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The more I read TUB, the more I realize that it tells us nothing. It tells us nothing about how everything works. It does tell us bits and pieces about how things are organized, but even there it is quite vague and leaves out a large number of beings.

The more I read TUB, the more my hunger for more information increases. When I think what needs to be happening behind the scenes, the more information I see that is not given to us.

Nothing is told us in regard with what we will be actually learning in Uversa, in Havona or in Paradise, nor what we will be doing if we ever reach the Corps of Finality.

Yet, TUB tells us everything. It tells us everything we need to know today and then some more. It tells us everything that is necessary for our salvation and then some more.

No one can complain that TUB leaves us in the dark - regarding the phase we are living in now. But because it does not tell us much about "the life on the other side", we need faith and a lot of it. We need to have faith to believe that what will come "behind the veil" is what we want. If we believe otherwise, we will decline eternal life. This is a huge decision that will literally affect our life for ever.

So far, what I have read and what I have understood from TUB, makes me want more. It makes me want to see behind the scenes, to be part of the eternal life career that has been offered to me. TUB tells me enough.


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As far as our current situation is concerned, I find that the UB does leave us in the dark about some things of religious significance that we might be concerned to know about.

For example, over the years I've heard UB readers offer the theory that things such as the Book of Mormon and the visions of Ellen G. White were "attempts" or "experiments" in revelation, that didn't quite work out. The UB itself is silent on these other alleged revelations. It mentions the Koran twice, but says nothing about its status as revelation. The UB calls John "the Revelator" and says,

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139:4.14 When in temporary exile on Patmos, John wrote the Book of Revelation, which you now have in greatly abridged and distorted form. This Book of Revelation contains the surviving fragments of a great revelation, large portions of which were lost, other portions of which were removed, subsequent to John’s writing. It is preserved in only fragmentary and adulterated form.


One can only wonder what this "great revelation" was and how John incorporated its "surviving fragments" into what he wrote.

The UB generally takes a dim view of miracles, although it doesn't quite say that they don't occur. This is something that I've researched a bit, and although the field of the miraculous is a very mixed bag, there do seem to be some pretty compelling cases. The UB says, among other things,

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136:8.2 Jesus very wisely foresaw that the working of miracles and the execution of wonders would call forth only outward allegiance by overawing the material mind; such performances would not reveal God nor save men.


I'm not so sure. From my study, I'd have to say that many miracles have resulted not in "outward allegiance" but in profound conversion experiences. Granted, such things don't prove anything, nor should they be expected to. There's always plausible deniability. But to say that they don't in principle "reveal God" to anyone seems just wrong to me. In any event, I find the UB's treatment of this potentially important topic pretty thin.

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137:4.13 But this was in no sense a miracle. No law of nature was modified, abrogated, or even transcended. Nothing happened but the abrogation of time in association with the celestial assembly of the chemical elements requisite for the elaboration of the wine.


But the laws of nature include essential references to time! If I were to jump from a tall building and some celestial agency were to cause me to float slowly to the ground, instead of falling at the usual rate, it would be very strange indeed to say that no miracle happened, only the "abrogation of time"! I just find that in conjunction with miracles, the UB says just enough to be confusing, but not enough to be enlightening.

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ubizmo wrote:
... the laws of nature include essential references to time! If I were to jump from a tall building and some celestial agency were to cause me to float slowly to the ground, instead of falling at the usual rate, it would be very strange indeed to say that no miracle happened, only the "abrogation of time"! I just find that in conjunction with miracles, the UB says just enough to be confusing, but not enough to be enlightening.
Hi Todd. According to TUB: "Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness." (130:7.4). The "abrogation of time" may then denote the abrogation of "creature consciousness" of this "stream of temporal events". I guess such a non-experience "would not reveal God nor save men"..


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Bart wrote:
ubizmo wrote:
... the laws of nature include essential references to time! If I were to jump from a tall building and some celestial agency were to cause me to float slowly to the ground, instead of falling at the usual rate, it would be very strange indeed to say that no miracle happened, only the "abrogation of time"! I just find that in conjunction with miracles, the UB says just enough to be confusing, but not enough to be enlightening.
Hi Todd. According to TUB: "Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness." (130:7.4). The "abrogation of time" may then denote the abrogation of "creature consciousness" of this "stream of temporal events". I guess such a non-experience "would not reveal God nor save men"..


Is this meant to imply that there is no such thing as unperceived time? If so, then all laws of nature and physical constants would have to be re-construed to have no reference to time. We couldn't talk about the speed of light, since any reference to motion implies change of position in time, and so on. Re-writing the laws of nature to expunge all references to time would entail capturing the principles that we currently represent temporally in some other way. Even in such an alternative construal of nature, the rapid dissolution of the body of Jesus, relying as it did upon personal initiative rather than natural law, would have to count as a miracle.

