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Re: I don't believe the Book of Joshua

Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:22 pm +0000

Makalu wrote:unfortunately the papers dont give a date for moses and the exodus nor the name of a pharaoh but it gives a couple clues. first is that moses came after akhenaten who died in 1336bc (the el shaddai concept moses was raised under evolved from akhenaten's teachings and others). second clue is that the exodus happened when the pharaoh was "resisting the simultaneous onslaughts of a strong Libyan thrust from the south and a Greek naval invasion from the north."

now there's two pharaohs in egyptian history noted as having to fight both Libya and the "sea peoples"...merneptah 1213-1203bc and ramses iii 1186–1155 bc. its never been clear to anyone who exactly the sea peoples in egyptian records were but i believe merneptah was fighting the greeks by sea and ramses iii was fighting the barbarian hordes from turkistan mountains that overran the whole levant during the bronze age collapse.

so by my timeline the exodus happened during year 5 of merneptah's reign in 1208bc...wandering in the desert for 25 years i guess the papers say? so arrival in canaan/palestine around 1183bc. egyptian influence in that area ended with the battle of djahy in 1178bc so we're looking at maybe 5 years there under waning egyptian "rule". remember also that it was city states in that area that egyptian conquered and made vassals and not little villages in the mountains where it's believed the people of the exodus first settled. btw i believe that merneptah's stele telling of conquest in canaan prior to year 5 stating ""Israel has been wiped out...its seed is no more." refers to the group of semite followers of the melchizedek teachings that lived in that area at that time, and not to the bedouins of the exodus who were to soon join them and become the "jews".

EDIT: ok i found one of the "sea peoples" merneptah fought concurrent with libya (but ramses iii didnt) was "ekwesh" which hittite sources and the historian homer point to as being greece (mycenae), which would fit the papers timeline the way i've constructed it anyway lol

source link

Makalu wrote:oh i'll add one other thing. the papers say that the pharaoh had agreed to let moses & co. go if they agreed to not attack egyptians anywhere but then he changed his mind about letting them go. a year later they left but its possible that an informal truce between them remained and as long as they didnt attack the egyptians they didnt feel they had to fear them? maybe...maybe not...no matter

OK that helps explain things. Apart from the quote Kat gave earlier from paper 97, there is nothing else in papers 97 and 98 that help piece together what really happened. Papers 97 and 98 just continue explaining the enormous contribution the Hebrews have given to spirituality in the Urantian human experience.

It's interesting that in the effort to piece together a realistic narrative, one must read other sources and read between the lines. The Urantia Book goes to great lengths to clarify things from the Bible in great detail but here it did not. I suppose it means people will read what they want to read. The skeptic will continue to believe the exodus was a fictional event making the UB fictional, while believers will (if they are receptive to the teachings of the UB to begin with) be overjoyed at the clarification of the narrative confirming what they were raised to believe in church was true.

Do I personally believe the UB narrative of the exodus and the Hebrews settling in Palestine? At this point I am undecided due to the fact that the UB does not get into enough detail. That's actually an improvement over before when I rejected the Biblical narrative 100%.

One more thing I would add; if someone believes the UB narrative, I don't see why anyone would return to the church or synagogue to hear from the pulpit an embellished/exaggerated narrative. They have transcended past those "truths".

Re: I don't believe the Book of Joshua

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:03 am +0000

if someone believes the UB narrative, I don't see why anyone would return to the church or synagogue to hear from the pulpit an embellished/exaggerated narrative. They have transcended past those "truths".

From a learning perspective, I understand where you're coming from and I feel similarly. However, there are other reasons for participating in group worship and that is for fellowship. The UB tells us that it is not healthy to be too much in isolation. Our spiritual growth increases when we share worship and spiritual ideals with others. Of course, we may hear things in church or synagogue that we realize, from the UB, are incorrect; but we can rest assured in our own understanding without needing to 'correct' others. Take what works and leave the rest.

