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WOW! :smile: This was amazing. The scientific community really came together, some to verify, and some finally to debunk this relic. It turns out that using the most extreme tests and computer techniques, there is no evidence of purposeful fraud. Indeed, the harder they looked, them more puzzling was the evidence. Ultimately, they admitted they had no clue of how the image was imprinted on the cloth. BUT, it fits well with the UB description of a virtual instantaneously sped up natural process. This could be an excellent opportunity, if only we knew how best suggest the UB narrative to Discovery, or the film makers, or even the researchers themselves. Introducing the UB via the scientific community seems the obvious and, natural path... :idea:

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Hi UB...earlier testing revealed and dated the shroud about 1260-1390AD...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shroud_of_ ... bon_dating

I didn't see the latest Discovery show but sure it will run again...

I found this interesting...what a beautiful lady...

http://www.life.com/image/first/in-gall ... newsletter

Aloha.

What get me especially around Easter is all the "History" shows on about the Life, Death and Resurrection of Jesus... :roll:

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Hi Dave and Tootsie :smile:

I just finished watching another doc on the shroud called, "The Real Face of Jesus" where a team constructs a lifelike face from the data on the shroud. I do not think this is the doc you are talking about. Did you just watch the doc where it shows the interview of the dying scientist who changes his mind before death?

Anyways, the Real Face of Jesus was amazing if you haven't seen it yet. It gives additional proof that it may be truly the shroud of Jesus which the other doc doesn't. For example, it introduces the fact that there is a blood-stained face cloth dating back to the early seventh century that is purportedly of Jesus. The amazing thing is that when you overly this face cloth with the shroud of Turin...the blood stains match up perfectly. Which would lead you to believe that the carbon testing was false.

In addition...they also talk about them finding this flower pollen on the cloth, and this particular species only grows in a 50mile radius from Jerusalem.

I'm astonished. I want the "real face of Jesus" framed and on my wall. It's spooky!

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That's the one I saw advertised...however the UB does talk about Jesus not being able to leave any evidence behind...that's why he use to draw in the sand...now I may be remembering this wrong...it's been a long time but seem to remember... :wink: and I haven't done a search...

It may well be a man of the times...but I don't believe it's Michael of Nebadon...

Aloha...

Don Paulson is my favorite artist...I love the one with Jesus and the lost lamb...

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Hi everyone, yes, that is the program I saw, the one where they did a 3D build up from data on the shroud. They explained the earlier dating error, caused by using a contaminated edge that was actually an area which had been repaired. They made a very interesting Biblical reference as well. Apparently the burial cloths were not disturbed. They were still lying where Jesus lay with a band of material that secured it to the body still tied! They body had simply "vanished". That squares well with the UB version. Seems to tie up the loose ends, don't you think?

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JUST A HOAX ?

REAL OR FAKE ?

IS IT JESUS OR SOMEONE ELSE ...

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/archive/ ... 46609.aspx

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'' it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb.''

Question ;
WHAT Was the reason for the Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb ?

I'M Guessing , thinkin , that it Was to make ALL ,
The Roman soldiers , the Jewish leaders and the women and male
apostles ... to be aware of Jesus body NOT any longer being in the tomb ,
sooner rather than later ?

... the evidence of his resurrection .

RIGHT ? .... NEED More Coffee ....

''Said the chief of the archangels: "We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time.''

... OR WAS IT Necessary for the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb so that
there Was access to the tomb for them to invoke the process of accelerated time.?

189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus' physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm. ''

OK , So it Was Necessary for the stones to be moved away
so our Master Jesus could Exit the Tomb in
His morontia Form ! ... Correct ?

2. THE MATERIAL BODY OF JESUS

189:2.1
At ten minutes past three o'clock, as the resurrected Jesus fraternized with the assembled morontia personalities from the seven mansion worlds of Satania, the chief of archangels—the angels of the resurrection—approached Gabriel and asked for the mortal body of Jesus. Said the chief of the archangels: "We may not participate in the morontia resurrection of the bestowal experience of Michael our sovereign, but we would have his mortal remains put in our custody for immediate dissolution. We do not propose to employ our technique of dematerialization; we merely wish to invoke the process of accelerated time. It is enough that we have seen the Sovereign live and die on Urantia; the hosts of heaven would be spared the memory of enduring the sight of the slow decay of the human form of the Creator and Upholder of a universe. In the name of the celestial intelligences of all Nebadon, I ask for a mandate giving me the custody of the mortal body of Jesus of Nazareth and empowering us to proceed with its immediate dissolution."

189:2.2And when Gabriel had conferred with the senior Most High of Edentia, the archangel spokesman for the celestial hosts was given permission to make such disposition of the physical remains of Jesus as he might determine.

