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From the ages of 19-25 I was a believer in the teachings of the Urantia Book. I read the book cover to cover three times during that time. I was fascinated. Then my faith came to an end, and that is what I would like to discuss here.

At 25 I shared the book with my father. He did research on it and pointed me in the direction of Wikipedia and quoted from the section of the article dealing with irregularities between current science and what the book taught. I was devastated when I read about how wrong the book was in regards to known science and, holding the Urantia Book to the same standards I had the bible , dismissed it as a fraud for the same reason I dismissed the bible. If one statement in a Holy book is wrong then it calls into question the whole books accuracy. I could not dismiss or overlook the flaws in the Urantia Book because if one statement were wrong then it would destroy the value of the work as a whole. In order for the book to be from God there should be zero information that is wrong.

Now ten years has passed. I lost all faith in God and hadn't talked to him in a decade. However for some reason I yearn for the faith I once had, and thus I'm reaching out. I want to know thoughts on the inaccuracies of the book, how you dealt with them and continued to have faith.

I appreciate the parlay.


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Starscollide wrote:
At 25 I shared the book with my father. He did research on it and pointed me in the direction of Wikipedia and quoted from the section of the article dealing with irregularities between current science and what the book taught.


Your father did you a disservice. You would believe the trash in Wikipedia over TUB? Too sad for words. Please tell me specifically what you have discovered in current science that has made you, first turn away from TUB, and then also from your faith.

I can tell you that I have been quite critical of current science for its errors, lies and deceptions. Seems that you and your father have made an idol of science and are now suffering for it. I am the last to tell you to make an idol of TUB, and perhaps that is what the problem was with TUB initially as well. You must cease your ways of idolatry for it has gotten you to a state of despair. The Urantia book warns of idol making and clearly states at the onset that it is not infallible. I am looking forwards to hearing from you.


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Hello Starscollide,
Thank you for your post. It brings up several interesting attitudes that most of us face at various times in our lives, in particular, the values of logic, fact, truth, and faith which surely don't all conspire to help us reach the same conclusions... else we'd all believe the same thing. But they should conspire to help us develop similar outlooks regarding the meaning of life itself.

We're given logical minds to help us determine facts, but still we arrive at different facts. Logic is good and is helpful in living a material life, but it's not the pinacle of thinking. It's a tool. Scientists fall into the trap of seeing the tool as divine, as God.

Facts help us discern truth yet the truth I know is different from the truth anyone else has -- truth is molded by experience as well as by fact. Truth is relative to our experience and to our spiritual development.

From our relationship to logic, fact, and truth we either develop faith or we shun it; after all, it is the evidence of things unseen. If, like Thomas, we have to see to believe then faith will dissipate.

So, what's the point of life anyway? There are lots of opinions about this; The Urantia Book offers an opinion that tells us that the point of material life lies in developing faith that we are the children of a loving heavenly Father, that we're all spiritual brothers and sisters, that life is a progressive adventure toward knowing and understanding and loving the Father. That seems like a worthwhile opinion to pursue to me, better in fact than any other opinion I've ever come across.

Logic, fact, and truth aren't much help in developing this opinion and in fact, often become road blocks. Without faith we don't develop a soul and without a soul we don't exist beyond this life (a teaching of TUB). Why do we believe this? Through faith... first, faith in Jesus, faith that he wa a real person, faith that his life and teachings were real and that we can trust them. Faith that Jesus not only demonstrated that there is existence beyond this life, he actually proved it by returning. If faith can't provide the assurance that Jesus was real, through logic, fact, and truth then life of any kind will never have much value. Second, the belief in the development of the soul gives purpose to our existence here and now. Without this purpose life will never have much direction.

So, students of TUB have to ask themselves are its teachings logical, factual, truthful, and do they lead to enhancing faith? Is there anything better as a guide on the face of this world to believe or is non-belief a better alternative?

