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An issue came up in another thread recently about whether negative numbers (and imaginary numbers, etc.) are real, in the material sense.

Just wanted to raise the question of whether even positive numbers are materially real. I don't think they are, but I'm open to others' views. In what sense is the number 1 real?

When can we say there is 1 of something, and define what the 1 means, in scientific terms, without imposing some kind of non-scientific philosophy? It's so common in language, to say for example there is 1 person, but how can we define a person scientifically? Cut someone's arms and legs off - they are still 1 person. Keep chopping away (sorry, this is a bit macabre) and sooner or later we might have to say that we're not sure if it's 1 person or not. And we don't really know the point in time when a person begins to exist or ends (in scientific terms).

Where I'm going with this is that it seems to me that the number 1 is just a convenience of language. It portrays enough information to be useful, even if there are borderline possibilities or non-definable terms.

But then I have to wonder about numbers used in the Urantia Book. They are used so naturally. Maybe numbers are real in the cosmic philosophic sense, which is why it's so natural for us to apply them to our physical world without a second thought.


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the way i see it...the words "number" and "person" are both abstract concepts of mind...not really real just useful agreed upon symbolisms.

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102:2.5 Even the discoveries of science are not truly real in the consciousness of human experience until they are unraveled and correlated, until their relevant facts actually become meaning through encircuitment in the thought streams of mind.


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Hi Kiwi2. You can cut the material body of one person in two halves. Then you have two half bodies and zero persons. Hopefully the personality survives intact in the spiritual realm. :)

What’s perceived as real depends on perspective. TUB states that: "to spirit beings the material world is almost entirely unreal, being merely a shadow of the substance of spirit realities." (44:0.15) And: "the material as the shadow of the more real spirit substance—does have a philosophic significance." (12:8.16) On the other hand, "Mind, matter, and spirit are equally real, but they are not of equal value to personality in the attainment of divinity." (12:8.15)

A number system represents a concept or idea. According to TUB: "[Experiential] levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems." (2:7.11) "Mind is the technique whereby spirit realities become experiential to creature personalities. And in the last analysis the unifying possibilities of even human mind, the ability to co-ordinate things, ideas, and values, is supermaterial."

Thus, the concept of a number is not material but it is real. Note that the revelators are not sure whether the pattern (reality) of an idea occupies space..

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118:3.7 All patterns of reality occupy space on the material levels, but spirit patterns only exist in relation to space; they do not occupy or displace space, neither do they contain it. But to us the master riddle of space pertains to the pattern of an idea. When we enter the mind domain, we encounter many a puzzle. Does the pattern — the reality — of an idea occupy space? We really do not know, albeit we are sure that an idea pattern does not contain space. But it would hardly be safe to postulate that the immaterial is always nonspatial.


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kiwi2 wrote:
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An issue came up in another thread recently about whether negative numbers (and imaginary numbers, etc.) are real, in the material sense.

Just wanted to raise the question of whether even positive numbers are materially real. I don't think they are, but I'm open to others' views. In what sense is the number 1 real?



I think the only real number in the material sense is zero (0). And zero represents Paradise, the origin, source and destiny of all material existences. Positive numbers can always be added with its negative counterpart and the result is zero. Zero is the eternal constant.


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are real, in the material sense.
I don't know if thoughts are real or not.....but I think there is some cosmic relationship numbers have with reality.

10 represents a material number. 10 also represents individuality. 7 and 3 are also very important numbers.

Uversa is literally U-versa. Or 7 X 3 =21 (U) is the 21st letter. Versa - latin for hub. Uversa is literally the Superuniverse hub of the 7th created Superuniverse which has some relationship with 3 (perhaps 3 members of diety, Father, son and spirit). Or perhaps in this case 3 represents Supremacy. The Supreme beings personality came into being literally by the 3 members of diety.

It is the same with Umajor and Uminor. You can sort of see how they use the letter U as a symbol of 7 X 3.

None of the numbers in the urantia book are arbitrary they all have a meaning. There is a reason there are groupings of 70, or 10, or 7. etc.


