your thoughts, not your feelings, that lead you Godward. The divine nature may be perceived only with the eyes of the mind. 101:1:3

Jim George wrote:
Our job on Urantia is to learn to first identify the levels of our mind we have control over then intentionally and deliberately give control of those to GOD!


I agree we must have control, but self-control, not just mind-control. The self includes more than just the mind. We must have control over the whole self. And I don't think we give control of our minds over to God. That's not exactly how it works. We have to stay in control of our own minds and our own will and use them to do the will of God. That's what the statement: "It is my will that your will be done" means. Each person has complete control over their own will and that's how it will always be. Even God considers human will to be sovereign.

This choosing does not so much consist in the negation of creature will — "Not my will but yours be done" — as it consists in the creature's positive affirmation: "It is my will that your will be done." 111:5.6
An automatic universe reaction is stable and, in some form, continuing in the cosmos. A personality who knows God and desires to do his will, who has spirit insight, is divinely stable and eternally existent. Man's great universe adventure consists in the transit of his mortal mind from the stability of mechanical statics to the divinity of spiritual dynamics, and he achieves this transformation by the force and constancy of his own personality decisions, in each of life's situations declaring, "It is my will that your will be done." 118:8:11
The fee will of man is supreme in moral affairs; even the indwelling Thought Adjuster refuses to compel man to think a single thought or to perform a single act against the choosing of man's own will. 66:8:6
As pertains to eternal survival, God has decreed the sovereignty of the material and mortal will, and that decree is absolute. 5:6:8


Jim George wrote:
Rex and Brad there is something here that is real that you both have repeatedly said either confuses you or you don’t understand. Face that squarely and stop arguing (debating) the truth. You are missing the point. Please talk with God about this before you pick up your books. Share your reality, not your understanding.


Hmm. I don't consider myself confused. And I'm not arguing, I'm expressing my ideas, views, opinions and thoughts. I choose to share my thoughts because that is all you can share on a forum. The meaning of the word forum is: a place to exchange ideas and views. If you want me to share my religious self personally, we would have to do that in person, right? That's what churches are for. I recommend you build one. But this here place is a forum, not a church.

Jim George wrote:
It is time to put this issue behind us. None of us are to be “Keepers of the Gate”. Those who call into question each statement and budding understanding of each and every issue that comes up between readers. We are not to be consensus builders but spirit builders, soul builders. I pray God will bless you both as you seek HIS way for you rather than your way to him.


Put what behind us? I'm not arguing here, but I think you are. I am explaining my ideas, thoughts, opinions, attitudes and interests. My faith is something I have unto myself. Hopefully you recognize some fruits of the spirit which might be proof that I do have faith, as you have yourself indicated is the only way to know. I also don't know where you get the idea that I care at all about gates. Anyway, thank you for the prayers. I am absolutely certain and secure in my relationship with God. I don't have to find my way to him; I have already found him. But thanks for your concern. I pray for you as well.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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So....it is my walk and relationship with Father that is now also called into question? An even more curious claim than Manny's of my being an insincere and blind idolater in my study of the UB here with other students. Hmmmmm.......

It is true there is much to improve in my character and life as a faith son. It is also true God is not found in a book or any other object. My walk with Father began a very long time ago and I've managed to find the weeds and ditches and bogs along my pilgrim's path time to time - also true. And this tadpole is, still, unable to measure the spirit within others and have not found the need, purpose, right, responsibility, or will to tell other pilgrims and tadpoles what they should be doing to get closer to God than I might perceive them to be (if I were tempted to make such a judgment of others).

I have found the light of the Spirit in most of the people I have met and am confident in the force of love and the living waters of truth to feed their souls as it has done in my own. I see the fruits of the spirit demonstrated around me and around the world and rejoice that God is with us and will guide all to love, truth, beauty, and goodness...if we but see, listen, and respond to His glorious ministry to each of us. I do not find God to be such a stranger to so many as some may.

The Papers will not attract those who do not believe in and trust Father...it is not a tool of conversion of the godless to the godly. The students of cosmology I have met did not and do not substitute intellectualization for spiritization in their lives....but use the text simply to reduce confusions, doubts, anxieties, myths, and errors in their daily walk and philosophy for living the life of sincere religionist, gaining in experience and wisdom in their growth on this world of birth. Knowledge of how things work and our source/destiny is no enemy to the pilgrim and truthseeker and all students early come to read that knowledge itself is no substitute for living life everyday AS a believer in God, growing in faith and love as, and only as, demonstrated in our life experience and expressions of our living faith.

I remain confident that the addition of the knowledge given in this epochal revelation to our world will come to be perceived by more and more practicing religionists as a wonderful contribution to their pilgrim's journey in the Spirit - and they too will recognize the book is not the journey. As it clearly teaches to those who care to read and study this gift to all.

8)


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Thanks Rexford for such a reasoned and measured response. Jim seems to think we both suffer from a serious and shared malady. Like you, I am not confused by my life - within or without - but I am sometimes confused by the words of others and so do often seek better understanding by stating my confusion and asking for clarification. My only certainties come from the Spirit's assurances and confirmations within which alleviates the daily uncertainties as how best to respond at the many intersections of choice in circumstance, situation, and relationship which arise as they are encountered upon the daily walk.

I appreciate your tenacity and patience here among students of the Papers at this study group dedicated to the sharing of both the study of and reflections about this book of knowledge. Truth may only be discovered within the intersections of free will choice and expression....it is experienced only I think as discovery first and expression next within choices faced and made. Greater accuracy in our knowledge of how things work and why helps us to choose more intelligently and more caringly - it helps me actually to seek out the opportunities for learning and growing at every such intersection of choice; opportunities for demonstrating love, service, patience, kindness, and experience the fruits of the spirit by such an attitude based on my faith in Father and absolute confidence in His divine will for us each and all.

Obviously I have much yet to learn in my own situational/circumstantial/relationship responses to gain maturity and wisdom and much yet to understand related to the mastery of self (and tongue). But I do not despair about what is yet to come as my life is already filled with happiness and joy and peace of mind.

Your contributions here inspire me to new levels of study, appreciation for, and understanding of what we share here in this place of study. Thank you for being you....and being here. May our good humor overcome whatever strife and turmoil we encounter here and elsewhere upon the pilgrim's path to Paradise. Frustration, disappointment, uncertainty, and failure - all are to be faced and overcome by the poise of faith assurance and each offers opportunity for growth for the sincere believer. Adventure is not possible without uncertainty! Curiosity is a gift to embrace and enjoy as God has given us all so much to learn about creation and the beings so created that reside in this cosmic family and journey home to Paradise.

So much good news to joyously share together!

Best wishes to all.

Brad 8)


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