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quil wrote:
Ricktare,

You just conceded that ANNs are simulations of conceptual (mathematical) models. A model does not need to reflect any observed reality to be a model. I could construct a model of how flanigans doodlepop lightning bugs, run a simulation, and derive whatever meaning I want from it. The point is that no simulation can be had without the act of mind formulating its parameters and cementing what the things and relationships are in the simulation, i.e. building its model.

So the idea of life being a simulation would point to God being the mind building the model and running the simulation. But as Bart pointed out, since God is part of our simulation, He too would have to be simulated, leading to a contradiction.


Hi quil,

I didn't concede that ANN's are "simulations of conceptual (mathematical) models" :)

I guess you have to really understand how ANN's are constructed to know that. They are mathematical entities, but not models in any way. That's what makes them special and useful. The very most important point is that they have no pre-conceived idea or model of either the problem domain or the solution domain. In a sense they're completely brainless :) They're input-to-output mapping machines.

It's interesting that you point out "God being the mind building the model and running the simulation". I don't fully disagree with that. But... That goes counter current to the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is to get as far as possible from God, as a starting point, isn't it? And then let everything start rolling from there, keeping at all times the state of play the furthest possible from God while striving to discover him and grow towards a fuller manifestation of his attributes in the universe. In other words, God has divested himself of anything in the game that any other being could possibly accomplish. He's stepped as far from forming any kind of model in advance because he doesn't want to spoil the game. When the game has fully played out, all of us will discover God himself was the model.


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Hi Riktare,

If "God is the mind building the model and running the simulation", then how is he simulating himself? God is not separate from his creation. An ANN is an algorithm implemented and subsequently run (simulated) on a programmable computer. Its (static) computer program, designed by the mind of the programmer, is ultimately its exact model. Here the designer and the computer simulation are completely separate entities. God is not the designer of a simulation of life, he is life. In him we all live and move and have our being ..

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1:5.16 It is literally true: “In all your afflictions he is afflicted.” “In all your triumphs he triumphs in and with you.” His prepersonal divine spirit is a real part of you. The Isle of Paradise responds to all the physical metamorphoses of the universe of universes; the Eternal Son includes all the spirit impulses of all creation; the Conjoint Actor encompasses all the mind expression of the expanding cosmos. The Universal Father realizes in the fullness of the divine consciousness all the individual experience of the progressive struggles of the expanding minds and the ascending spirits of every entity, being, and personality of the whole evolutionary creation of time and space. And all this is literally true, for “in him we all live and move and have our being.”


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Hello Riktare,

You wrote:
Riktare wrote:
That goes counter current to the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is to get as far as possible from God, as a starting point, isn't it? And then let everything start rolling from there, keeping at all times the state of play the furthest possible from God while striving to discover him and grow towards a fuller manifestation of his attributes in the universe. In other words, God has divested himself of anything in the game that any other being could possibly accomplish. He's stepped as far from forming any kind of model in advance because he doesn't want to spoil the game. When the game has fully played out, all of us will discover God himself was the model.


What game are you talking about? The state of play of the universe is to attempt to get closer to God, it's called the ascension career. Spirituality is an indicator of one's nearness to God (100:2:4), not a measure of distance away from God.

And where does personality fit into this game. God has a personality, computers don't. Life is a function of the Third Person of Deity. That's a person, not a computer program.

This sounds like the Matrix movie to me. Mind games are mental entertainment for the intellect. God is found in the soul, not the material intellect. He actually lives there, not far away in the cosmic computer lab.

Is the soul a computer simulation too? I don't think so. It's a reality not a simulation. Reality!

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Hi Rexford,

I believe the revelators call it "The Game of the Ages". Yes, the Ascension Career is part of that, but only a part. Maybe really only a small part since the revelators hint at other things but admit to not being able to reveal them. And presumably there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished.

I'm considering the Game of the Ages from the perspective of the creator, at least what I imagine that is based on what is revealed to us especially in the papers on The Supreme and Trinity of Trinities. I've heard the analogy and think it has merit that God so long ago threw a ball as far from himself as was possible and is waiting as the universe evolves and grows for the ball to eventually return. Alternatively, that in starting the eternal adventure, he had fragmented himself into an immense amount of pieces, each very limited in their scope in time and space, and is now watching and experiencing them coalesce together again where as a whole they become him again.

