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First, I note in William Sadler's logic, that spiritualisic tendencies were categorized by behaviours denoted as "Automated" psycism, et cetera. I see his basic tendency to distrust things of a spiritual "spiritualistic"trend.

But I am uncertain of a couple things:
What is the "We" that Sadler uses, does this include Sadler himself, and who others. Sadler & his comittee? Sadler and the "Spirits of the Trinity" et cetera?

What is this "Automation" Phenomena is this a separate category from human individuality per se?

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FanofVan, congratulations on having some diversity in your reading!

Nevertheless, the fundamentalism of a vocal handful of participants in the forum is painfully obvious. I am not the first person to comment on it.

"Agenda" is such a loaded word. You delight in ascribing it to me. I have an opinion. There is a difference. Apologies if my opinion has remained constant over the years.

My failed efforts to discuss other topics in a civilized manner here on the forum was what prompted me to start this thread in the first place. It's easy enough to find those topics if you are really interested. No need to discuss them here as part of this thread.


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BigAl - it would appear that you are "fundamentally" at cross purposes of TruthBook rather than any group of sincere UB students you may be referring to - from the guidelines posted here:

"Truthbook.com was created as a showcase for the teachings of The Urantia Book with an emphasis on Part IV, The Life and Teachings of Jesus.

This discussion board, as an extension of the Truthbook.com website, has one primary goal:
To be a safe place where newcomers to The Urantia Book can ask questions and explore the teachings of The Urantia Book in a communal setting.

In a sense, this forum is a Virtual Urantia Book Study Group. Specifically, it is a place for new readers to meet long-time readers. We welcome long-time readers as a valuable resource for assisting newcomers to better understand the teachings of The Urantia Book
; this discussion board is provided for the benefit of long-time readers too, keeping our primary goal in mind.

Administrators and moderators will be visiting these boards daily to ensure civility and harmony and keep them free of spam.

Discussion Board Guidelines & Rules:

We welcome individuals of all faiths to participate on this board and to share their beliefs; however; this discussion board is about The Urantia Book. If - for example - you feel inspired by religion/philosophy/idea "X", it would be advisable that you discuss "X" as it relates to The Urantia Book. As a Urantia Book discussion board it is the place to ask questions, but not the place for promoting or proselytizing one's own personal belief system.

Forum participants who are Urantia Book students, we humbly ask that you keep the spirit of this board: Outreach for the Urantia Book teachings."


A search of all your posts indicate very little interest in the Urantia Papers and far more attention to rebel angels on earth, "channeled" materials you find worthy, the Jesus "myth", reincarnation, and other topics that conflict and contradict the UB which IS what this site is for. Thankfully, there are those here who have actually read the UB and remain determined that the UB is central to topics and discussions here at this UB Study Group Site. It is unfortunate that you have no wish to actually discuss that subject matter which lies at the core of this group of students.

It is not required, nor important, that those who attend here believe in or agree with all within text....and yet it is the text that we study here primarily. That does not mean that none read nothing else or are rigid (or even in agreement) about any uniformity of belief or application of the teachings given us in the UB. TruthBook has a specific, if not narrow, purpose...no point in blaming those who study and share here that text with being narrow minded. The UB speaks eloquently for itself....one may agree or disagree and still be a sincere student.

No one needs the book to discover and express truth, beauty, and goodness or to grow in the spirit and find Paradise and eternal adventure. But here? We discuss the UB. There are many alternatives for those who find that concept uncomfortable or "fundamentalist".

Best wishes.

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You do realize there is an entire section of the forum called "The Skeptic's Corner" and this thread happens to be posted there, right?


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Good point...I should be less skeptical and critical of other's skepticism and criticism. I cannot say who is right or who is wrong on any issue or point....but can only allow the Papers to speak for themselves. Apologies for bad form and personalized rhetoric which only detracts from the text....and the skepticism both. One may be quite sincere as a truthseeker and remain skeptical of much.

Best wishes.

8)


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Perhaps the source of contention arises from the fact of the title "...and other channeled works" which seems to co-opt (imply?) the implication that The Urantia Book was channeled, since that is something no one who takes it seriously claims.

I would advise that the OP post more collaboration-inducing titles in the future.

That being said, there's an open question which the OP has raised, and it shouldn't be ignored:

Quote:
A hypothetical for you: The UB was published in 1955. It is now 60 years later. The circumstances in the universe have changed and the celestials want to provide us updated information. The original group of people isn't around anymore. What would happen if those exact same celestials tried to provide new information in the exact same way?


I think the answers that "the celestials didn't plan to" or "they have better things to do" or "epochal revelations only come very infrequently" are missing the point. The OP is trying to hit on a question that's very important and the question of authorship is only going to grow in the future. If we're waiting on another 1960 years for real answers, we need to consider textual analysis, stylometry, even word association experiments. There's a lot about TUB that is unanswered. Are we going to run from the facts? There's no need. TUB exists already, and there is some method by which it came into existence. The fact that the origin of the papers is obscure only makes the need for clarity greater, and makes the questions involved more pressing.

