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 Post subject: I have a question..
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I read this paragraph and it made me ponder:
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2:1.5 No thing is new to God, and no cosmic event ever comes as a surprise; he inhabits the circle of eternity. He is without beginning or end of days. To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment. He is the great and only I AM.

So.... if God already knows your whole life from begining to end... the what about free will?? Does that mean that God already knows what you will decide to to... or is your end constantly changing based on the decisions you make?


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Very good question, Nicki Jane! :) I think this is the most fundamental question a free-will being can ask. Its explanation may be the central theme of The Urantia Book as well as the scriptures of all great religious philosophies.

TUB states we do have relative free will. This means we cannot choose beyond what can be chosen. I guess somehow the I AM knows about all our possible paths, thus he can afford to allow us to make free-will choices. In the final analysis, your quote (2:1.5) doesn’t say God knows the exact future, though he might know what the future will not be.

My personal interpretation is that all possible future is contained in every moment (as a product of the past). But this doesn’t necessarily imply absolute determinism..


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The answer lies directly within the quote you posted. God has a perspective which does indeed allow him to be completely omniscient. God exists outside of time and space! ["To God there is no past, present, or future; all time is present at any given moment."] He can view the entirety of time and space at whatever point he chooses. He can see the whole picture of all the choices we have made, are making and will make, because he's got a "bird's eye view", as it were. We, on the other hand, are inside of time and space and must experience existence linearly. Here is an analogy which may help you visualize this concept.

Imagine you have a video camera and you follow a particular person around for his entire life. You see when and what he eats, whom he dates, when he trips over a curb, etc. Now imagine you have the ability to travel in time to any point of that person's life. You see him walking toward the curb and you KNOW he is going to trip. You see him look at the menu and you KNOW he is going to order a cheeseburger, medium well with ketchup. Does your knowing what he is going to do negate his choices at those moments in time? No, of course it doesn't. It only means you have already seen what he is going to do because you witnessed it and you can refer to the recording of his entire life. God knows everything we have done, are doing and will do because he can look at time and space like we would look at a home movie or a DVD, but we don't have that luxury. God decided that we would experience time in a linear fashion, one instant at a time. Though in reality we have already made all the choices we will make in the space-time continuum, our consciousness is only focused on what is happening right now.

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"If a man places a gulf between himself and God, this gulf will bring fear. But if a man finds the support of the Invisible and Ineffable, he is free from fear." --from the Taittiriya Upanishad


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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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Hi Tony. How does your analogy explain our (relative) free will?


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Whoa thats way deep.. hard to wrap your mind around..


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God sees all the variables and knows the out come of every one of them, he live our lives as we live them and is inspired as we make new choices that direct us down one of the better paths he saw we could have taken. but not surprised if we choose one that is not as productive and edifying to our spiritual development, but than again every turn in the road can be edifying to soul :) it all depend if we learn any thing from each turn or not lol


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And also remember that a fragment of Him lives in you and experiencing this life with you. Before the TA indwelt you, he had made a plan for you and is always working to pilot you in the direction he plotted for you but you are still the captain of your ship. You can choose to trust your pilot or run aground.


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THE
I AM THE ALPHA AND OMEGA
May well know the Begining and the End ...
And may foreknow the various variety of of the
limited Freewill Choices we Can and May Make ...

'' But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such FOREKNOWLEDGE does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.'' :wink:

GODS FOREKNOWLEDGE 8)

3.3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such FOREKNOWLEDGE does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise.


4.3.4 God repents of nothing he has ever done, now does, or ever will do. He is all-wise as well as all-powerful. Man’s wisdom grows out of the trials and errors of human experience; God’s wisdom consists in the unqualified perfection of his infinite universe insight, and this divine FOREKNOWLEDGE effectively directs the creative free will.


118.7.1 7. OMNISCIENCE AND PREDESTINATION The function of Creator will and creature will, in the grand universe, operates within the limits, and in accordance with the possibilities, established by the Master Architects. This foreordination of these maximum limits does not, however, in the least abridge the sovereignty of creature will within these boundaries. Neither does ultimate FOREKNOWLEDGE — full allowance for all finite choice — constitute an abrogation of finite volition. A mature and farseeing human being might be able to forecast the decision of some younger associate most accurately, but this FOREKNOWLEDGE takes nothing away from the freedom and genuineness of the decision itself. The Gods have wisely limited the range of the action of immature will, but it is true will, nonetheless, within these defined limits.


118.7.2 Even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice does not invalidate the authenticity of such choosings. It rather indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos and suggests FOREKNOWLEDGE of those volitional beings who may, or may not, elect to become contributory parts of the experiential actualization of all reality.


161.3.2 We can understand his unique performances only by accepting the theory that he could, at will, self-limit his divinity consciousness. We are fully cognizant that he frequently withheld from his associates his FOREKNOWLEDGE of events, and that he was aware of the nature of their thinking and planning. We understand that he did not wish his followers to know too fully that he was able to discern their thoughts and to penetrate their plans. He did not desire too far to transcend the concept of the human as it was held in the minds of his apostles and disciples.

194.4.4 What has happened to these men whom Jesus had ordained to go forth preaching the gospel of the kingdom, the fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man? They have a new gospel; they are on fire with a new experience; they are filled with a new spiritual energy. Their message has suddenly shifted to the proclamation of the risen Christ: “Jesus of Nazareth, a man God approved by mighty works and wonders; him, being delivered up by the determinate counsel and FOREKNOWLEDGE of God, you did crucify and slay. The things which God foreshadowed by the mouth of all the prophets, he thus fulfilled. This Jesus did God raise up. God has made him both Lord and Christ. Being, by the right hand of God, exalted and having received from the Father the promise of the spirit, he has poured forth this which you see and hear. Repent, that your sins may be blotted out; that the Father may send the Christ, who has been appointed for you, even Jesus, whom the heaven must receive until the times of the restoration of all things.”


