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Hi all, wondering if any of you have felt that they need to hide the Urantia Book from your kids. I have sensitive and inquisitive young children, who are starting to ask question about the book they see me reading. On the one hand I would love to share some of the principles with them, to the level they would understand. But on the other hand I think it would be better for them to grow in the biblical environment they are in (from their mum and the church we all go to). They'll get religious-social support through sunday school and youth group. Having the Urantia Book come into the mix as well could just confuse them, while they're young anyway. But it's so hard hearing them talk about a God sending a global flood and drowning everyone. Or about Jesus dying on the cross for their sins. I want to do what's best for them, not project my perspective and needs onto them. I also want to support my wife in her views when she talks to the kids about God, from a conventional Christian viewpoint.

Anyone relate to this?
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I've heard a number of UB readers say they don't want to inflict TUB or their religious beliefs on their children -- kind of like saying I don't want to inflict Jesus on my kids.

Children's minds are like empty blackboards waiting to be written upon. Culture, social responsibility, getting along with others, humor, music appreciation, treatment of pets... nearly all the things that humanize and culturize us are learned as children. We either learn these from our parents and relatives or from friends and associates or devise them on our own. Part of being a parent is providing a safe and stimulating atmosphere in which our children can learn.

But there is no need to either force-feed or to hide the teachings of TUB... traditional Christianity has been sufficient for most religious seekers for thousands of years... along with other religious traditions. There are ways of explaining the teachings of TUB to children without confusing them or without contradicting what they're learning from mother or church.

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I definitely can relate to this. I am on the same boat. My 10-year old son has been in a bible study at a Catholic school since he was 6 years old through my wife's initiative. I don't have any problem with it since I myself grew up in a biblical environment. I agree, it is hard hearing them about Jesus dying on the cross for their sins but that was also my belief for a long time until I found the UB. I am just hoping that my son will eventually question the teaching. My wife and son knows that I read the UB and I never tried to hide it from them but they have never asked me about it. I know they are okay as they are and how they believe but I really yearn to share with them the truths I found in the UB but I also don't want to force feed it to them. I just try my best to live these truths and hope they will eventually ask me about or become interested in the book.
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A good explanation for Jesus dying for our sins is on the AngelJohn.org blog under the heading "Jesus Died for me?" -- it's at http://www.angeljohn.org/2012/03/07/jesus-died-for-me/ and I think it helps UB readers see this concept in a better perspective than what Bible readers often express.

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I don't know what I would do in your guys situation, perhaps I would focus on the commonalities? Being born of the Holy spirit, Spirit of truth, Jesus, the ancient prophets. Perhaps the best is to become an expert in the u.b yourself that way when they are ready to ask questions about the u.b you will have the right answers :). Or focus on being born of the holy spirit and let that guiding hand from holy spirit help bridge a gap in your family?

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[quote="YSMAEL"]I just try my best to live these truths and hope they will eventually ask me about or become interested in the book [\quote]
Yeah I guess often it's the long-term difficult approaches which are actually the correct ones.

[quote="boomshuka"]I don't know what I would do in your guys situation, perhaps I would focus on the commonalities?[\quote]
Good point - and there are lots of commonalities. Whenever talking to my kids about God I try to emphasise the fact that God is always with us and that he loves us. And focusing in on the person of Jesus is of course really good too.

The challenge for me at the moment is when I get asked what that blue book is. I just say that it's a book about God, and then change the subject. I don't want to mention anything about it contradicting or correcting the bible.

And thanks very much for that link, Larry, about Jesus dying for our sins. Not sure I agree with everything in it but I'm going to come back to it tomorrow and read it again. It's a really key issue, especially for people who have a social connection with Christians and/or Christianity.

(Can't seem to get quotes working properly :( )
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I was born and raised Catholic, and my family is still catholic. Many many times I have brought up the u.b and had little success. The only times I have had success is when I bring up the commonalities. Of coarse they are more engrained in their beliefs than a child is.