You mentioned how wrong the book was in regards to known science. Maybe you can provide some examples since as far as I know there are no known inaccuracies. And you said you could not dismiss or overlook the flaws in the Urantia Book because if one statement were wrong it's all wrong. Some current science isn't in accord with what TUB teaches, but that's not evidence of inaccuracies. Do we choose to make science god or can we suspend disbelief while searching for something better? A scientist of 100 years ago whole-heartedly believed things disproved today and a scientist of 100 years from now will whole-heartedly believe in things today's scientist doesn't. Are those good enough reasons to give up a belief in the existence of God?

Whether you believe TUB or don't -- those are personal choices based on your own logical thinking, fact gathring, and truth perception. If you have something better to base your faith upon that's fine but to my mind and the minds of many other students, there is nothing comparable in the world.

Also remember, anyone can be a skeptic -- it just requires a negative attitude and an axe to grind. Critical thinking is much more productive than skepticism and can lead to positive outcome.

Best wishes,
Larry


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I refer to the critical views section of the Wikipedia article, citing evidence, especially the Andromeda galaxy being a million light years away when we now know it's about 2.5 million light years away and, I quote, "The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun."

It's just if the book is from celestial beings, how could they make such mistakes?


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If you're human, it's impossible to live without faith. If you desire, you will have faith in God and grow to see what is true eventually. If you're an atheist, you will have faith in yourself that the truth is a lie. Either way, you will be faithful.


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If, in your belief and faith, you're willing to accept as factual any critique from someone you don't know, don't respect, whose mental capacity and whose reason for writing you don't understand then you will always live in confusion and doubt. It's your own inner conviction that's meaningful to you, not what anyone else believes or says is true. They have their own road to follow; it doesn't necessarily lead to your destination.

Science cannot and never will prove the existence of the spiritual over control of the material universe which is one of the fundamental principles taught by TUB. Is creation mechanical or is it designed and intelligently controlled and administered?

Innumerable times the Wikipedia article has been corrected to accurately reflect what TUB is and what it teaches -- just as quickly as it is updated it is hacked by non-believers. It's always better to go to the source, read for yourself, make your own judgments through reflective and critical thinking.

Larry


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Faith in God does not depend upon any book so that is the more interesting point to discuss IMO. The science in UB is thoroughly discussed here on many threads for your research, but two points to remember already presented: there is an active effort to debunk the UB by those with an agenda; modern science is not so certain of its current theories as such debunkers apparently are. The scientific "method" is sound and primarily disproves prior theory by new capabilities and the constant rate, so far, of the failure of prior theories to explain phenomena observed. Can we measure light year distances in space with accuracy yet? What's science have to say on that?

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Variable speed of light (VSL) is a hypothesis that states that the speed of light, usually denoted by c, may be a function of space and time. Variable speed of light occurs in some situations of classical physics as equivalent formulations of accepted theories, but also in various alternative theories of gravitation and cosmology, many of them non-mainstream. In classical physics, the refractive index describes how light slows down when traveling through a medium. The speed of light in vacuum instead is considered a constant, and defined by the SI as 299792458 m/s. Alternative theories therefore usually modify the definitions of meter and seconds. VSL should not be confused with faster than light theories. Notable VSL attempts have been done by Einstein in 1911, by Robert Dicke in 1957, and by several researchers starting from the late 1980s. Since some of them contradict established concepts, VSL theories are a matter of debate.

I lost my faith early in life, late teens to early twenties, for a season. I had recovered it by studying Ouspensky, the Tao, and Zen prior to finding the UB. I became angry at God first....did you too? Then I determined there was far too much iniquity and suffering for there to be a God. When I discovered the cause of suffering - self serving free will choices - and its cure...love itself, I remembered the Jesusonian Gospel within the Bible....God is Love and the source of all selfless Love, I regained my faith. We have free will. We must choose. All must do so. The result is predictable. The potential is far greater than its results thus far....and for good reasons, as presented in the UB. But faith can never depend upon a book or words written, no matter their origin/source; truth is lived and faith strengthens by such living. It begins with faith in a loving and paternal Creator who manages that creation with power, purpose, and plan. It ends where it begins...our source and center and destiny. Don't need a book for that reality recognition.....as billions of believers on our world will gladly tell you.

