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Suicidal maniacs have little interest in religion. They are iniquitous criminal incorrigible serial murderers who use Jihad as an excuse for their obsession to kill. Islamic martyrdom isn't why they do these things. It's not Islam that motivates them, they have decided to kill for other reasons first, and then use Islam as a means to that end.

True religious motivation (love) never has a place for suicide. These monsters have rejected life and God and chose death instead. And in that process they want to take revenge on as many as possible, so on their way out they kill as many as possible. There's no difference between the Jihadist Paris killers and the American Columbine type of suicide murderers. Ideology doesn't drive them, pure hate does. The hatred of living. We can't wage war against them because although they sometimes find each other and work in groups, it's a phenomenon born in the individual. They however, are waging war on society, us.


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nodAmanaV wrote:
Suicidal maniacs have little interest in religion. They are iniquitous criminal incorrigible serial murderers who use Jihad as an excuse for their obsession to kill. Islamic martyrdom isn't why they do these things. It's not Islam that motivates them, they have decided to kill for other reasons first, and then use Islam as a means to that end.

True religious motivation (love) never has a place for suicide. These monsters have rejected life and God and chose death instead. And in that process they want to take revenge on as many as possible, so on their way out they kill as many as possible. There's no difference between the Jihadist Paris killers and the American Columbine type of suicide murderers. Ideology doesn't drive them, pure hate does. The hatred of living. We can't wage war against them because although they sometimes find each other and work in groups, it's a phenomenon born in the individual. They however, are waging war on society, us.

Granted what you say is true to a point but as has been mentioned in the news and by US authorities, that there are many local individuals who are being manipulated through brainwashing recruitment websites. This incident in France is not isolated to France alone and can just as easily be found here in the US where time will tell, and hopefully those in authority will be able to continue with a watchful eye? Nevertheless, the Urantia Book could be interpreted by some to invite a premature up-step from this world to a mansion world level through similar thinking but that is assuming that those readers of the UB can be considered as having normal minds and not being influenced by self proclaimed UB gurus who may also have been influenced by other motives. Where in Islamic extreme propaganda these so called martyrs believe their final destination is "paradise", not to mention what might await them there.
But, assuming that we can take the UB at its word, where might these "suicidal maniacs" souls end up? would that end up on a mansion world? And, if so, being that they have blown themselves up, or on this world been mutilated and dead, would they end up on a mansion world where they left off here, or might they have, just prior to death, transformed into something or somewhere else?

Would these questions have an answer in the Urantia Book? Interesting thoughts; and then there are those souls who they killed, as well; the same questions apply?


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In a lot of UB reader circles there is belief that commiting suicide removes a person from the possibility of further life all together. I think the rationale is that the person has decided then and there to NOT follow the ascension plan.


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Greetings,

Riktare wrote:
In a lot of UB reader circles there is belief that commiting suicide removes a person from the possibility of further life all together. I think the rationale is that the person has decided then and there to NOT follow the ascension plan.


I don't subscribe to this line of thinking, particularly when it comes to religious fanaticism. Suicide is actually proof of a moral conscience; a misguided and likely misinformed conscience, but a conscience nonetheless. God does not hold our ignorance against us. Suicide is a symptom of a lack of capacity to recognize true values. Such a lack may have many causes, the blame for which cannot always be assigned to rejection of survival.

Humans are generally weak and easily led astray by strange 'isms, powerful personalities and herd mentality. Suicide bombers, whether they be jihadists or kamikaze, are wholeheartedly committed to their faith and their god, a sign of a moral conscience - misguided or otherwise.

Animals make no inquiry into the purposes of life; therefore they never worry, neither do they commit suicide. Suicide among men testifies that such beings have emerged from the purely animal stage of existence, and to the further fact that the exploratory efforts of such human beings have failed to attain the artistic levels of mortal experience. Animals know not the meaning of life; man not only possesses capacity for the recognition of values and the comprehension of meanings, but he also is conscious of the meaning of meanings — he is self-conscious of insight. 160:1:5

I also cannot endorse this line of thinking:
nodAmanaV wrote:
Suicidal maniacs have little interest in religion.


