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 Post subject: Re: How Can This Be?
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Enno says: "They're all in on it. But what's worse is the attitude."

Hahahahaha!! The source of all grand conspiracies....They....and....Them!!! :roll:

Nod/Enno demonstrates the result of brainwashing and the swallowing of camels as the power elite divides and conquers the They and the Them!! How very gullible and blind and immature and foolish and counterproductive. He is not alone in such affliction.

:!: :idea: 8)


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fanofVan wrote:
Enno says: "They're all in on it. But what's worse is the attitude."

Hahahahaha!! The source of all grand conspiracies....They....and....Them!!! :roll:


It's because of things like this ^ that this forum is destroyed.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
fanofVan wrote:
Enno says: "They're all in on it. But what's worse is the attitude."

Hahahahaha!! The source of all grand conspiracies....They....and....Them!!! :roll:


It's because of things like this ^ that this forum is destroyed.


Destroyed?? Hmmmm….. Of course...things are as you say they are! Or....are they?

A little Zen:

Things are not as they appear....and neither are they different!

And neither can they or will they be different until we change ourselves, our lens, and our perspective....or our maturity and wisdom and spiritization!!! There is only one objective reality but there are trillions of limited and subjective perspective (and therefore inaccurate and incomplete) of that one reality. Things are as they appear to be only from the Center of All Things and not from the edge of everything.

Namaste 8)


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Agon D. Onter wrote:
The lack of the ability to think and behave as unique personalities is extremely evident and is very saddening


This is the attitude that caused your side to lose the election the last time.

And it will again be the main catalyst for the reelection of the president this time.

The election is about you.



Do you mean this election?

https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2020/05 ... ign-flails


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nodAmanaV wrote:
They're all in on it.

But what's worse is the attitude.



When somebody on a forum starts referring to himself as "we" and divides everyone up between "we" and "they", two things start happening:

1. My bullshit detector starts blinking red.
2. I realize I have no idea, what and who I am dealing with.

Only online can people hide behind such nonsense...


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Enno's Modus Operandi here over 5 years and 1300+ posts is consistant and predictable.

:-& :?


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From Agon D. Onter:


Paul,
Can you be more specific as to whom exactly you are referring to when you use the term "Religious right leaning citizens". By what characteristics do you identify them? How do you recognize one who is "religious right leaning" as opposed to .... religious left leaning? I guess? Or non-religious leaning of either persuasion? The Urantia Book sheds a lot of light on this question.

When groups of individuals align under a label of any type, be it "atheists", "fundamentalists", "religious right", "Christians", they are doing it purely for political and social purposes. It has nothing to do with the individuals' unique and personal relationship with God. Therefore, saying that "the Religious right are the very same people who are the scaffolding upon which the new UB gospel of Jesus aka; the brother/sisterhood of mankind will be built," is not correct, according to the Urantia Book.

Just to give one example. The political/social group who label themselves "Religious right" are the same ones who loudly proclaim and attempt to enforce that women should not be allowed choice. Yet, we know from the Urantia Book that free will is sovereign. Even God will not take away a person's will to choose what is best for him or herself.



Okay, Please be patient with me as I try to explain a complex situation.

My term "Religious right leaning citizens" refers primarily to the Republican base. Those who would call themselves "Christian" in today's America. The very same people who will attempt to re-elect our current president. The very same people you list in the sentence directly above this sentence, those who are anti-abortion, etc. They are primarily institutionally religious--for lack of a better term. Although you may disagree that these people are NOT the scaffolding upon which the new brotherhood/sisterhood will be built. I cannot agree with you on that issue because of my interpretation of the quotes below (I believe that it is these people--however flawed--who are preserving Christianity in today's times against the onslaught of materialism/atheism/secularism) and because of this preparation are paving the way for the real Jesus...aka the coming brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind.


195:4.4 (2075.2) Christianity exhibits a history of having originated out of the unintended transformation of the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus. It further presents the history of having experienced Hellenization, paganization, secularization, institutionalization, intellectual deterioration, spiritual decadence, moral hibernation, threatened extinction, later rejuvenation, fragmentation, and more recent relative rehabilitation. Such a pedigree is indicative of inherent vitality and the possession of vast recuperative resources. And this same Christianity is now present in the civilized world of Occidental peoples and stands face to face with a struggle for existence which is even more ominous than those eventful crises which have characterized its past battles for dominance.