The analogy of life being like a computer simulation is of course not meant to be taken to extremes and neither meant to be taken so seriously really. But it can be very instructive and get us to look at things we wouldn't otherwise consider. It's a serviceble mental tool that allows for creative thought in understanding or analyzing different parts of of the emergence of the Supreme Being and our participation. It has potential mathematical aspects that might possibly approach morontial mota.

I don't believe there is a need to be too mundane or limiting about imagining what a computer can possibly be. It's parameters could incorporate personality. Or personality could be the data buses on which information flows. What would you imagine a computer would consist of on Edentia for example? Is the mind of a super being or demi-god like a computer when he or she is contemplating the results of certain actions? Can karma and repercussional sythesis be likened to something that happens in a super magnificent computer program?

Bart, you'll have to ask quil for an explanation of the statement I quoted. My own conception of the unfolding of The Supreme is probably a bit different.


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Greetings Riktare,

You wrote:
Riktare wrote:
And presumably there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished.


I'm not sure I can agree with that. The next age includes the organization of future universes in outer space. Creatures from there will still require an approach to Deity, an ascension. They call it the transcendent and absonite approach in the Foreword. There will be (and already is) material creations in outer space which will be home to creatures in the next age. The purpose of creating those mortals is to evolve God the Ultimate, the God of transcended space and it will require an ascension plan (see 56:7:8 below).

The central universe is the creation of eternity; the seven superuniverses are the creations of time; the four outer space levels are undoubtedly destined to eventuate-evolve the ultimacy of creation. 12:1:16

We do know, however, that in the universes of time and space, God the Sevenfold provides a progressive approach to the Universal Father, and that this evolutionary approach is experientially unified in God the Supreme. We might conjecture that such a plan must prevail in the outer universes; on the other hand, the new orders of beings that may sometime inhabit these universes may be able to approach Deity on ultimate levels and by absonite techniques. In short, we have not the slightest concept of what technique of deity approach may become operative in the future universes of outer space. 56:7:8

In the next age such mortals will also need to find God. As finaliters, children of the Supreme, we mortals of this current age will serve those individuals in the next age (13:2:1, 31:0:8, 31:10:10, 31:10:19, 55:4:19, 56:8:2, 112:7:17-18, 188:3:8). We are also told that Son and Spirit-fused individuals will be maintaining the seven superuniverses settled in light and life and welcoming pilgrims from outer space. That is a clear description of an ascension plan to me.

What the ultimate destiny of these stationary orders of local and of superuniverse citizenship will be we do not know, but it is quite possible that, when the Paradise finaliters are pioneering the expanding frontiers of divinity in the planetary systems of the first outer space level, their Son- and Spirit-fused brethren of the ascendant evolutionary struggle will be acceptably contributing to the maintenance of the experiential equilibrium of the perfected superuniverses while they stand ready to welcome the incoming stream of Paradise pilgrims who may, at that distant day, pour in through Orvonton and its sister creations as a vast spirit-questing torrent from these now uncharted and uninhabited galaxies of outer space. 40:10:8

There are Paradise satellites with entities of the Eternal Son who are created for ministry in outer space during the next age (13:3:2). What sort of spirit ministry do you suppose they would be offering? I suspect it would be ministry for ascending personalities of the next age from outer space.

Havona will unquestionably continue to function with absonite significance even in future universe ages which may witness space pilgrims attempting to find God on superfinite levels. Havona has capacity to serve as a training universe for absonite beings. It will probably be the finishing school when the seven superuniverses are functioning as the intermediate school for the graduates of the primary schools of outer space. 14:6:41

We also know that a Master Son reveals the Supreme in this current age. In the next age he, in coordination with the Supreme, will reveal the first experiential Trinity to creatures in outer space. (119:8:7)

Riktare wrote:
Alternatively, that in starting the eternal adventure, he had fragmented himself into an immense amount of pieces, each very limited in their scope in time and space, and is now watching and experiencing them coalesce together again where as a whole they become him again.