Quite the contrary. Suicide in some religions is a form of self-sacrifice - an unbearably unfortunate misunderstanding of truth. Max Müller once wrote:
Quote:
However imperfect, however childish a religion may be, it always places the human soul in the presence of God; and however imperfect and however childish the conception of God may be, it always represents the highest ideal of perfection which the human soul, for the time being, can reach and grasp. Introduction to the Science of Religion, F. Max Müller, pg 192


Self-sacrifice is an imperfect and childish concept of reality; it has its roots in ancient religions, once considered a ritual form of purity. Some religions have not evolved much beyond this concept. The question is: do we destroy these religions or up-step them?

Ancient man only attained consciousness of favor with God through sacrifice. Modern man must develop new techniques of achieving the self-consciousness of salvation. The consciousness of sin persists in the mortal mind, but the thought patterns of salvation therefrom have become outworn and antiquated. The reality of the spiritual need persists, but intellectual progress has destroyed the olden ways of securing peace and consolation for mind and soul. 89:10:1

Martyrdom worked for Christians temporarily; martyrdom is working for Muslims, also temporarily. Not until martyrdom relinquishes its glory will we see an end to such silliness. In my opinion, the secret to such success lies with the liberation (up-stepping) of Muslim women. Women are the moral standard bearers of their people. Only when they finally refuse to surrender their babies to martyrdom, will it all end.

Woman, however, has always been the moral standard-bearer and the spiritual leader of mankind. The hand that rocks the cradle still fraternizes with destiny. 84:6:4

Rexford


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Very insightful post, Rexford. Thank you.


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Rexford, very interesting and insightful post.

Rexford wrote:
Quite the contrary. Suicide in some religions is a form of self-sacrifice - an unbearably unfortunate misunderstanding of truth. Max Müller once wrote:
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However imperfect, however childish a religion may be, it always places the human soul in the presence of God; and however imperfect and however childish the conception of God may be, it always represents the highest ideal of perfection which the human soul, for the time being, can reach and grasp. Introduction to the Science of Religion, F. Max Müller, pg 192

I am familiar with Max's works and also, interesting that you choose one of his quotes, in that he is a relative who stems from my grandmothers side of the family, where she and my father had inherited many aptitudes. Not to mention that Max was quite well versed in Sanskrit studies. My father has a remarkable resemblance to him as well.


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Hi Rexford,

Rexford wrote:
I don't subscribe to this line of thinking, particularly when it comes to religious fanaticism. Suicide is actually proof of a moral conscience; a misguided and likely misinformed conscience, but a conscience nonetheless. God does not hold our ignorance against us. Suicide is a symptom of a lack of capacity to recognize true values. Such a lack may have many causes, the blame for which cannot always be assigned to rejection of survival.


I agree that the tendency towards suicide may indicate moral conscience, but far more likely it indicates that the imagination of a person is active in thinking that somewhere else or nowhere else (which can actually be aggrandized by the human mind) is a better place to be than the here and now. And that some other plan for existence is better than the one one has here and now.

Judas's suicide, for example is one where moral conscience no doubt played a huge part. But that moral conscience was a recognition that he had failed to live according to the will of god. Rather than having the strength to translate that realization to an impetus to search harder for an understanding of god's will and way, he simply gave up. Did you believe that god will give him further life credits after he has expended all of the enormous credit he had already been given?

Ignorance isn't a factor in judging the suitability of a person for eternal life, I would have to imagine. Sincere impetus, drive, receptivity and wish to do the will of god is - the willingness to, however gradually one must do so, be perfect even as our Father in Heaven.