195:3.9 (2074.4) Even a good religion could not save a great empire from the sure results of lack of individual participation in the affairs of government, from overmuch paternalism, overtaxation and gross collection abuses, unbalanced trade with the Levant which drained away the gold, amusement madness, Roman standardization, the degradation of woman, slavery and race decadence, physical plagues, and a state church which became institutionalized nearly to the point of spiritual barrenness.


In the last sentence of 195:4.4 the UB states (and I agree) that "Christianity" is facing its greatest struggle for survival today then ever before...which the Religious right/Republican base--whatever label we give it--is preserving!!

In 195:3.9 the Republican base is opposed to the following from this paragraph: overmuch paternalism, overtaxation and gross collection abuses, unbalanced trade, amusement madness, spiritual barrenness. the Democratic base is opposed to the following from this paragraph: standardization, the degradation of woman, slavery and race decadence, a state church.



Yet regardless of all our woes and worries and faults and shortcomings, I am not too disturbed by our problems because we will eventually find our way out of them. I remind myself to think like the quote below:

195:5.13 (2076.4) When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil.




I hope that helps answer your question.

Paul


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Jerry said:


What you see as the demonization of American Christianity is due to some sectors of American Christianity having been polluted with nationalism, racism, sexism, materialism and still stuck in many superstitious belief systems:

195:9.9 (2083.5) Christianity has dared to lower its ideals before the challenge of human greed, war-madness, and the lust for power; but the religion of Jesus stands as the unsullied and transcendent spiritual summons, calling to the best there is in man to rise above all these legacies of animal evolution and, by grace, attain the moral heights of true human destiny.

195:9.10 (2083.6) Christianity is threatened by slow death from formalism, overorganization, intellectualism, and other nonspiritual trends. The modern Christian church is not such a brotherhood of dynamic believers as Jesus commissioned continuously to effect the spiritual transformation of successive generations of mankind.

195:9.11 (2083.7) So-called Christianity has become a social and cultural movement as well as a religious belief and practice. The stream of modern Christianity drains many an ancient pagan swamp and many a barbarian morass; many olden cultural watersheds drain into this present-day cultural stream as well as the high Galilean tablelands which are supposed to be its exclusive source.


There's another passage in the UB that says that modern Christianity has become so involved in the economic and political system of today's world that it can no longer function as a religion. I've long thought that nothing turns people away from God better than religion. Though every religion has its core teachings and truth, so much of religion fails to create unity, but instead merely creates uniformity among its adherents. Every in-group seems to need an out-group.

As far as the lowering of the status of the white male, keep in mind that America was founded on the enslavement of the black race and the decimation of the red race. The white male has held the dominant position in our country for centuries, a position that obviously he wants to hold on to. But the rights of women, of gay people, of blacks, asians and hispanics are of equal value, at least in my value system. I think the UB makes it clear that in the current world, with many millenniums of racial amalgamation, that there is no one superior race. Instead what we seem to have are superior and inferior genetics spread throughout every race. This is what racists cannot comprehend; that there are brilliant, wise and decent people within every race and there are stupid, criminal, indecent and evil people within every race. This is why it is so critically important to view people as unique personalities, just as the UB says. As humans, we are all the same in countless ways, yet paradoxically, and mysteriously, we are each unique because God made it so. So why do so many not behave and think as unique personalities? Why is originality and creativity not expressed in so many? Why are humans so terrified of change and uncertainty?




Very Well Said, thank you for this... I think although we have a horrific past on our planet, we have come a long way, even in my short lifetime. Looking back I can see that we are progressing. It just takes time--generations!