189:2.3 After the chief of archangels had been granted this request, he summoned to his assistance many of his fellows, together with a numerous host of the representatives of all orders of celestial personalities, and then, with the aid of the Urantia midwayers, proceeded to take possession of Jesus' physical body. This body of death was a purely material creation; it was physical and literal; it could not be removed from the tomb as the morontia form of the resurrection had been able to escape the sealed sepulchre. By the aid of certain morontia auxiliary personalities, the morontia form can be made at one time as of the spirit so that it can become indifferent to ordinary matter, while at another time it can become discernible and contactable to material beings, such as the mortals of the realm.

189:2.4 As they made ready to remove the body of Jesus from the tomb preparatory to according it the dignified and reverent disposal of near-instantaneous dissolution, it was assigned the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb. The larger of these two stones was a huge circular affair, much like a millstone, and it moved in a groove chiseled out of the rock, so that it could be rolled back and forth to open or close the tomb. When the watching Jewish guards and the Roman soldiers, in the dim light of the morning, saw this huge stone begin to roll away from the entrance of the tomb, apparently of its own accord—without any visible means to account for such motion—they were seized with fear and panic, and they fled in haste from the scene. The Jews fled to their homes, afterward going back to report these doings to their captain at the temple. The Romans fled to the fortress of Antonia and reported what they had seen to the centurion as soon as he arrived on duty.

189:2.5 The Jewish leaders began the sordid business of supposedly getting rid of Jesus by offering bribes to the traitorous Judas, and now, when confronted with this embarrassing situation, instead of thinking of punishing the guards who deserted their post, they resorted to bribing these guards and the Roman soldiers. They paid each of these twenty men a sum of money and instructed them to say to all: "While we slept during the nighttime, his disciples came upon us and took away the body." And the Jewish leaders made solemn promises to the soldiers to defend them before Pilate in case it should ever come to the governor's knowledge that they had accepted a bribe.

189:2.6 The Christian belief in the resurrection of Jesus has been based on the fact of the "empty tomb." It was indeed a fact that the tomb was empty, but this is not the truth of the resurrection. The tomb was truly empty when the first believers arrived, and this fact, associated with that of the undoubted resurrection of the Master, led to the formulation of a belief which was not true: the teaching that the material and mortal body of Jesus was raised from the grave. Truth having to do with spiritual realities and eternal values cannot always be built up by a combination of apparent facts. Although individual facts may be materially true, it does not follow that the association of a group of facts must necessarily lead to truthful spiritual conclusions.

189:2.7 The tomb of Joseph was empty, not because the body of Jesus had been rehabilitated or resurrected, but because the celestial hosts had been granted their request to afford it a special and unique dissolution, a return of the "dust to dust," without the intervention of the delays of time and without the operation of the ordinary and visible processes of mortal decay and material corruption.

189:2.8 The mortal remains of Jesus underwent the same natural process of elemental disintegration as characterizes all human bodies on earth except that, in point of time, this natural mode of dissolution was greatly accelerated, hastened to that point where it became well-nigh instantaneous.

189:2.9 The true evidences of the resurrection of Michael are spiritual in nature, albeit this teaching is corroborated by the testimony of many mortals of the realm who met, recognized, and communed with the resurrected morontia Master. He became a part of the personal experience of almost one thousand human beings before he finally took leave of Urantia.


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coop wrote:

Question ;
WHAT Was the reason for the Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb ?

I'M Guessing , thinkin , that it Was to make ALL ,
The Roman soldiers , the Jewish leaders and the women and male
apostles ... to be aware of Jesus body NOT any longer being in the tomb ,
sooner rather than later ?

... the evidence of his resurrection ... OR WAS IT Necessary for the secondary Urantia midwayers to roll away the stones from the entrance of the tomb so that
there Was access to the tomb for them to invoke the process of accelerated time.?


OK , So it Was Necessary for the stones to be moved away
so our Master Jesus could Exit the Tomb in
His morontia Form ! ... Correct ?


No, not correct. Jesus resurrected in his morontia form before his body underwent dissolution. He was resurrected at 3:02AM and exited the closed tomb while his physical body remained behind. Perhaps it was the intense vibrations of commingled material and morontial activities within the tomb which resulted in the photographic type image on the grave cloths. My question is, do all people resurrect this way, at the place where their physical body is on the third day? If so, why wouldn't there be more shrouds out there with faces on them? I'm guessing that this was an event peculiar to the Creator Son only because he did not require any assistance in making the transition from the material to morontia life.
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189:1.1 At two forty-five Sunday morning, the Paradise incarnation commission, consisting of seven unidentified Paradise personalities, arrived on the scene and immediately deployed themselves about the tomb. At ten minutes before three, intense vibrations of commingled material and morontia activities began to issue from Joseph's new tomb, and at two minutes past three o'clock, this Sunday morning, April 9, A.D. 30, the resurrected morontia form and personality of Jesus of Nazareth came forth from the tomb.
189:1.2 After the resurrected Jesus emerged from his burial tomb, the body of flesh in which he had lived and wrought on earth for almost thirty-six years was still lying there in the sepulchre niche, undisturbed and wrapped in the linen sheet, just as it had been laid to rest by Joseph and his associates on Friday afternoon. Neither was the stone before the entrance of the tomb in any way disturbed; the seal of Pilate was still unbroken; the soldiers were still on guard.