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74:7.20 (836.9) The moral law of Eden was little different from the seven commandments of Dalamatia. But the Adamites taught many additional reasons for these commands; for instance, regarding the injunction against murder, the indwelling of the Thought Adjuster was presented as an additional reason for not destroying human life. They taught that “whoso sheds man’s blood by man shall his blood be shed, for in the image of God made he man.”

This applies to suicide also. That when you kill yourself, you are killing the God who indwells you. These acts of murder and suicide are the apex, the human absolute of utter and maximized confusion, at least.


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Greetings,

My response concerning suicide was to the suggestion that Muslim suicide bombers have made a decision against pursuing the ascension career. I think it is quite the opposite. Islam teaches that such deeds deserve great rewards in heaven. Martyrdom, it is believed, is a deed that pleases God. Islam is a religion centered on doing deeds in this life that please God, in order to reap rewards in the next life. It is totally erroneous, yet I'm confident that God, a loving Father, would never annihilate a personality who is desperately trying to please him, regardless of how ill-advised.

We are all given enough mercy credits to assure survival. One must knowingly spurn each and every one of them to face extinction. Conversely, suicidal jihadists are wholeheartedly embracing what they believe to be their heavenly inheritance. They are not spurning survival at all; but rather are committed to enlarging what they believe to be God's kingdom, both here on earth and in the next life. When someone is so enthusiastically devoted to a belief, fallacious or otherwise, there is no stopping such an evangel.

The problem with this form of Islam is that it is an animating and invigorating religion only in battle. Once the battle is over, there is nothing to sustain the soul except more battle. Jihad is a form of soul food for its adherents. I see no way of stopping such a cancer except to starve it. Perhaps what I've written here is verboten; if so I will delete it. But it is my heartfelt opinion on the matter.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Rex,

I understand your point. I agree with all you are saying except in this regard. These murderers and those who kill via suicide may be doing God's will as they interpret it but that doesn't mean that it is. Not to mention, and especially in light of the functioning of the Spirit of Truth, it goes to everything in human decency that killing, is wrong.

Here's my point, if the average devotee of Islam does not involve themselves with killing for what purportedly their religion demands, then the excuse of an extremist position to kill has no bearing in truth. That's why an average Muslim disdains Jihad. I want to emphasize this: These types who commit mass murder are first criminals, haters of the obligation to behave civilly, deniers of the duty to love, etc. They only love to hate. Islamic identity is a byway. It is a convenient existential that they use to further their obsession to be evil. There's no difference between them and Adam Lanza, the Connecticut kindergarten killer.

Why these people hate is an entirely different subject.


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Greetings nod,

You wrote:
nodAmanaV wrote:
I agree with all you are saying except in this regard. These murderers and those who kill via suicide may be doing God's will as they interpret it but that doesn't mean that it is. Not to mention, and especially in light of the functioning of the Spirit of Truth, it goes to everything in human decency that killing, is wrong.


I'm sorry. Did I say anywhere, or at anytime, that a suicide bomber's interpretation of God's will is correct? I think I made it quite clear that such beliefs are erroneous and fallacious. What I did say is that God will unlikely exterminate a person because of erroneous and fallacious beliefs.

Extremists hate anything that does not conform to their belief structure, and that is because their belief structure is built with cardboard upon shaky ground. The only way to keep it standing is with violent fervor. Without the violence the entire structure collapses in on itself. There is a mighty mythos that comes from fighting for the "one god" even if that god is merely a mirage.

Take a closer look at what happened in Afghanistan with the Taliban. Civilization regressed a few thousand years under their control. Once they won the fight, there was nothing left to their belief structure except a putrid scum which they held onto for dear life with even greater violence, forced to feed upon themselves, brother killing brother. It's not so much a hatred as it is a sickness caused by an empty belief structure. Yet something good eventually arose from this stagnation. God works his wonders even in the wretched carcass of a failing civilization.