Paul


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fanofVan wrote:
It is interesting to note, and historically factual, that from 1945 to 1985, the poorest third and middle third and richest third of Americans shared in all the gains in net income and net worth (total wealth) in lock step and proportionately. Beginning with Mr. Reagan's trickle down (or voodoo) economics policies of the mid-80's and the rise of the so called Moral Majority and pulpit politics of the far right (including Klanners and anti-abortionist radicals and the gun lobby and the armageddonists and immigrant haters Union of America - home of Rush and Breitbart and the conspiracy nuts amongst us - yes, they know who we are - creepy), the middle class has been indebted and impoverished and the poor nose dived into oblivion and despair.

The graph of income and wealth by decile has completely changed the past 35 years. The radical rich right has indeed taken over and now blame those who it enslaved for their enslavement!

An amazing reversal of epic proportions. We are all losers by that result.

And now comes forth one of the victims warning us that we are responsible for the conspiracy opposing today's buffoons and clowns. But it is WE who do not understand. Lordy, Lordy, Lordy...

Someone pinch me..... :-s


Some supporting reference data:

https://www.pewsocialtrends.org/2020/01 ... ality_1-4/

Since 1983, middle class share of wealth declined from 32% to 17% in 2016 while the upper class increased from 60% to 80% of national wealth.

Income gap disparity was even worse. This is a problem.

Middle class aggregate income fell from 62% of gross US household income to 40% while upper class income rose from 29% to 48%.

Political drama is a diversion and distraction imposed upon the unthinking lemmings to facilitate fleecing them by picking their pockets while orchestrating materialism and lust and envy and controlling the media sideshow lapdog to create fear and confusion and perpetuate blame upon the victims.

Not new...or different this time. Same conspiracy of power to dominate. Political parties are not differential in motive, only in strategy and tactic, and not so much of that either. People must think and act and demand transparency and accountability for democratic principles to succeed.

I appreciate the frustrations expressed here. We are taught to be patient in our activism and have faith in inevitable planetary destiny by the evolutionary forces of personal spiritization and experiential wisdom. This will take some time. In the meantime choices matter...let us make better ones!



8)


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I appreciate the frustrations expressed here. We are taught to be patient in our activism and have faith in inevitable planetary destiny by the evolutionary forces of personal spiritization and experiential wisdom. This will take some time. In the meantime choices matter...let us make better ones!


I appreciate peoples' frustrations, too. I feel them greatly in these turbulent times.

I think it's high time to examine and re-examine the dangers of capitalism. What we are seeing in our world - and it seems to be world-wide - is an ugly underside to capitalism. And I believe the problem lies in the inability or unwillingness of the very rich and powwrful to be able to empathize with their fellows. There's a hardness and cruelty that bothers me...or am I imagining that?

There has to be a limit somehow placed on the accumulation of wealth - at least a movement to demand an equitable taxation of that wealth to benefit society in general. The president of the US - on national TV - declares himself "smart" for evading taxes. This kind of leadership seems to me to be very dangerous and retrograde. Meanwhile the middle class is shrinking and the income gap widens. Soon there will be only two classes - the rich and the poor.

Good section about capitalsim here:

https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-69-primitive-human-institutions?criteria=capitalism#U69_5_1

Quote:
69:5.15 Though capital has tended to liberate man, it has greatly complicated his social and industrial organization. The abuse of capital by unfair capitalists does not destroy the fact that it is the basis of modern industrial society. Through capital and invention the present generation enjoys a higher degree of freedom than any that ever preceded it on earth. This is placed on record as a fact and not in justification of the many misuses of capital by thoughtless and selfish custodians.


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Thanks Maryjo!!

I think it best to consider our political and social circumstances and realities by attempting a longer time unit perspective and greater objectivity within the context of evolutionary progress!

Impatience and disappointments and frustrations indicate a certain immaturity in perspective we are taught. There is great progress to be considered in the 20th and 21st centuries. In some ways the inhumanity and indifference of capitalism is being exposed and the suffering it creates and those who perpetuate that suffering are being revealed in ways that will deliver objection, activism, and change.

Indeed, as a child of the 60's (white, male, boomer, privileged - if poor - we called it free, white, male, and 21 back in the 70's so we definitely knew of our own power and privileged status compared to those of color or female), there are many trajectories of progress I have witnessed and am encouraged about!! Doom and gloomers are neither correct or helpful in the efforts to bring Light and Life to our world. Disappointment does not help. Nor does anxiety or fear. We need courage and hope and the light of truth and the Spirit within to SEE reality beyond the apparent inadequacies and inferiorities of the worst of humanity.