I personally find the lack of details about the origin of the papers disturbing because other people find it disturbing. The question of authorship is the one thing that prevents me from sharing what I find interesting and useful in the papers more broadly. I'm in the skeptic's corner because there's plenty to be skeptical about, not because I want to reduce TUB to something it's not, but also not to protect it artificially, because written works stand on their own merits.

Case in point: People copied portions, or complete copies of the Bible for 2000 years, the first 1500 years of which writing materials, literacy, and the ability to write were so scarce that the three only converged in the very rich, or perhaps the life-savings of several well-organized lower income people put together. But nevertheless people all over the world found and used these scarce resources to copy the Bible for century after century after century, something with a huge marginal utility cost to the people copying it. We have so many copies of Biblical manuscripts, from so many different time periods in fact that the integrity of the text to the originals is almost entirely beyond dispute, even among its strongest critics. The Bible is anti-fragile in this regard.

Does The Urantia Book have any of that? Nope. Not only do we lack multiple handwritten copies from various regions to determine the legitimacy of the original work, but we don't have flesh and blood authors to make the question of legitimacy as such meaningful, even if it were to be discovered. Suppose the attributions in the text are true. All of the authorship attributions only have meaning if you take the book at its word. Even then, you only have what the book says about the authors to know who or what they are. So the question of authorship is denied legitimacy in any sense that would be empirically satisfying. As long as the method of their inception stays nebulous, I think this is the grit between TUB and mainstream adoption.


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I have to be honest, I never much cared about the authorship of the Revelation or how it arrived. The words of any written document are just words until they have meaning. And it is the meanings I have discovered from reflecting on the words of the Revelation which have changed my views and attitude toward life and the cosmos. To me that has lasting value, and that's what matters. Truth is inconcussible regardless of where one finds it.

(1297.4) 118:3.3  Truth is inconcussible — forever exempt from all transient vicissitudes, albeit never dead and formal, always vibrant and adaptable — radiantly alive.


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But culturally one of the members of the Urantia Foundation William Sadler spent much of his career investigating the nature of human actions at the end of the spiritualist era. We have come a long way, in terms of how society views the human relationship with spiritual beings. If you can see the intention, that such beings should no longer control human actions directly, or to gratify the abilities of human listening and/or transcription. But you can see that the aim of certain members within the Urantia Foundation, was to seek the answer to these issues, during an era where human minds were sincerely striving to "make contact" with Archangels and spiritual entities that should help them to make a contribution to Urantia progress.

So, the channeling occurs, of course God can do all things, but not to gratify the thoughts that a man has. Or the tendency would be to "project" one's mind into the false simulation or mimicry of another personality. Can you estimate what might have been in the mind of William Sadler, even, if a man is allowed to see how such spiritual or morontial pursuits appear to detract from the human individual's focus, or ability to seek and do the will of God.

Well, the issue that grates at the reality of personality, is not channelling: but misrepresentation. It is just bothersome to be mocked by others who I feel do not understand me. I do not seek the word of God for my personal entertainment. The revelation that my perception is receiving into the mind of my soul is not the words of sages, but rather each minute detail of the material I need to work with. It is not good that the Creator Michael should speak to me through the works of mankind, "his collected teachings" perhaps, but rather that if men should learn to love Urantia and its citizens the way that Jesus does, then we would be able to become like the Apostles, who were fathers of the actual new world order (and not some mystic channeller who is a popular dancer), able to receive the blessings that Jesus prayed for them to receive.

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Stephen....channelling does NOT exist!!!! It cannot occur....

Not according to the Papers. Another contradiction. Believe what you will but do not misrepresent the UB please.

God does not nor do any celestials or spirits or persons or ghosts or souls speak THROUGH any person TO any other person. Don't happen. Parlor tricks and charlantanism as exposed by Houdini and Sadler and so many others. A primitive belief. Embrace it if you wish.

Those who give others spirit names, past life readings, contacts to the dearly departed, universe news, rebellion status, announcements related to leadership and administration, personal instructions, predictions, and fortunes, etc are, BY DEFINITION, frauds and fakes and in the business of manipulation.

Personal revelation is only to and for the one who receives it. Or so the UB teaches.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:56 pm +0000, edited 3 times in total.

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Compare the quality of the actual representations of distinct individual personalities found in tUB, to other channelled works, and you can see the the originality and the quality of counsel is not the same.

Jesus, who was the scribe of Damascus [129:4.1] spent a season of his lifetime, employed by a merchant of Damascus, and advised 12 Bankers there, being known as a Galilean there. His works transcend even the understanding of his own Apostles, but my point here is that translating a writing from one language into another, is much like the transcription that a certain human individual offered Sadler in order to re-present the purport and character of tUB's authors. Those authors are eternal beings whom as an ascender, one should become acquainted with. Okay, but guess what all of his translating, the good things Jesus did for others, was not known to the Apostles. That is the main difference between tUB and most other channelled works: the reminder that God's relationship to other human individuals, is personal, unsearchable, and always to the assistence of mortal intelligence creatures.