The Holy Spirit may be a good place to start, because this is also the spirit that allows our minds to access the cosmic intuitions. Being born of the spirit is a huge deal in the church and its apparently a huge deal in the urantia book as well. The Trinity may be another good spot, the primacy of the father, personality may be a good one to, everyone loves that section.

I know my father enjoyed the stories I told him about the Nodites he seemed to like the "giants mating with humans" connection that was made between the bible and the urantia book. That is about as much as I was able to get him interested in haha. These Giants mating with humans seemed to have puzzled and intreaged a lot of people who read the bible.

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boomshuka wrote:
Being born of the spirit is a huge deal in the church and its apparently a huge deal in the urantia book as well.

Hi boom, this idea is coming up a lot in your posts, but I've never really seen it as a strong theme of the Urantia Book. I always thought of it as one of the unclear ideas of Christianity. Can you send me to some Urantia Book refs? Or if they are in another thread. Ta

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HI Brothers 8)

Yeah , Being Born of the Spirit
Really IS A Huge Deal !

IT Was and IS The Greatest thing to EVER Happen To Me
IT IS Literally Life Changeing
IT Changes your life Forever
IT Did Change Mine
ITs REAL !

Faith Son
Coop

'' sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” ''

34:6.4 Spiritual forces unerringly seek and attain their own original levels. Having gone out from the Eternal, they are certain to return thereto, bringing with them all those children of time and space who have espoused the leading and teaching of the indwelling Adjuster, those who have been truly “born of the Spirit,” the faith sons of God.


34:6.7 Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit. “You are the temple of God, and the spirit of God dwells in you.” It is not enough that this spirit be poured out upon you; the divine Spirit must dominate and control every phase of human experience.


34:7.7 Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion. Faith sons work on intellectual levels and live on spiritual planes far above the conflicts produced by unrestrained or unnatural physical desires. The normal urges of animal beings and the natural appetites and impulses of the physical nature are not in conflict with even the highest spiritual attainment except in the minds of ignorant, mistaught, or unfortunately overconscientious persons.


103:2.1 Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.


130:6.4 This day, my son, you are to be reborn, re-established as a man of faith, courage, and devoted service to man, for God’s sake. And when you become so readjusted to life within yourself, you become likewise readjusted to the universe; you have been born again — born of the spirit — and henceforth will your whole life become one of victorious accomplishment. Trouble will invigorate you; disappointment will spur you on; difficulties will challenge you; and obstacles will stimulate you. Arise, young man! Say farewell to the life of cringing fear and fleeing cowardice. Hasten back to duty and live your life in the flesh as a son of God, a mortal dedicated to the ennobling service of man on earth and destined to the superb and eternal service of God in eternity.”


141:6.4 That night Jesus discoursed to the apostles on the new life in the kingdom. He said in part: “When you enter the kingdom, you are reborn. You cannot teach the deep things of the spirit to those who have been born only of the flesh; first see that men are born of the spirit before you seek to instruct them in the advanced ways of the spirit. Do not undertake to show men the beauties of the temple until you have first taken them into the temple. Introduce men to God and as the sons of God before you discourse on the doctrines of the fatherhood of God and the sonship of men. Do not strive with men — always be patient. It is not your kingdom; you are only ambassadors. Simply go forth proclaiming: This is the kingdom of heaven — God is your Father and you are his sons, and this good news, if you wholeheartedly believe it, is your eternal salvation.”


142:5.3 The Supreme Spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.


142:5.4 Said the Prophet Isaiah, speaking of these times: ‘When the spirit is poured upon us from on high, then shall the work of righteousness become peace, quietness, and assurance forever.’ And for all who truly believe this gospel, I will become surety for their reception into the eternal mercies and the everlasting life of my Father’s kingdom. You, then, who hear this message and believe this gospel of the kingdom are the sons of God, and you have life everlasting; and the evidence to all the world that you have been born of the spirit is that you sincerely love one another.”