Those who see no progress are merely blind to time...not correct. Our frustration, disappointment, and impatience are a result of mismanaged time unit perspective....immaturity! I speak of myself specifically, and others only generally.

118:1.2 (1295.2) The personality of the mortal creature may eternalize by self-identification with the indwelling spirit through the technique of choosing to do the will of the Father. Such a consecration of will is tantamount to the realization of eternity-reality of purpose. This means that the purpose of the creature has become fixed with regard to the succession of moments; stated otherwise, that the succession of moments will witness no change in creature purpose. A million or a billion moments makes no difference. Number has ceased to have meaning with regard to the creature’s purpose. Thus does creature choice plus God’s choice eventuate in the eternal realities of the never-ending union of the spirit of God and the nature of man in the everlasting service of the children of God and of their Paradise Father.

118:1.3 (1295.3) There is a direct relationship between maturity and the unit of time consciousness in any given intellect. The time unit may be a day, a year, or a longer period, but inevitably it is the criterion by which the conscious self evaluates the circumstances of life, and by which the conceiving intellect measures and evaluates the facts of temporal existence.

118:1.4 (1295.4) Experience, wisdom, and judgment are the concomitants of the lengthening of the time unit in mortal experience. As the human mind reckons backward into the past, it is evaluating past experience for the purpose of bringing it to bear on a present situation. As mind reaches out into the future, it is attempting to evaluate the future significance of possible action. And having thus reckoned with both experience and wisdom, the human will exercises judgment-decision in the present, and the plan of action thus born of the past and the future becomes existent.

118:1.5 (1295.5) In the maturity of the developing self, the past and future are brought together to illuminate the true meaning of the present. As the self matures, it reaches further and further back into the past for experience, while its wisdom forecasts seek to penetrate deeper and deeper into the unknown future. And as the conceiving self extends this reach ever further into both past and future, so does judgment become less and less dependent on the momentary present. In this way does decision-action begin to escape from the fetters of the moving present, while it begins to take on the aspects of past-future significance.

118:1.6 (1295.6) Patience is exercised by those mortals whose time units are short; true maturity transcends patience by a forbearance born of real understanding.

118:1.7 (1295.7) To become mature is to live more intensely in the present, at the same time escaping from the limitations of the present. The plans of maturity, founded on past experience, are coming into being in the present in such manner as to enhance the values of the future.

118:1.8 (1295.8) The time unit of immaturity concentrates meaning-value into the present moment in such a way as to divorce the present of its true relationship to the not-present—the past-future. The time unit of maturity is proportioned so to reveal the co-ordinate relationship of past-present-future that the self begins to gain insight into the wholeness of events, begins to view the landscape of time from the panoramic perspective of broadened horizons, begins perhaps to suspect the nonbeginning, nonending eternal continuum, the fragments of which are called time.


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There is great progress to be considered in the 20th and 21st centuries. In some ways the inhumanity and indifference of capitalism is being exposed and the suffering it creates and those who perpetuate that suffering are being revealed in ways that will deliver objection, activism, and change.


I do appreciate this perspective, and find it hopeful. So much is being brought to light.

Yes, it is challenging to step aside and refuse to get caught up in the angst of the moment. Nevertheless, I do think we can remain active in the sense that we work with others and organize with our fellows to work for change in the world - even if just in our own communities.

Getting out the Vote in November is just one such worthy effort into which to put one's energy.

Thanks...


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maryjo606 wrote:
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I appreciate the frustrations expressed here. We are taught to be patient in our activism and have faith in inevitable planetary destiny by the evolutionary forces of personal spiritization and experiential wisdom. This will take some time. In the meantime choices matter...let us make better ones!


I appreciate peoples' frustrations, too. I feel them greatly in these turbulent times.