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 Post subject: Re: I have a question..
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Kinda reminds me of when jesus told peter that he would deny him 3 times and Peter said no I would never deny you... then to his surprise before he knew it, he did.


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Bart, I'm not sure what you're asking. In my analogy we still have our (relative) free will. We still make the choices. God knows those choices we have made/are making/will make because sees the entire timeline and can jump in at any point he chooses. We don't have that same ability. We're stuck in the "now" and can only see the current moment and those that have already passed. I'm not saying it's predestination. From our point of view it may indeed look like that, but the choices we WILL make in the future are still OUR choices. We just aren't aware we've made them yet because of God's decision to have our consciousness limited to linear experience even though God himself is aware of those choices we will make because he's not limited to linear time.

I'm not sure that's any more clear than what I said before but I'm not sure how else to explain it. :)

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"If a man places a gulf between himself and God, this gulf will bring fear. But if a man finds the support of the Invisible and Ineffable, he is free from fear." --from the Taittiriya Upanishad


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Tony wrote:
Bart, I'm not sure what you're asking. In my analogy we still have our (relative) free will. We still make the choices. God knows those choices we have made/are making/will make because sees the entire timeline and can jump in at any point he chooses. …

Hi Tony. Nicki Jane’s original question was: if God already knows our life from beginning to end, then how can we have free will? And you say: God knows the choices we made, we are making, and we will make, but we still make these choices ourselves.

The problem with your view (if I understand you correctly) is that if at any moment God already knows our exact future choices, then (per definition) we do not have free will. Free will implies some measure of (relative) freedom to choose what we want, such that it cannot (or will not) be predicted in any way with absolute certainty by anything but our own free will, not even by God.

TUB states: "Mortal man is endowed with free will, the power of choice, and though such choosing is not absolute, nevertheless, it is relatively final on the finite level and concerning the destiny of the choosing personality" (118:6.4). And: "Even the supreme correlation of all past, present, and future choice does not invalidate the authenticity of such choosings. It rather indicates the foreordained trend of the cosmos and suggests foreknowledge of those volitional beings who may, or may not, elect to become contributory parts of the experiential actualization of all reality" (118:7.2)

I think this means that although all past, present, and future is (supremely) correlated – "the foreordained trend of the cosmos" –, we still can freely choose at each moment from a finite number of possibilities. All of these may be known by God, but he cannot (or does not) know or predict our exact path or specific sequence of personal choices, before we made them.
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118:6.6 In the mortal life, paths of differential conduct are continually opening and closing, and during the times when choice is possible the human personality is constantly deciding between these many courses of action. Temporal volition is linked to time, and it must await the passing of time to find opportunity for expression. Spiritual volition has begun to taste liberation from the fetters of time, having achieved partial escape from time sequence, and that is because spiritual volition is self-identifying with the will of God.
You see, I think that in our mortal life we make a finite number of relative, sequential, free will choices at the frontline of creation called now. And now is also where God (who is all, and in whom we all live and move and have our being) eternally makes his infinite, continuous, absolute free will choice(s), which (only) limit(s) our human free will choices.. :)


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COOP I am so glad you found this quote in reference to Nikki's question, I was going to look for it painfully just for this topic lol.

"GODS FOREKNOWLEDGE

3.3.4 We are not wholly certain as to whether or not God chooses to foreknow events of sin. But even if God should foreknow the freewill acts of his children, such FOREKNOWLEDGE does not in the least abrogate their freedom. One thing is certain: God is never subjected to surprise."

I think this just speak's to how the revelator's don't put limit's on gods power......It just makes me happy to read these quote's because I am sooo much impressed with God's ability's hahaha.

Bart that line you had "(who is all, and in whom we all live and move and have our being" definitely sum's how I feel about this topic. That is a great quote from the U.B book, I wish I would have thought to have posted it lol.

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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boomshuka wrote:
Bart that line you had "(who is all, and in whom we all live and move and have our being" definitely sum's how I feel about this topic. That is a great quote from the U.B book, I wish I would have thought to have posted it lol.
Well, thanks Boomshuka..:) BTW, which particular TUB passage do you think is the most expressive of this idea or thought or concept?


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Bart wrote:
boomshuka wrote:
Bart that line you had "(who is all, and in whom we all live and move and have our being" definitely sum's how I feel about this topic. That is a great quote from the U.B book, I wish I would have thought to have posted it lol.
Well, thanks Boomshuka..:) BTW, which particular TUB passage do you think is the most expressive of this idea or thought or concept?


Hmmmm, so many sentence's to choose from....hahaha, this one I kinda like in relation to that quote.


28.6) 1:5.9 As we see the Universal Father revealed throughout his universe; as we discern him indwelling his myriads of creatures; as we behold him in the persons of his Sovereign Sons; as we continue to sense his divine presence here and there, near and afar, let us not doubt nor question his personality primacy. Notwithstanding all these far-flung distributions, he remains a true person and everlastingly maintains personal connection with the countless hosts of his creatures scattered throughout the universe of universes.

what line do you think goes well with that quote?

random thought....- I like thinking about God haha "He will be kept in perfect peace whose mind is stayed on God"

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Bart wrote:
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You see, I think that in our mortal life we make a finite number of relative, sequential, free will choices at the frontline of creation called now. And now is also where God (who is all, and in whom we all live and move and have our being) eternally makes his infinite, continuous, absolute free will choice(s), which (only) limit(s) our human free will choices..


But our NOW is different from God's NOW. Our NOW is just this moment in time but God's NOW is simultaneous in all time. Our view is of linear sequentiality but God's is of circular simultaneity.


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