142:6.5 Jesus said: “Nevertheless, I declare to you, except a man be born of the spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the spirit is spirit. But you should not marvel that I said you must be born from above. When the wind blows, you hear the rustle of the leaves, but you do not see the wind — whence it comes or whither it goes — and so it is with everyone born of the spirit. With the eyes of the flesh you can behold the manifestations of the spirit, but you cannot actually discern the spirit.”


142:6.7 And Nicodemus said: “But how can I begin to lay hold upon this spirit which is to remake me in preparation for entering into the kingdom?” Jesus answered: “Already does the spirit of the Father in heaven indwell you. If you would be led by this spirit from above, very soon would you begin to see with the eyes of the spirit, and then by the wholehearted choice of spirit guidance would you be born of the spirit since your only purpose in living would be to do the will of your Father who is in heaven. And so finding yourself born of the spirit and happily in the kingdom of God, you would begin to bear in your daily life the abundant fruits of the spirit.”


143:2.6 Salvation is by the regeneration of the spirit and not by the self-righteous deeds of the flesh. You are justified by faith and fellowshipped by grace, not by fear and the self-denial of the flesh, albeit the Father’s children who have been born of the spirit are ever and always masters of the self and all that pertains to the desires of the flesh. When you know that you are saved by faith, you have real peace with God. And all who follow in the way of this heavenly peace are destined to be sanctified to the eternal service of the ever-advancing sons of the eternal God. Henceforth, it is not a duty but rather your exalted privilege to cleanse yourselves from all evils of mind and body while you seek for perfection in the love of God.


143:2.8 If, then, my children, you are born of the spirit, you are forever delivered from the self-conscious bondage of a life of self-denial and watchcare over the desires of the flesh, and you are translated into the joyous kingdom of the spirit, whence you spontaneously show forth the fruits of the spirit in your daily lives; and the fruits of the spirit are the essence of the highest type of enjoyable and ennobling self-control, even the heights of terrestrial mortal attainment — true self-mastery.”


144:8.4 Verily, verily, I say to you, among those born of women there has not arisen a greater than John the Baptist; yet he who is but small in the kingdom of heaven is greater because he has been born of the spirit and knows that he has become a son of God.”


147:4.2 When Jesus heard Nathaniel’s question, he immediately stood upon his feet and, pointing his finger at the apostle, said: “Nathaniel, Nathaniel! What manner of thinking is going on in your heart? Do you not receive my teachings as one who has been born of the spirit? Do you not hear the truth as men of wisdom and spiritual understanding? When I admonished you to do to others as you would have them do to you, I spoke to men of high ideals, not to those who would be tempted to distort my teaching into a license for the encouragement of evil-doing.”


148:4.1 It was the habit of Jesus two evenings each week to hold special converse with individuals who desired to talk with him, in a certain secluded and sheltered corner of the Zebedee garden. At one of these evening conversations in private Thomas asked the Master this question: “Why is it necessary for men to be born of the spirit in order to enter the kingdom? Is rebirth necessary to escape the control of the evil one? Master, what is evil?” When Jesus heard these questions, he said to Thomas:


155:6.3 I have called upon you to be born again, to be born of the spirit. I have called you out of the darkness of authority and the lethargy of tradition into the transcendent light of the realization of the possibility of making for yourselves the greatest discovery possible for the human soul to make — the supernal experience of finding God for yourself, in yourself, and of yourself, and of doing all this as a fact in your own personal experience. And so may you pass from death to life, from the authority of tradition to the experience of knowing God; thus will you pass from darkness to light, from a racial faith inherited to a personal faith achieved by actual experience; and thereby will you progress from a theology of mind handed down by your ancestors to a true religion of spirit which shall be built up in your souls as an eternal endowment.


155:6.12 You must cease to seek for the word of God only on the pages of the olden records of theologic authority. Those who are born of the spirit of God shall henceforth discern the word of God regardless of whence it appears to take origin. Divine truth must not be discounted because the channel of its bestowal is apparently human. Many of your brethren have minds which accept the theory of God while they spiritually fail to realize the presence of God. And that is just the reason why I have so often taught you that the kingdom of heaven can best be realized by acquiring the spiritual attitude of a sincere child. It is not the mental immaturity of the child that I commend to you but rather the spiritual simplicity of such an easy-believing and fully-trusting little one. It is not so important that you should know about the fact of God as that you should increasingly grow in the ability to feel the presence of God.