Well this can't be true. Fragments of God are unattenuated, undiluted, unqualified and unmixed. (107:1:2) Material creation is not a fragment of God, it is merely the handiwork of God accomplished through his Sons. And this handiwork is divided by incompletion, meaning imperfection.(4:2:4) God is perfect and we know creation is not perfect and won't be until emergence of the Supreme. And even then, there's more perfection to achieve.

Riktare wrote:
It's a serviceble mental tool that allows for creative thought in understanding or analyzing different parts of of the emergence of the Supreme Being and our participation. It has potential mathematical aspects that might possibly approach morontial mota.


This can't be true either. The emergence of the Supreme has to do with power-personality synthesis. Personality must be present. Personality is gifted by the Father and there is no evidence that he gifts computers with personality except in sci-fi productions.

And I don't think math will ever become mota either. Mota is a supermaterial reality sensitivity involving both reason and faith. Mathematics is a material science. Math may appear to be abstract to material mind, but it is an intellectual abstraction, even on the morontia level. Math does not require faith in Deity. Also, morontia mathematics is not synonymous with morontia mota. The former is a supermaterial science, the latter a supermaterial philosophy which marries science and religion.

Riktare wrote:
It's parameters could incorporate personality. Or personality could be the data buses on which information flows. What would you imagine a computer would consist of on Edentia for example? Is the mind of a super being or demi-god like a computer when he or she is contemplating the results of certain actions?


Now this is just silly, in my opinion, unless you're writing for Star Trek. Computers cannot have personality because they are not self-conscious (unless they're HAL). Nor do they have moral free will except in Hollywood. Can you imagine a computer with a Thought Adjuster??? Can you imagine a computer with spiritual insight and truth discernment? I can't.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Hi Rexford,

My gosh you're thinking statically... materially... literally... legalistically... Did I say earlier that the computer idea is essentially an analogy? It's not something that is sufficiently complete to explain and describe everything in the cosmos. :) It's not all that much fun and stimulating for me to be so dry this very moment. :) You took part in the thread about the mind making contact with the superconsciousness didn't you? Maybe it's time to reread that and consider what it means for the mind to be bound versus being creative?

I'd contend that any intelligent and capable being can make a computer out of any substance: mind, material, morontia, biologic entities, probably even spirit so long as what the computer consists of can in some way be controlled or partially controlled by him or her. An abicus is a computer as is a slide rule as is a monkey's brain wired to an electrical interface unit. Your CD player or video machine is a computer that creates sound and images that can induce your mind to live experiences that feel nothing like computer programs.

Maybe your perception of mathematics is a bit dry too. :) Strangely enough I often feel that my use of mathematics is most real and useful during sleep hours where consciousness gives way to either subconsciousness or superconsciousness. There it has nothing to do with material science. :)


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Greetings Riktare,

What does your last post have to do with your assertion that, "-there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished"?

That statement is not consistent with the Papers. I pointed that out and offered supporting evidence with great care and many, many quotes. Why do you ignore that?

Nevertheless, no matter how you look at it, subconsciously or superconsciously, the contemplation of mathematics will never help you discover the personality of the Father. Perhaps you might use your creative imagination to dream up a Master Mathematician as the Papers suggest? (195:6:8)

Math is an idea, not an ideal, and it doesn't matter which way, from here to there, that you imagine it, mathematical ideas can only reveal the idea of God; they can never reveal the character of the divine Father, which is an ideal. (169:4:7)

We are told that ideas originate from stimuli discovered in the external world, the world of science, the world of math. Ideals, on the other hand, are born in the creative realms of the inner world (111:4:10). Ideals involve Deity and mathematics is not a Deity. One cannot make a supplication to a mathematical equation. Our Adjusters constantly urge us toward divine ideals (108:4:2) and mathematics is not a divine ideal, because mathematics does not have a divine personality, and neither do computers.

You cannot pray to a chemical formula, supplicate a mathematical equation, worship a hypothesis, confide in a postulate, commune with a process, serve an abstraction, or hold loving fellowship with a law. 102:7:3

Do you think that a computer can simulate the Divine Personality of God? Do you think that a computer can simulate Jesus?