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P181:1, 15:13.1 A major sector comprises about one tenth of a superuniverse and consists of one hundred minor sectors, ten thousand local universes, about one hundred billion inhabitable worlds. These major sectors are administered by three Perfections of Days, Supreme Trinity Personalities.


I suck at math, it is my worst subject, but I think its obvoius there is a 10 connection in the organization of all material reality. Of coarse I think its always good to remember that the Universal Father even though he is the 1st person of diety is also the Absolute of Absolutes. Gods Personality exists far higher and greater than the second source of reality and the 3rd source of reality.

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boomshuka wrote:
I don't know if thoughts are real or not. …
Do you really doubt your own thoughts.. (TA)..?


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Do you really doubt your own thoughts.. (TA)..?
He said in a "material sense". I don't know if thought constructs such as a number could be considered tangible (material is tangible). Unless he means something else by "material". Perhaps I just don't follow his question. Obviously the reality that a number represents can be real though.

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An issue came up in another thread recently about whether negative numbers (and imaginary numbers, etc.) are real, in the material sense

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Hi All and welcome to Kiwi2:

I thought I would chime in here if I could because it was my contention in that thread that negative numbers are not real in the physical reality.

Recall my original postulate that reality cannot be divided. The absolute of pattern is Paradise and pattern cannot be divided. Patterns are copies and are thus not subject to divisibility. Also, I employed Fermat's last theorem to illustrate this mathematically.

From this postulate we can go on to say that numbers are real when they are not subject to divisibility. That would be the set of prime numbers. I would include zero and 1 and 2 in that set. All other numbers are compound numbers, meaning that they can be expressed as a sum of two or more prime numbers. This is the prime number theorem. There are no negative numbers in this set by definition.

You may ask, where are primes expressed in physical reality? The order of the electron shells of motion are governed by the prime number distribution, which in turn is governed by the natural logarithm. The natural log is a manifest reality in all physical phenomenon. All growth and decay are subject to this transcendental expression. Even in Euler's equation, Pi is associated with e and governs the sinusoidal cycles. And the Devine ratio, Phi, allows for the perfect proportion of motion so that motion can be added and multiplied to other motion in an imbedded fashion and not interfere. One hundred electrons can inbed their motions to become an electron without the waves of rotation colliding. Therefore, if one can find prime numbers in the fundenental make-up of the ultimatons and electrons, they must be fundemental to physical reality.

Regards, Louis


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boomshuka wrote:
I don't know if thoughts are real or not.....but I think there is some cosmic relationship numbers have with reality.

Not sure about thoughts. On one hand they could be thought of as neural pathways or imprints on the brain or something. But on the other hand, as products of mind they are immaterial just like mind is immaterial. Aren't they?

And yes it does seem as though there is some cosmic relationship numbers have with reality, even if numbers themselves may not be real. Lots of religions have ideas like this.

loucol wrote:
From this postulate we can go on to say that numbers are real when they are not subject to divisibility. That would be the set of prime numbers.

Thanks for the welcome loucol. For me, I can't see where this comes from, or where we could go from it. But it's an interesting idea.


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42:9.2 The number seven is basic to the central universe and the spiritual system of inherent transmissions of character, but the number ten, the decimal system, is inherent in energy, matter, and the material creation.


and of course we know that seven is the number of constructive permutations of three...and quantity is a fact.

Ideas are real but mine take up very little space :lol:


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Let's get physical; let's get REAL.

Has anyone tried to account for 'negative' mass or 'negative' energy? :roll:

Has anyone seen 'imaginary' mass or 'imaginary' energy?

Is not math (numbers) supposed to represent physical reality?

We must keep it real. :wink:


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loucol wrote:
Let's get physical; let's get REAL.

Has anyone tried to account for 'negative' mass or 'negative' energy? :roll:

Has anyone seen 'imaginary' mass or 'imaginary' energy?

Is not math (numbers) supposed to represent physical reality?

We must keep it real. :wink:

I began reading your post with flashes of Olivia Newton John, then finished with flashes of Ali G . lol

kiwi


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