156:5.2 It was during this same sermon that Jesus made use of his first and only parable having to do with his own trade — carpentry. In the course of his admonition to “Build well the foundations for the growth of a noble character of spiritual endowments,” he said: “In order to yield the fruits of the spirit, you must be born of the spirit. You must be taught by the spirit and be led by the spirit if you would live the spirit-filled life among your fellows. But do not make the mistake of the foolish carpenter who wastes valuable time squaring, measuring, and smoothing his worm-eaten and inwardly rotting timber and then, when he has thus bestowed all of his labor upon the unsound beam, must reject it as unfit to enter into the foundations of the building which he would construct to withstand the assaults of time and storm. Let every man make sure that the intellectual and moral foundations of character are such as will adequately support the superstructure of the enlarging and ennobling spiritual nature, which is thus to transform the mortal mind and then, in association with that re-created mind, is to achieve the evolvement of the soul of immortal destiny. Your spirit nature — the jointly created soul — is a living growth, but the mind and morals of the individual are the soil from which these higher manifestations of human development and divine destiny must spring. The soil of the evolving soul is human and material, but the destiny of this combined creature of mind and spirit is spiritual and divine.”


166:3.7 Slowly the apostles and many of the disciples were learning the meaning of Jesus’ early declaration: “Unless you are born again, born of the spirit, you cannot enter the kingdom of God.” Nevertheless, to all who are honest of heart and sincere in faith, it remains eternally true: “Behold, I stand at the doors of men’s hearts and knock, and if any man will open to me, I will come in and sup with him and will feed him with the bread of life; we shall be one in spirit and purpose, and so shall we ever be brethren in the long and fruitful service of the search for the Paradise Father.” And so, whether few or many are to be saved altogether depends on whether few or many will heed the invitation: “I am the door, I am the new and living way, and whosoever wills may enter to embark upon the endless truth-search for eternal life.”


168:4.10 7. No prayer can hope for an answer unless it is born of the spirit and nurtured by faith. Your sincere faith implies that you have in advance virtually granted your prayer hearers the full right to answer your petitions in accordance with that supreme wisdom and that divine love which your faith depicts as always actuating those beings to whom you pray.


193:0.3 And now you should give ear to my words lest you again make the mistake of hearing my teaching with the mind while in your hearts you fail to comprehend the meaning. From the beginning of my sojourn as one of you, I taught you that my one purpose was to reveal my Father in heaven to his children on earth. I have lived the God-revealing bestowal that you might experience the God-knowing career. I have revealed God as your Father in heaven; I have revealed you as the sons of God on earth. It is a fact that God loves you, his sons. By faith in my word this fact becomes an eternal and living truth in your hearts. When, by living faith, you become divinely God-conscious, you are then born of the spirit as children of light and life, even the eternal life wherewith you shall ascend the universe of universes and attain the experience of finding God the Father on Paradise.


193:2.2 Peace be upon you. You rejoice to know that the Son of Man has risen from the dead because you thereby know that you and your brethren shall also survive mortal death. But such survival is dependent on your having been previously born of the spirit of truth-seeking and God-finding. The bread of life and the water thereof are given only to those who hunger for truth and thirst for righteousness — for God. The fact that the dead rise is not the gospel of the kingdom. These great truths and these universe facts are all related to this gospel in that they are a part of the result of believing the good news and are embraced in the subsequent experience of those who, by faith, become, in deed and in truth, the everlasting sons of the eternal God. My Father sent me into the world to proclaim this salvation of sonship to all men. And so send I you abroad to preach this salvation of sonship. Salvation is the free gift of God, but those who are born of the spirit will immediately begin to show forth the fruits of the spirit in loving service to their fellow creatures. And the fruits of the divine spirit which are yielded in the lives of spirit-born and God-knowing mortals are: loving service, unselfish devotion, courageous loyalty, sincere fairness, enlightened honesty, undying hope, confiding trust, merciful ministry, unfailing goodness, forgiving tolerance, and enduring peace. If professed believers bear not these fruits of the divine spirit in their lives, they are dead; the Spirit of Truth is not in them; they are useless branches on the living vine, and they soon will be taken away. My Father requires of the children of faith that they bear much spirit fruit. If, therefore, you are not fruitful, he will dig about your roots and cut away your unfruitful branches. Increasingly, must you yield the fruits of the spirit as you progress heavenward in the kingdom of God. You may enter the kingdom as a child, but the Father requires that you grow up, by grace, to the full stature of spiritual adulthood. And when you go abroad to tell all nations the good news of this gospel, I will go before you, and my Spirit of Truth shall abide in your hearts. My peace I leave with you.”
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Hello kiwi2,