There is no doubt in my mind that Malala Yousafzai is worth a great deal of attention by the civilized world. She represents hope for the future. The education and liberation of Muslim women can surely fill the unholy chasm created by the cancer of an aggressive religion fueled by blood sacrifice. Such defiance against immorality deserves everyone's attention!

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Thanks Rex,

I guess I can't wrap my brain around these crazies killing, then suicide, and it not be an act that equals total insanity with out the possibility of salvation. But I thank God that I am not responsible to make that call. And I don't waste any time judging these poor souls. But I am interested in helping where I can to create a situation where people who are inclined towards these acts are stopped. Not so much with forceful imprisonment but with providing them with relief from the burden of participation with madness for whatever reason.

You touch on what I believe is really driving this whole thing, women. The control and enslavement of women. They look to modern western society as a threat. Their loss of control over their women is at the heart of the problem.


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Yes Rexford. I spontaneous thought of Malala as one example of a woman who is today's moral standard-bearer too.

The reason why I think the suicide bombers have fully destroyed any possibility of life for themselves is that their religious inclinations, as intense as they may be, are essentially phenomena of the mind and emotions - the lower mind that is (and adjutants). Most or all of their energy is directed into an enormous ego element. It seems clear that they are really desperately trying to please themselves. They do not heed the Spirit of Truth which admonishes us all to minimize and control our tendencies toward self-assertion. Neither do they listen to the voice of the Adjuster.

Quote:
108:5.9 When it comes to the sharp and well-defined conflicts between the higher and lower tendencies of the races, between what really is right or wrong (not merely what you may call right and wrong), you can depend upon it that the Adjuster will always participate in some definite and active manner in such experiences.


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nodAmanaV: I agree regarding the control of women. The thought of actually having to compete for women probably scares the willies out of them. :)


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Excellent discussion by all....and thanks Rexford for your illuminations. I agree with women's rights and equality being the global game changer most needed now for social/cultural progress from here. I also agree that I'm glad I'm not the one who decides worthiness of survival. Survival is not assurance of ascension from the mansion worlds and I've always wondered what happens to those whose mercy credits allow the awakening but arrive with so little soul content with which to progress by, with, and from. I also do not think the material animal mind on a planet like our own, blanketed in fears and ignorance, can actually achieve self erasure and elimination. Perplexing. I truly doubt Hitler and Stalin will be denied that final, cognitive choice to come, but I do doubt they will show up with much to propel them into ascension.

I also wonder about the fact that faith trumps belief and knowledge as we know, but does it in these twisted and tormented minds. Do these suicide bombers have what is described as "faith" in Father? Perplexing indeed. Or is religion simply a cloak to disguise the dagger? For their targets and victims are far more often Muslims than any/all others. Is this a holy war between factions? Or has that war between Sunni and Shiite been hijacked by haters who truly have no faith and no motive or agenda except chaos and mayhem and murder?

This may sound callous and I assure you I weep for such victims - whether in Africa, the Middle East, here, Europe, and also for all refugees of calamity in all its forms - but I have been thrilled by the growing global response to all disasters the past few decades. We are still clumsy and ineffective in many ways but truly our world responds as a world now that we have the digital network....often with great examples of the best of humanity gloriously displayed by groups, individuals, and even the victims themselves - Malala being one such example of overcoming tragedy with grace and courage and as inspiration to an entire planet!

I see what's going on as analogous to an immune response to a virus - a virus of hate which will be overwhelmed and destroyed by the auto immune response of love and kindness and generosity....and forgiveness. These haters are self identifying themselves to the rest of us via social media which maintains the footprints and tracks of these twisted and vile ones back to their lairs and into their hunting fields. They cannot hide forever...not anymore....and they foolishly raise their hands and voices in ways which will lead to their crushing demise. Now that they kill Muslims in the Mideast by wholesale slaughter, where will they go to hide? Who will support such a suicidal ending that is now inevitable?

Thanks everyone.

Brad :cry:


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