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ubizmo wrote:
Is this meant to imply that there is no such thing as unperceived time? If so, then all laws of nature and physical constants would have to be re-construed to have no reference to time.
I’m not sure what you mean by "unperceived time". "Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness." (130:7.4). If creature consciousness is abrogated, then there is no time.
ubizmo wrote:
We couldn't talk about the speed of light, since any reference to motion implies change of position in time, and so on. Re-writing the laws of nature to expunge all references to time would entail capturing the principles that we currently represent temporally in some other way.
Correct. And that "other way" might be a timeless (spiritual) experience. :) And rewriting the laws of nature without reference to time, might be surprisingly simple. But, of course, any generally useful formal/scientific/logical definition of physical reality must somehow incorporate this complex temporal aspect of reality which is evident in our normal conscious experience.
ubizmo wrote:
Even in such an alternative construal of nature, the rapid dissolution of the body of Jesus, relying as it did upon personal initiative rather than natural law, would have to count as a miracle.
I don’t see that. Many thousands of years may have passed, "unperceived" by mortals..


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I have always found this kind of prediction to be interesting and encouraging - and far from nothing...

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112:7.17 We believe that the mortals of Adjuster fusion, together with their finaliter associates, are destined to function in some manner in the administration of the universes of the first outer space level. We have not the slightest doubt that in due time these enormous galaxies will become inhabited universes. And we are equally convinced that among the administrators thereof will be found the Paradise finaliters whose natures are the cosmic consequence of the blending of creature and Creator.

112:7.18 What an adventure! What a romance! A gigantic creation to be administered by the children of the Supreme, these personalized and humanized Adjusters, these Adjusterized and eternalized mortals, these mysterious combinations and eternal associations of the highest known manifestation of the essence of the First Source and Center and the lowest form of intelligent life capable of comprehending and attaining the Universal Father. We conceive that such amalgamated beings, such partnerships of Creator and creature, will become superb rulers, matchless administrators, and understanding and sympathetic directors of any and all forms of intelligent life which may come into existence throughout these future universes of the first outer space level.


Becoming administrators of worlds in the outer space galaxies seems like pretty exciting prospect...

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Bart wrote:
I’m not sure what you mean by "unperceived time". "Time is the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness." (130:7.4). If creature consciousness is abrogated, then there is no time.


Yup, that's what I meant.

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ubizmo wrote:
Even in such an alternative construal of nature, the rapid dissolution of the body of Jesus, relying as it did upon personal initiative rather than natural law, would have to count as a miracle.
I don’t see that. Many thousands of years may have passed, "unperceived" by mortals..


That's certainly interesting. So, if I understand you, time could have been "frozen" for millenia, while the remains of Jesus returned to dust. For this to work, however, those remains alone would havd had to be exempted from the abrogation, which would still count as miraculous. When celestial agencies fiddle with time, resulting in it affecting different things differently, the result is a miracle, if that word means anything at all.

Returning to the general point about what the UB does and doesn't tell us about things, I would gladly have a clearer picture of miracles.

@maryjoe606 -- The idea that we could have a mission in eternity, as opposed to some sort of resting place, is one of the UB's most powerful ideas, in my view.

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That's how I feel about it, too, ubizmo...what a concept! That we will become ambassadors of universe government to worlds that will probably be something like this one, in evolutionary development. And we will have gotten that privilege of service due to our long, long experience - from the lowest to the highest...pretty good payoff!!!

And yes - powerful prospect...

Thanks...


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Pertti I am not sure why you have not found any thing in the U.B. unless you aren't reading it.

I remember in my first read through how I began to cry as it became so clear just how we traverse from Moral flesh to all the spheres of spiritual ascent .... I knew as a child that the whole sitting on a cloud playing a harp thing was foolish, but know one was offering any thing better, Now i have an amazing view of a journey i can't wait to be a part of.

I finally have a understanding of Christ i truly can believe in.

I found verbal clarity to express all that i had been feelling and experiencing in my personal walk with God.

the list goes on and on as to how much information is in the Urania Book.

I hope you find it as i have as well as thousands of other people around the world.


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J. Barry wrote:
Pertti I am not sure why you have not found any thing in the U.B. unless you aren't reading it.

I didn't say that I did not get anything out of it. On the contrary, I have gotten much more from it than from any book ever!

However, I still see that there will be so much that we'll be seeing in the future life that in comparison what TUB says is nothing. Likewise as our life here is nothing when compared to the life after.

Every paper I read from TUB just increases my appetite for more information. :)


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ubizmo wrote:
As far as our current situation is concerned, I find that the UB does leave us in the dark about some things of religious significance that we might be concerned to know about.

Maybe in terms of religious significance - but not in terms of becoming a son of God and finding an eternal life.


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pertti wrote:
Maybe in terms of religious significance - but not in terms of becoming a son of God and finding an eternal life.