Part IV is all about being born of the Spirit -- that's why it was restated in The Urantia Book... to elevate Jesus' teachings above their Christian foundation. Parts I-III are all about becoming a cosmic citizen... the next step that follows being born of the Spirit.

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Wow, thanks Coop for all those refs - that is awesome. I am finding it hard to figure out what it means though, to be born of the spirit.

The Urantia Book says that "Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit." and also "When you enter the kingdom, you are reborn" which makes it seem as though we have been born of the spirit already.

But it also says that "Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion." which definitely rules me out.

I've always thought that the Urantia Book spiritual philosophy is about gradual growth and following the adjuster's leading, but the metaphor of being born seems like much more of a one-time deal. This tension is in Christianity as well - some Christians see being baptised of the spirit as occurring when they become a Christian, and some see it as a later, empowering, event. Can you expand on this, Coop, where you said that being reborn changed your life forever?

That's interesting Larry that you see Part IV as being about being born of the Spirit. I've never thought of it that way. One of the things that attracted me to the Urantia Book was that I felt it was less about me. More about an enormous universe, about Jesus. I believe it's one of the big problems of many religions in the world - their teachings focus us in on ourselves.

[quote]140:8.27 The three apostles were shocked this afternoon when they realized that their Master’s religion made no provision for spiritual self-examination. All religions before and after the times of Jesus, even Christianity, carefully provide for conscientious self-examination. But not so with the religion of Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus’ philosophy of life is without religious introspection.[\quote]

Just thinking that I'm way off topic now - sorry, maybe I should move this to a new thread.

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HI Brother kiwi 8)

'' Can you expand on this, Coop, where you said that being reborn changed your life forever?''

Well , This Is A Birthday Thanks I Shared elsewhere
That explains some of my thoughts on your question ,

AMEN !
Happy Birthday Jesus Christ Michael !

Thank You For Saveing Me From Myself , and For Being With Me And Walking With
Me When I Was In The Darkness , Homeless an Sick , Alone an Lonely
A Lost Sheep
and Even Denied You and Turned My Back On You and Our Father .
Yet Threw Your Grace an Mercy and Love , When ALL I Seemd To Have Were Doubts ,
You Gave Me Hope , And Then Greater Hope You Turned Like Water into Wine Into Faith .
An Then To Trust , You Were There When I Was Sick and Hungry an Thirsty ,
You , Your Spirit of Truth and The Holy Spirit Sent The Healing Light Of Love
That Filled My Very Soul , I Was Born Again in The Spirit an Started My Walk With You Into The Light.
When I Was On My Knees in Prayer an Tears I Reached Up Into Your Light Around Me
Only Hopeing To Be Near You or Touch Your Robe Or Finger ,
Yet YOU Grabbed Onto My Hand Firmly Assureing Me That You Will Never Let Go .

I Thank You Daily , Even Though I Still Stumble an Fall You Pick an Lift Me Up .
Your Spirit Of Truth Shows Me The Way into Your Healing Light Of Love an Peace Within .
I Trust You As A Faith Son To Light an Guide My Way In My Thoughts , Words And Deeds .