The aim of tUB's promotion, is self-realisation of the human-originated individual; rather than to ask a different sovereign entity other than yourself, there is a direct emphasis on doing the will of God, on obeying God's laws, and indeed such counsel from the authors as appears in tUB, unto all humanity, is conducive to the mobilization or empowerment of every aspect of the human personality. You can see that if you are a father and children want to be like you. You would want them to be like themselves , to express themselves as they truly are, and not as you are personally.

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You don't get it Stephen...there are NO channeled works. No other ones....none. There is nothing to compare. If one writes of their own inspiration and personal revelation, they are not channeling. Channeling is through the one mind and person to other minds/people. Don't happen.

The UB is not a channeled work. There is no such thing.


Last edited by fanofVan on Sun Aug 11, 2019 4:58 pm +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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fanofVan wrote:
The UB acknowledges two forms of revelation: personal/auto revelations - described as only the contact with the TA within or the Son's or Mother's Spirit and none of those can be identified one from another; there is no provision for contact with Midwayers, angels, dead mortals, or others; epochal revelation - described as being non-personal but planetary/epochal for all people, at least eventually as it is dispersed over time...The Urantia Papers claim to be the 5th given to us. Not a common event.

What you describe is either personal or second-hand, meaning to the one mind for other minds. This is NOT the teaching we study here. Your lack of knowledge as to how the UB was given and received may bring confusion and this is understandable but the Papers were delivered in written form. No human spoke or wrote the contents. The source of the Papers is irrelevant considering their contents which speak for themselves. Believe whatever you will. I have met many a channeler before and after finding the UB. Nothing of interest or import or value that I have discerned myself....either self delusion or intentional charlatanism.

The rules are given and for good reason...please consider:

The following Urantia movement-related controversies are banned from discussion in any of the forums (overt or covert):
* The Teaching Mission / Channeling. (We have no issue with people who believe they are communicating with non-human entities, or spiritual beings, or even with themselves. But this is not the forum for people to discuss those presumed communications.)
* The Copyright.
* Individual people that read The Urantia Book that do not please you.
* Urantia Book organizations that do not please you.

There is a simple reason that we do not allow these topics at all: They are divisive. These topics have been shown to disrupt and disable Urantia Book forums. If you want to discuss the above forbidden topics, please do so on another forum or with one another by way of email or Private Messages (PM). Then â€" once you have vented your spleen â€" come back here. Seriously, we are just not interested.

8)


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lwatkins wrote:
Before making assumed factual statements about the reception of the revelation and how it's like other channeled material it would be wise to spend some time at the Urantia Book Historical Society website -- ubhistory.org -- to become familiar with what the facts are. There is an abundance of speculation in the Urantia movement that's not supported by the historical letters, legal documents, personal stories and so forth that do provide factual context for the history of the revelation.

Also, it would be beneficial to understand the psychological methods and motivations for channeling. Yes, it's a real phenomenon; no it's not communication with spirit beings or other outside intelligences.

Larry


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lwatkins wrote:
An epochal revelation is relevant for thousands of years or more -- the spiritual aspects of TUB has not changed so far as human life on this world is concerned. "Celestials" don't want to give us more information -- they have other things to do with their time.

Channeling is a subconscious human mind activity disconnected from reality; it's not a "celestial" communication tool. It would be beneficial to understand the psychological methods and motivations of channeling. It would also be beneficial to spend at least as much time understanding the origin of TUB as in attributing its inception to spurious human mind activity.

Larry


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fanofVan wrote:
Since the moderators appear willing to allow this thread to stand for further scrutiny, I suggest that anyone who believes in the claims of medium-ship, or are otherwise attracted to this age old form of charlatanism, that the subject actually be investigated....no matter who makes the claim or what they say about their "abilities" or the news or personal information they may offer the gullible truthseeker. Below are links to wiki which provide an interesting history, right up to today, of the styles and claims made over the prior centuries....and before.

This is an ancient claim and has nothing at all to do with the Urantia Papers....those who claim this power and hold up the UB as their inspiration merely demonstrate another flavor of the mind at mischief....and directly contradict the UB thereby.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mediumship

A study of Harry Houdini's life and his sincere search for a viable medium (to speak to his dearly departed mother), resulting in a large cash reward for any successful demonstration of such powers in the early 20th century is an interesting tale....a fervent believer turned into skeptic turned into debunking crusader.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Harry_Houdini

And for those who seek "spirit" guidance but don't want to do the personal work of soul growth and the thinking required for enlightening, I suggest the Ouija board as just as reliable and credible a mechanism for speaking to the gods, angels, spirits, and the dearly departed...and it is so much handier. :lol:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ouija

:roll: 8)


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