Perhaps it gives us more than we need for that purpose. But having researched religious miracle cures and similar things, I find myself very confused about their significance. I would have hoped that the UB would have something to say that would make the meaning of these phenomena clearer.

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Maybe in terms of religious significance - but not in terms of becoming a son of God and finding an eternal life.


Pertti you can maybe rest a little easier at night knowing that all you need is a flicker of faith and you will be able to go to the mansion worlds in the next life :). You don't HAVE to become a spiritual adult in this lifetime to go to the mansion worlds. hahaha. but I suppose it is sort of dangerous to put it off.

Knowledge of how jesus lived his life is the most important human knowledge we can have. This knowledge WILL lead to sonship if the mortal is co-operative with his adjuster. If you could grow you're faith into a living faith of god and than lay that faith as a foundation for a trust in god you would slowly become a spiritual adult son of god. Sonship is a free gift and an exhualted gift for all men and jesus showed mortals how to attain sonship. If you are experiecing "futile yearning" than you are not "obeying" the truth. Obeying =action, action= unselfish loving service = sonship. Pretty simple stuff, not overly complicated. The spirit of truth is a fulcrum of "Unselfish loving service" and it will power-multiply your spiritual fruit when you begin that service. You can start small with your unselfish loving service, and the spirit of truth with power-multiply you and your efforts. If you are unable to love other human beings though and serve them than I suggest prayer and worship as a means of helping you get somewhere. God will make your love real, what the creature desires and god wills IS.

As for time, it is real in a finite sense "creatures of time and space". Its only when you get into paradise does time cease to exist, but its hard to understand the light by just judging its shadow. That is why God's will goes threw the supreme and can be recognized by creatures of time and space. The supreme is the high limit of finite time and space and it functions in time, mortal man can recognize the "outworking of the will of god" as it passes threw the supreme and into the individuality of the finite moment. The infinite does not blot out the finite. Jesus was not born as a perfect human. "none is good but god", but he became perfect threw finite time "who accuses me of sin".

As for miracles, I would say that the u.b describes how Faith can heal certain illnesses but that this is not miraculous and there is a limit to what faith can heal. As for cellestial beings making themselves appear before human's the u.b does not really seem to think that those events are miraculous. As for how the urantia paper's were given, threw a subject the u.b does not seem to think that the event was miraculous. Some humans are just "favourably positioned by their thought adjusters". However humans will never have the healing powers of Jesus lol, he had full control over the life carriers and all other cellestial beings.

For me though what is miraculous is how paul of tarsus was able to view morontia substance in some vision. I have no idea how he was able to do that, and the u.b doesn't explain how that happened. Also there are a few other times where they tell how prophets knew of exact things in heaven. Such as the state of lucifer etc. How these prophets knew so much to me seems miraculous and I have no idea and I haven't found anything in the u.b that explains that.

One of the apostles I believed viewed the living directional compasses, and these beasts apparently have been misportrayed by humans. My question is how have these beasts been portrayed at all?!!?!. Also how is it possible that so many prophets knew about lucifer and the state of lucifer haha.

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ubizmo wrote:
... So, if I understand you, time could have been "frozen" for millenia, while the remains of Jesus returned to dust.
Well, not exactly.. I think TUB indicates that time, or "the stream of flowing temporal events perceived by creature consciousness", is not an aspect or property of absolute reality or God; who exists timelessly as the primary cause of all temporal (subinfinite) creature consciousness. Thus, time – our conscious sense (concept) of the fundamental sequentiality of material events – may only be "abrogated" by abrogating (all) creature consciousness, then 'continue' the timeless stuff, and 'subsequently' restore creature consciousness. Time itself cannot be nullified or "frozen", because it only exists (as an illusion) in our temporal consciousness of absolute reality..


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We are like the shadow world hahah. but the shadow world or the finite is still real. Its finite real, it doesn't cease to exist because god is infinite and absolute though. The supreme being functions in finite reality. God delegated the creation of finite creation to his son's.

Idealism is not a practicall philosophical stance to take in regards to how the universe is portrayed in the u.b. We live within a finite womb I guess is another viewpoint to look at it, and urantia is a birthing planet of souls.

Spirit substance actually does intermingle with material creation. Material things can be like vessels for spirit substance. A human finite creature can be a vessel for spirit substance. Life is animated by spirit, so the material can still be called life. There is real value in material life.

An idealist and a materialist would be at loggerheads because one would look only at absolute reality (Idealist) and the other would only look at Mechanistic reality (Materialist), True reality is that the Absolute by way of his sons and associates can function threw the "outworking of his will" all the way down to the material creature's and animate them as real son's of value.

The Absolute can downstep itself threw the supreme being and in time and space to meet material man on his level, thus god finds man first and than man finds god. Essentially the supreme is the womb or god the mother.

"the fruits of the spirit are the substance of the supreme as he is realizable in human experience" 117.6.7

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