I Pray For Your Help In Liveing In The Kingdom Now
An Liveing The Golden Rule
Striveing To Be A Second Miler
It Is My Will That Your Will Be Done

AMEN

My Humble Birthday Card To You Jesus
I Love You
From Your Humble Faith Son Coop
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Wow, thanks Coop for all those refs - that is awesome. I am finding it hard to figure out what it means though, to be born of the spirit.

The Urantia Book says that "Those who have received and recognized the indwelling of God have been born of the Spirit." and also "When you enter the kingdom, you are reborn" which makes it seem as though we have been born of the spirit already.

But it also says that "Those God-knowing men and women who have been born of the Spirit experience no more conflict with their mortal natures than do the inhabitants of the most normal of worlds, planets which have never been tainted with sin nor touched by rebellion." which definitely rules me out


Nice prayer/speech COOP :) :).

Hey Kiwi, I have struggled with this concept at times and now I feel from reading the u.b that I have a good grasp on just what this "born of spirit" may be. IMO I am not born of spirit, I am working towards it just like you. The u.b seems to make it obvious that those born of spirit are absolutely sure of their status and they have no question in their mind about this. I have felt this holy spirit in small sort of glimpses threw out my life of this spirit but I have not actually had the full experience of "being born in the holy spirit". You bring up a great quote about how these god-knowing men and women do not experience any conflicts internally. You should also consider that these individuals will start bearing spiritual fruit and other human beings around them will take notice and be attracted to that. There is also a quote in the u.b about how we should be better in essentially all social/service tasks than unbelievers and if we are not significally more adept in our social tasks than we should re-consider that our spirituality as a son of god entirely. I will find these quotes for you like, they are very humbling but also exciting.

Consider also that the holy spirit allows us to utilize the cosmic intuitions talked about in the Master Spirits section of the book. The revelators also go on to explain that "very few humans" think in this manner. So it would appear that not many humans are born of spirit. Also when the revelators talk about "going the 2nd mile" we should consider that these 2nd milers are also born of spirit. Again another part in the book where the revelators say "very few" mortals are going the 2nd mile. There are many humbling places in the book. :).

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Hi kiwi2 --
I think your attitude about the value of TUB (that it's not really about you) is the way most UB readers see the book, at least initially, and I know it's the way I once approached it... it's a big knowledge book... lots of facts and figures, new concepts to learn, things to do, places to go.

Yet, as you begin to understand its epochal significance, revelation #5 in a sequence, and ponder the focus of each of the previous epochal revelations you'll discover that it's not a knowledge book at all; that's not what epochal revelation is about. It is written specifically for you and your spiritual journey. It's not intended for a group; it's intended to talk directly to the person reading it and it's intended to help them transform their spiritual life, if that's their desire. It's the dry sands of knowledge that attracts readers but it's the living truth that keeps them coming back for more as they experience a gradual transformation of their thoughts, meanings and values.

"One of the things that attracted me to the Urantia Book was that I felt it was less about me." It's all about you. God is a personal God; the God of the individual seeker. It's not a "them" book, it's a "U" book.

Larry
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Wonderfully said Larry....and Coop!! :biggrin: kiwi and Boom - it can be difficult to recognize what is intended or meant by some words and phrases and I believe you both misunderstand being born in the Spirit - since you both doubt its occurence in your mind while demonstrating the reality that you are/have been! Do you believe in God the Father? Do you have faith in His love and His power and His plan? Are you a world citizen? A child of a friendly universe? Well then, WELCOME TO THE KINGDOM!!! There is no requirement for a momentary transformation or emotional outpouring to become born of the Spirit. It is simply an attitude of faith....not an understanding of what that means. As we mature in the Spirit and the Kingdom, we become more confident and more poised and less easily thrown off balance by the temporal demands of our life.