I think it's high time to examine and re-examine the dangers of capitalism. What we are seeing in our world - and it seems to be world-wide - is an ugly underside to capitalism. And I believe the problem lies in the inability or unwillingness of the very rich and powwrful to be able to empathize with their fellows. There's a hardness and cruelty that bothers me...or am I imagining that?

There has to be a limit somehow placed on the accumulation of wealth - at least a movement to demand an equitable taxation of that wealth to benefit society in general. The president of the US - on national TV - declares himself "smart" for evading taxes. This kind of leadership seems to me to be very dangerous and retrograde. Meanwhile the middle class is shrinking and the income gap widens. Soon there will be only two classes - the rich and the poor.

Good section about capitalsim here:

https://truthbook.com/urantia-book/paper-69-primitive-human-institutions?criteria=capitalism#U69_5_1

Quote:
69:5.15 Though capital has tended to liberate man, it has greatly complicated his social and industrial organization. The abuse of capital by unfair capitalists does not destroy the fact that it is the basis of modern industrial society. Through capital and invention the present generation enjoys a higher degree of freedom than any that ever preceded it on earth. This is placed on record as a fact and not in justification of the many misuses of capital by thoughtless and selfish custodians.



The UB says:

160:4.10 (1779.2) It requires intelligence to secure one’s share of the desirable things of life. It is wholly erroneous to suppose that faithfulness in doing one’s daily work will insure the rewards of wealth. Barring the occasional and accidental acquirement of wealth, the material rewards of the temporal life are found to flow in certain well-organized channels, and only those who have access to these channels may expect to be well rewarded for their temporal efforts.

These well-organized channels are getting narrower and narrower, as when our arteries become clogged and blood doesn't flow as easily, when wealth is hoarded by those at the top the body politic becomes sick and the common good is forgotten. That's pretty much the direction the US has gone in since the 1980s. The pay gap between the lowest paid worker in a large corporation and the CEO has gotten exponentially larger over the decades. It the 50s the gap was around 7 to 1, now it's somewhere around 400:1. It's obvious "trickle-down" economics is a complete failure.

Jesus said it's not money but the love of money and what the love of money does to people which is evil. I agree with Bernie Sanders on this one, there really shouldn't be billionaires, they have way too much power and control over our economy and our politics. America was founded on the principle of the separation of church and state, it seems that the new struggle is the separation of private wealth and the state. Corporate money is shaping our policies, corrupting our elections and creating poverty for larger numbers of Americans. The pandemic has exposed the rot that infests our economic system. About 4 weeks ago my wife and I discovered a woman sleeping in her car across the street from our house. She is an educated musician, sings in choirs, teaches piano and is obviously a cultured person. We help her and give her money and supplies, but she is basically homeless. After California lifts the restrictions on evictions, there's going to be many more people who've lost their jobs (over 30 million Americans have filed for unemployment since the virus struck) so that means many more people are going to become homeless. This could have been prevented but our wisdom is lagging far behind our intelligence and our sense of fair play is lagging far behind our unenlightened self-interest.


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xobeht wrote:

Okay, Please be patient with me as I try to explain a complex situation.

My term "Religious right leaning citizens" refers primarily to the Republican base. Those who would call themselves "Christian" in today's America. The very same people who will attempt to re-elect our current president. The very same people you list in the sentence directly above this sentence, those who are anti-abortion, etc. They are primarily institutionally religious--for lack of a better term. Although you may disagree that these people are NOT the scaffolding upon which the new brotherhood/sisterhood will be built. I cannot agree with you on that issue because of my interpretation of the quotes below (I believe that it is these people--however flawed--who are preserving Christianity in today's times against the onslaught of materialism/atheism/secularism) and because of this preparation are paving the way for the real Jesus...aka the coming brotherhood/sisterhood of humankind.


195:4.4 (2075.2) Christianity exhibits a history of having originated out of the unintended transformation of the religion of Jesus into a religion about Jesus. It further presents the history of having experienced Hellenization, paganization, secularization, institutionalization, intellectual deterioration, spiritual decadence, moral hibernation, threatened extinction, later rejuvenation, fragmentation, and more recent relative rehabilitation. Such a pedigree is indicative of inherent vitality and the possession of vast recuperative resources. And this same Christianity is now present in the civilized world of Occidental peoples and stands face to face with a struggle for existence which is even more ominous than those eventful crises which have characterized its past battles for dominance.