In Total Disbelief,
Rexford


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Let me tell a joke now. This Urantia book reader is visiting a Buddhist monastery in Tibet. He enters the monastery's dining room and sees a bowl of pea soup that's been sitting on the table untouched for a few minutes. He's hungry after having traveled for many hours so he asks a nearby monk: "Are you going to eat that soup?" The monk replies: "No, go ahead and eat it yourself".

The Urantia book reader sits down and eagerly devours the soup. But on spooning up the last bit near the bottom he screams: "There's a dead mouse in the soup!" and upchucks the entire amount of soup back into the bowl.

"Yeah" said the monk. "That's about as far as I got too".


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Hello Riktare,

Sounds like you don't like the Urantia Papers. They make you puke? Why are you here then, surrounded by Urantia Paper People and quotes flying left and right? You must be puking all the time. They have medication for that.

Sorry about your illness,
Rexford


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Hi Rexford,

You clearly don't know me and my extensive history as ardent student and enthusiast of this revelation. I won't make the mistake of severely misjudging and misunderstanding you and where you are coming from. Neither will I put words in your mouth.

I really don't understand your need to be so contentious. By all accounts the ascension career in the finite realms is complete at the end of the age. Sure something will occur afterwards that is comparable in the super finite realms. Do you think I don't know that? Or are you unsure of your own understanding but unwilling to express that? Or unwilling to invest in more than intellectual development or any type of creativity associated with integrating revelation into our lives?

I see no point in legalistic and irrelevant argumentation. As they say, employing misconceptions to create straw men serves no one. It doesn't suit my interests in a balanced and mutual development for everyone involved. Others may be interested in your line of thought of course and they may chime in. Above all one should be led by the spirit that helps us find and understand what is a good and profitable investment of our time and energy. And sometimes even allow it to motivate us to take chances; be inquisitive.


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Sorry Riktare,

If you already understand everything I said, then why did you say:

Quote:
"-there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished"


Clearly that is not true. Did you misspeak? If so, then you can certainly excuse my long explanation as to why it is not true.

I have no intention of being contentious at all. My only concern is the an accurate representation of what is given to us in the Papers. I think everything I said is well supported.

If you're just having fun playing mind games about computer simulation, then that is also fine. But I think new readers should know that your imaginings are not in line with the cosmology presented in the text. And that is all I'm trying to point out, mostly as a service to others. It has nothing at all to do with you personally.

If you take offense at that, I am sorry. But I am not sorry about anything I wrote. And as for your joke about the puking monk, maybe you can enlighten me about what makes it so funny, because I don't interpret it as humorous at all.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Rexford wrote:
Hello Riktare,
You wrote:
Riktare wrote:
That goes counter current to the purpose of the game. The purpose of the game is to get as far as possible from God, as a starting point, isn't it? And then let everything start rolling from there, keeping at all times the state of play the furthest possible from God while striving to discover him and grow towards a fuller manifestation of his attributes in the universe. In other words, God has divested himself of anything in the game that any other being could possibly accomplish. He's stepped as far from forming any kind of model in advance because he doesn't want to spoil the game. When the game has fully played out, all of us will discover God himself was the model.

What game are you talking about? The state of play of the universe is to attempt to get closer to God, it's called the ascension career. Spirituality is an indicator of one's nearness to God (100:2:4), not a measure of distance away from God.
[. . .]

"Rexford" it would seem that you were the one who first brought up "ascension career" and "Riktare" responded with the following:
Riktare wrote:
I believe the revelators call it "The Game of the Ages". Yes, the Ascension Career is part of that, but only a part. Maybe really only a small part since the revelators hint at other things but admit to not being able to reveal them. And presumably there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished.

Then you persist in removing the "And presumably" from the quote which you site and would, by your attitude towards a fellow forum member, attempt to provoke that member in anger to respond to your, in my opinion, predatory attempt to derail this topic, as to provoke a negative response towards you, which I believe "Riktare" has responded appropriately. Yet, it appears as if you are attempting to cause trouble.

Do you have anything positive to contribute to this topic regarding "computers" or "AI" technology? Where you have brought up the "Matrix" franchise in your comments which actually has a viable correlation to the UB text as it can be compared, even though there are technical areas in "Matrix" which can not be substantiated as viable.

Nevertheless, why are you attempting to derail this topic, and attempting to cause trouble? It definitely would not be something which you could have learned from the life of Jesus as presented in the UB. One might say that it could be anti-Jesus characterization as what one should not do unto others? Or, so I think?