Christianity teaches of a moment of consecration while TUB teaches a process of "becoming" through truth discovery and experience within the vicisitudes. The existance of vicitude and confusion does not mean you aren't reborn, it simply means you are still human after all. Even the morontial experience will remain confused and still have those "edges of conflict" within the vicisitudes still to come. Do not doubt the truth you have by the fact of those truths still to experience. It is not the speed we travel but only the direction that determines our motive and our intention and our loyalty and our destination. Fear Not! All who live in hope and in love, will, eventually become more confident in their status - but our status is not dependent on our knowledge of it. Ask God, right now, if you are His child. The confirmation will come one way or another. For you are very important to Him....and will always be so. Peace my fellow Spirit born faith children.

(1592.6) 141:6.4 That night Jesus discoursed to the apostles on the new life in the kingdom. He said in part: “When you enter the kingdom, you are reborn. You cannot teach the deep things of the spirit to those who have been born only of the flesh; first see that men are born of the spirit before you seek to instruct them in the advanced ways of the spirit. Do not undertake to show men the beauties of the temple until you have first taken them into the temple. Introduce men to God and as the sons of God before you discourse on the doctrines of the fatherhood of God and the sonship of men. Do not strive with men — always be patient. It is not your kingdom; you are only ambassadors. Simply go forth proclaiming: This is the kingdom of heaven — God is your Father and you are his sons, and this good news, if you wholeheartedly believe it, is your eternal salvation.”

(1676.3) 149:6.9 “Out of your wrong concepts of the Father in heaven grow your false ideas of humility and springs much of your hypocrisy. Man may be a worm of the dust by nature and origin, but when he becomes indwelt by my Father’s spirit, that man becomes divine in his destiny. The bestowal spirit of my Father will surely return to the divine source and universe level of origin, and the human soul of mortal man which shall have become the reborn child of this indwelling spirit shall certainly ascend with the divine spirit to the very presence of the eternal Father.

(1601.3) 142:5.3 “The Supreme Spirit shall bear witness with your spirits that you are truly the children of God. And if you are the sons of God, then have you been born of the spirit of God; and whosoever has been born of the spirit has in himself the power to overcome all doubt, and this is the victory that overcomes all uncertainty, even your faith.

(1602.6) 142:6.7 And Nicodemus said: “But how can I begin to lay hold upon this spirit which is to remake me in preparation for entering into the kingdom?” Jesus answered: “Already does the spirit of the Father in heaven indwell you. If you would be led by this spirit from above, very soon would you begin to see with the eyes of the spirit, and then by the wholehearted choice of spirit guidance would you be born of the spirit since your only purpose in living would be to do the will of your Father who is in heaven. And so finding yourself born of the spirit and happily in the kingdom of God, you would begin to bear in your daily life the abundant fruits of the spirit.”

(1130.6) 103:2.1 Religion is functional in the human mind and has been realized in experience prior to its appearance in human consciousness. A child has been in existence about nine months before it experiences birth. But the “birth” of religion is not sudden; it is rather a gradual emergence. Nevertheless, sooner or later there is a “birth day.” You do not enter the kingdom of heaven unless you have been “born again” — born of the Spirit. Many spiritual births are accompanied by much anguish of spirit and marked psychological perturbations, as many physical births are characterized by a “stormy labor” and other abnormalities of “delivery.” Other spiritual births are a natural and normal growth of the recognition of supreme values with an enhancement of spiritual experience, albeit no religious development occurs without conscious effort and positive and individual determinations. Religion is never a passive experience, a negative attitude. What is termed the “birth of religion” is not directly associated with so-called conversion experiences which usually characterize religious episodes occurring later in life as a result of mental conflict, emotional repression, and temperamental upheavals.

(1131.1) 103:2.2 But those persons who were so reared by their parents that they grew up in the consciousness of being children of a loving heavenly Father, should not look askance at their fellow mortals who could only attain such consciousness of fellowship with God through a psychological crisis, an emotional upheaval.

(1133.5) 103:4.5 God the Father deals with man his child on the basis, not of actual virtue or worthiness, but in recognition of the child’s motivation — the creature purpose and intent. The relationship is one of parent-child association and is actuated by divine love.

kiwi - do not trouble yourself when a thread takes a turn as sometimes the tangent is the best part!
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