Nevertheless, Jesus resurrected at 3:02 and at 3:10 am the chief of the archangels asked for permission to take the physical body of Jesus for dissolution. Why did the stone need to be rolled away from the tomb? TUB implies that the physical body had to be removed from the tomb in order to go through the time acceleration process. It seems to say that the spiritual entities were capable of getting in with the stone in place, but the body could not get out with the stone in place. Why the body had to come out I don't know. Why the time acceleration process couldn't be done within the 10ft by 10ft tomb I don't know for sure, but; perhaps all the personalities necessary for the process could not fit in there, or the time acceleration process in a confined space may have gone nuclear, or maybe the body had to be elevated above ground like those who fuse with their adjusters . . . who knows?

What I've never understood is that if the body dissolved to dust by accelerating time, why didn't the grave cloths disintegrate too? If the grave cloths were found in the empty tomb, apparently undisturbed and if the body was wrapped in bandages, then it is doubtful that the archangels and friends unwrapped the body before removing it from the tomb. But using that logic, they would have had to bring back the empty grave cloths to the tomb and place them in their original position.

Quote:
188:1.4 They carried the body into the tomb, a chamber about ten feet square, where they hurriedly prepared it for burial. The Jews did not really bury their dead; they actually embalmed them. Joseph and Nicodemus had brought with them large quantities of myrrh and aloes, and they now wrapped the body with bandages saturated with these solutions. When the embalming was completed, they tied a napkin about the face, wrapped the body in a linen sheet, and reverently placed it on a shelf in the tomb.

189:5.2 Very soon Simon Peter rushed up and, entering, saw the same empty tomb with the grave cloths so peculiarly arranged.

189:5.3 Peter at first suggested that the grave had been rifled, that enemies had stolen the body, perhaps bribed the guards. But John reasoned that the grave would hardly have been left so orderly if the body had been stolen, and he also raised the question as to how the bandages happened to be left behind, and so apparently intact. And again they both went back into the tomb more closely to examine the grave cloths. As they came out of the tomb the second time, they found Mary Magdalene returned and weeping before the entrance.


Another thing that is interesting is that the bandages were saturated with embalming solutions. I'm not sure if any researcher as investigated whether or not these chemicals act as photographic solutions when exposed to intense light. There is another thing that bothers me about all the blood on the cloths. According to the documentary, the blood stains are still red. Everyone knows that blood exposed to air gets oxidized to brown. If these cloths (shroud and face cloth) are really 2000 years old, the blood stains should be dark brown. The fact that they are red suggests that some kind of permanent chemical change occurred. Why didn't the blood dissolve with the body? If they were able to pull this off without disturbing the cloths, they could have removed a thin layer of blood, I'm sure, in order to get rid of any evidence of his existence? It is interesting to note scientists have been able to isolate RBC's from the shroud and have determined that they are human and of AB blood type.

Another thing that doesn't make a lot of sense to me is that the blood on the shroud suggests that it was dripping. Common sense would say that the blood would have clotted by the time the body was cleaned, spread with embalming solution and wrapped in bandages. What does happen to a dead body though, is the seepage of serous bodily fluids, which are not blood. There has been no mention of the usual cadaver fluids on the cloth. Weird.

And finally, the 3-D of the figure in the shroud suggests that the knees, head and arms are bent. Chances are, when Joseph and the other men were preparing the body, rigor mortis had begun to set in, since it starts about 3 hours after death. But, they should have been able to straighten out the legs before wrapping him and put him flat on the stone. It was more than 36 hours later when the body of Jesus was put through the dissolution process by the archangels. At that time, rigor mortis would have disappeared and presumably, the body would have been flaccid. Yet, the shroud reveals the body was still in a bent position. Perhaps this is the position the midwayers were holding the body when it went through the dissolution process and this is when the image appeared on the cloth? Otherwise, if it happened at the time of the resurrection, the body should have been flat, unless it was being supported in that position on the stone slab for some reason.

And finally, do you think that the bodies of other incarnated Creator Sons are dissolved in the same way? Would leaving a body behind after a bestowal be the same as leaving other relics such as written material? If it was so important to get rid of the body, why would they leave the cloth behind as a relic? They obviously did leave them behind, we just don't know if the Turin cloth was part of them. Either way, it's a relic.

I know, I sound like I'm dwelling on the minutia, but I've been thinking about this for 30 years. Stuff just keeps rising up from the recesses of my cavernous mind.


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His face has a kingly and regal quality to it, just like the historians have described and befitting his role as creator son. God Bless!!


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The thing about dating the shroud that one should consider is that it was exposed to fire and then restored, which would throw off the results of a carbon dating test.

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Looks like it could be the real deal. New tests have placed the date range from 300 BCE to 400 CE


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