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Greetings,

Riktare wrote:
The purpose of the game is to get as far as possible from God, as a starting point, isn't it? And then let everything start rolling from there, keeping at all times the state of play the furthest possible from God while striving to discover him and grow towards a fuller manifestation of his attributes in the universe.


But isn't the real state of play to get as close to God as possible? How can you discover God if you need to keep the state of play the furthest possible from him?

Why would God actually come to us, choose to live within us, if he wanted us to be as far away from him as possible?

The universe is full of different gravities, all pulling us toward Paradise, closer to God. If the state of play is to stay the farthest, why do all the different gravities function to derail the game?

This isn't making any sense to me at all. I still think the ascension career is all about moving inward and upward which would not fit into your game at all.

Furthermore, in regards to the statement below:

Riktare wrote:
Yes, the Ascension Career is part of that, but only a part. Maybe really only a small part since the revelators hint at other things but admit to not being able to reveal them. And presumably there will no longer be a need for the Ascension Career when this current age is finished.


Wasn't the denial of the need for an ascension plan part of the Lucifer Manifesto? I'm sorry, but whenever I see something like that my anti-truth antenna start to go berserk and I get an uncontrollable urge to squash the darn bug dead in its tracks. Sorry if you, others and PETA find that offensive.

In Friendship,
Rexford


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Caligastia wrote:
... Nevertheless, why are you attempting to derail this topic, and attempting to cause trouble? It definitely would not be something which you could have learned from the life of Jesus as presented in the UB. One might say that it could be anti-Jesus characterization as what one should not do unto others? Or, so I think?
Cal, I've reported your last post as completely unappropriate..


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Bart wrote:
Caligastia wrote:
... Nevertheless, why are you attempting to derail this topic, and attempting to cause trouble? It definitely would not be something which you could have learned from the life of Jesus as presented in the UB. One might say that it could be anti-Jesus characterization as what one should not do unto others? Or, so I think?
Cal, I've reported your last post as completely unappropriate..


To be criticized by one who calls himself the devil is too preposterous to bear without a belly busting laugh out loud!!!! Oh Cal, you devil you....perhaps this was an attempt at humor?? For it is indeed laughable.

Speaking of ridiculous, I presumed this entire topic was an intellectualization of abstractionism derived from the love of science fiction and sublime speculation and certainly not any serious consideration of reality?

I too have always loved both math and science fiction - the far future culture/social type like Heinlein for me rather than the western shoot out novels hiding in alien invasions, etc., but pure contemplation of a future based on the present and theoretical trajectory outcomes. Any way, my love of math (and I did not go so far but the practical stuff like geometry, algebra, trig) caused this farm boy to enjoy one of the best laugh out loud moments in my life when I first read this one quoted from the Master:

133:5.5 (1476.7) Logic is valid in the material world, and mathematics is reliable when limited in its application to physical things; but neither is to be regarded as wholly dependable or infallible when applied to life problems. Life embraces phenomena which are not wholly material. Arithmetic says that, if one man could shear a sheep in ten minutes, ten men could shear it in one minute. That is sound mathematics, but it is not true, for the ten men could not so do it; they would get in one another’s way so badly that the work would be greatly delayed.

Me: I think Rexford is correct in his assertion that quality and value plus meaning and transcendence and intuition are all jut a few of the distinctions which demonstrate the topic of speculation here is only an exercise in abstraction.

133:5.6 (1477.1) Mathematics asserts that, if one person stands for a certain unit of intellectual and moral value, ten persons would stand for ten times this value. But in dealing with human personality it would be nearer the truth to say that such a personality association is a sum equal to the square of the number of personalities concerned in the equation rather than the simple arithmetical sum. A social group of human beings in co-ordinated working harmony stands for a force far greater than the simple sum of its parts.

133:5.7 (1477.2) Quantity may be identified as a fact, thus becoming a scientific uniformity. Quality, being a matter of mind interpretation, represents an estimate of values, and must, therefore, remain an experience of the individual. When both science and religion become less dogmatic and more tolerant of criticism, philosophy will then begin to achieve unity in the intelligent comprehension of the universe.

8)


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