Re: I don't believe the Book of Joshua

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:18 am +0000

The historical narrative in the UB has two principal purposes IMO; first is to describe the origin and progress of evolutionary religion(s), and the second is to describe social evolutionary progress and to do both in a way which demonstrates Urantia's progression through the Mortal Epochs of Progress.

There is no aspect or time frame of the historical record in the UB that is replete or fully satisfying to ANY history buffs, even the lengthy and far more detailed story of the life of the Master.

Think what is left untold about Van and Amadon's adventure and the Gardens and the stories of the Andite migrations and conquests of the Pacific and Far East, etc.

Your disappointment with this episode of history is not unique as all students and believers want more stories and characters and details of the history of our world. The book was edited and limited in detail, scope, and length to include that believed to be only of the greatest priorities of knowledge which fit in 2000 pages and 4 pounds (or whatever the Ub weighs).

What should be left out to make room for more? How many volumes would a million years of history fill? Think of all the tales of heroism and romance and the history of insight and invention and struggle and failure and catastrophe and redemption and triumph in our history! From slime to the sublime is a story of record that is known and will be told and portrayed to us and there is a library wing in heaven dedicated to that story.

I can't wait to hear the tales of our heritage, many directly from the mouths of those who were there! And then there is our own ancestors and those tales of struggle and jeopordy and loss and character and achievement which resulted in me and my tribe.

To be skeptical of or disappointed in the UB because it lacks particular details of particular stories seems an odd criticism and rather petulant actually. It is not our personal curiosity but our collective curiosity that is being fed by this single volume I think. And there is the history of the bio evolution and geo evolution and stellar evolution and that history of time and creation and Paradise too, which must all fit between these book covers. What an editorial challenge! Can you imagine that decision process and writing challenge??!!

Curiosity is a blessed power of evolutionary progress and when combined with uncertainty becomes the gateway to certain adventure ahead! The stories told are only those I think which directly affect the greatest number for the greatest time in our history...the details of Jewish history, legend, and myth are simply not that critical to that priority I do not think.

You seek proofs and are disappointed in their lack and absence. But it is truth and faith that deliver Divine Assurance and not proofs. That is the point of the teachings and contents of the Papers. Enjoy!

:idea: 8)

As Agon D Onter points out, the congregational experience has much to offer and great meaning and value above its factual or mythical contents. Music and ceremony and symbolism and fellowship and community and culture while worshipping God is a great and worthy and often effective force for personal and social evolutionary progress!!

And let me express my appreciation for Makalu's scholarship and research on the question...well done!! :idea: :!: :biggrin:
Last edited by fanofVan on Sat Jan 11, 2020 9:16 am +0000, edited 2 times in total.

Re: I don't believe the Book of Joshua

Fri Jan 10, 2020 7:32 am +0000

well i think the ub narrative goes into details regarding the only two real spiritual lessons of the exodus...the concept of the covenant between god and jews which some believe began then and the giving of the law of moses at mt sinai. the papers explain the covenant and the role of the jews in the evolution of spirituality but overall focus on the more real relationship between god and every individual and pretty much explain away the events around mt sinai.

i think the revalators covered everything felt necessary and even if they elaborated people would still be looking between the lines with the same other sources for confirmation....egyptian and other local histories, archeology and linguistics being the main sources...and still lacking the same "proof" and pointing out the same discrepencies. i mean assuming merneptah was the pharaoh of the exodus and the papers explicitly said so people would still be pointing to the merneptah stele as proof that it cant be. in fact from what i've read merneptah was widely considered such up until the stele was discovered...

but hey we all have different questions and accept different answers and there are plenty of things taught in churches and synagogues that the ub reveals as little more than fairy tales. the exodus was never a big deal to me personally (albeit having been 80 miles downwind of the mt. st. helens eruption made me appreciate and understand the emotions ash and lightning can evoke in weak minded people lol) but i guess its like even though the first thanksgiving in america probably didnt happen the way i was taught as a kid i still observe it and appreciate its meaning and value.
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