195:3.9 (2074.4) Even a good religion could not save a great empire from the sure results of lack of individual participation in the affairs of government, from overmuch paternalism, overtaxation and gross collection abuses, unbalanced trade with the Levant which drained away the gold, amusement madness, Roman standardization, the degradation of woman, slavery and race decadence, physical plagues, and a state church which became institutionalized nearly to the point of spiritual barrenness.


In the last sentence of 195:4.4 the UB states (and I agree) that "Christianity" is facing its greatest struggle for survival today then ever before...which the Religious right/Republican base--whatever label we give it--is preserving!!

In 195:3.9 the Republican base is opposed to the following from this paragraph: overmuch paternalism, overtaxation and gross collection abuses, unbalanced trade, amusement madness, spiritual barrenness. the Democratic base is opposed to the following from this paragraph: standardization, the degradation of woman, slavery and race decadence, a state church.



Yet regardless of all our woes and worries and faults and shortcomings, I am not too disturbed by our problems because we will eventually find our way out of them. I remind myself to think like the quote below:

195:5.13 (2076.4) When there is so much good truth to publish and proclaim, why should men dwell so much upon the evil in the world just because it appears to be a fact? The beauties of the spiritual values of truth are more pleasurable and uplifting than is the phenomenon of evil.




I hope that helps answer your question.

Paul


uhm but you didn't post what the papers say the challenge confronting modern (1930's) christianity is...it's not the list of those faced during the roman empire that you posted nor your questionable sortings. papers say it's this:

Quote:
195:4.5 (2075.3) Religion is now confronted by the challenge of a new age of scientific minds and materialistic tendencies. In this gigantic struggle between the secular and the spiritual, the religion of Jesus will eventually triumph.


and the bit elsewhere about most modern christians being unwitting secular humanists is paramount too imo. sorry, but i don't think either extreme of christian church out there is immune to becoming just another social institution...but i know which extreme shows weak signs of the Masters Life in the cocoon, and its highly unlikely to be the evangelical right lol.

dont forget the papers say that when a church becomes involved in politics it ceases to be a church


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Makalu wrote: Thank you for your input btw!!

uhm but you didn't post what the papers say the challenge confronting modern (1930's) christianity is...it's not the list of those faced during the roman empire that you posted nor your questionable sortings. papers say it's this:


195:4.5 (2075.3) Religion is now confronted by the challenge of a new age of scientific minds and materialistic tendencies. In this gigantic struggle between the secular and the spiritual, the religion of Jesus will eventually triumph.


and the bit elsewhere about most modern christians being unwitting secular humanists is paramount too imo. sorry, but i don't think either extreme of christian church out there is immune to becoming just another social institution...but i know which extreme shows weak signs of the Masters Life in the cocoon, and its highly unlikely to be the evangelical right lol.

dont forget the papers say that when a church becomes involved in politics it ceases to be a church



Hmmm, I supposed I should have included that quote, thanks.
With my questionable sortings I was making a different point tho.


Okay, I suppose one cannot argue that the evangelical right will stick to their guns and stay entrenched in the dogma. I was mostly referring to a movement I see (on YouTube and elsewhere) where Christians are evolving their belief systems, some ministers are actually giving up on the atonement doctrine! Churches are coming to grips with the fact that they are loosing the youth. Young college educated adults are not flocking to church in great numbers and there seems to be a few young people on the internet posting videos that question whether we "got Jesus right" or not etc. This modern world with all its faults is questioning everything. We are taking a hard look at all aspects of life; economies, policies, discoveries, religions, cultures, social change and such.
And I think this phenomenon is gearing Christianity up for some real change for the better.

I do agree that modern church is a business in some respects more so than a movement or a religion and that will take some time to change, we will have to evolve out of that one.
I attempt to learn from listening to different sides of a viewpoint and I suppose some of my posts might seem confusing and contradictory, oh well. I don't think either that I am all that gifted when it comes to the art of articulation.

Paul


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