Best wishes in your quest to understand the meaning of life....and its source in eternity. You may wish to consider love itself, such an unnatural urge...and consider the source of suffering in your life and the lives of all others.....and how the two are related one to another. Isn't the lack of love the source of suffering? From whence comes love? What is its value and result? Why were we commanded to love God and one another? Because it works.................................!!

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Starscollide wrote:
I refer to the critical views section of the Wikipedia article, citing evidence, especially the Andromeda galaxy being a million light years away when we now know it's about 2.5 million light years away

One must remember that our current science calculates distance in space based on our understanding of lightspeed as assumed that space is a vaccum but, the UB also indicates that space is not empty. Therefore if the UB indicates that Andromeda galaxy is closer it would indicate that light is traveling slower then space being a vacuum and then one must assess where the focal point is to messure distance, either from the center or edge of the Andromeda galaxy. Then there are other variables which the UB indicates that can be a factor, so it may have nothing to do with who is right or wrong but what factors have been presented or the perspective used in making specific statements?


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Starscollide wrote:
I refer to the critical views section of the Wikipedia article, citing evidence, especially the Andromeda galaxy being a million light years away when we now know it's about 2.5 million light years away and, I quote, "The book repeats the mistaken idea that planets close to a sun will gradually spin slower until one hemisphere is left always turned to the sun due to tidal locking, citing Mercury as an example. Scientists at the time of the book's origin thought one side of Mercury always faced the sun, just as one side of the Moon always faces the Earth. In 1965, radio astronomers discovered however that Mercury rotates fast enough for all sides to see exposure to the sun.[106] Scientists further established that Mercury is locked in this spin rate in a stable resonance of 3 spins for every 2 orbits, and it is not slowing and so will never have one side left always turned to the sun."

It's just if the book is from celestial beings, how could they make such mistakes?


The celestial being did not make a mistake, they were pointing to our mistakes. Take the case of the Andromeda galaxy. Read that quote carefully and you will find that it states that the light left Andromeda a million years ago, NOT that Andromeda is a million lights years away. What you may not be taking into account is that space has been moving, expanding, for the past million years, as well as light. TUB tells us that space motions are absolute in primary and secondary motion, respirations and rotations, respectively. Light is matter as it has weight. There is space in matter. Space is in a logarithmic acceleration because that is the conclusion you must draw from the motions of space described by TUB. Light must also be in the same acceleration. So, TUB is giving us a clue that Einstein's constancy of light is in ERROR. It took only a million years for light to reach us from Andromeda because light has been accelerating all along. That acceleration is logarithmic. Our science is false, not the celestial's.

Mercury is more complicated to explain but science is again wrong and the celestials are correct. Einstein assigns his famous number .45 to precession of Mercury per year while having no mathematical or theoretical reasons for that time assignment. He simply assumed the period of precession, since his number matched historical equations. This assumption is false since his number .45 applied to the curvature of his field at the distance of Mercury's orbit. That is, it was a constant, applying during one second or one century. Space is expanding and he did not take account of this. And more math would not have solved the problem because the curvature was changing in time. Furthermore, even with his math and a constant curvature, he simply applied the curvature number directly to the precession. This is grossly negligent and no one noticed.

As it turns out, he applied the curvature per year to the Earth year: that is, .45 per 365 days. He did that because it would mean .45 is what we on Earth would see. It would immediately confirm the number. Unfortunately, the curvature must be applied to the Mercury year of 88 days, since the curvature is applied to the orbit of Mercury! And this means that Einstein needed to transform 88 days to 365 days, to explain the .45 we see from Earth. But he didn't want to do that, because it would change the number .45 and ruin his math.

If we go to Wiki today we learn that the Earth has a precession of its perihelion just like Mercury, and that this precession is also thought to be caused by perturbations form other planets. It is called the anomalistic precession of the Earth. Mysteriously, this precession is never included in the analysis of Mercury, although it must clearly affect our measurement of Mercury's total precession. If the Earth and Mercury are both precessing due to perturbations (and we assume they are precessing in the same direction since both orbits are prograde) then one number has to be subtracted from the other in order to get a resultant precession. This has been ignored by everyone! The observed given number for anomalistic precession of the Earth is 1157. Reminder, this is observed and not calculated.

Wiki tells us that, "Because the anomalistic year is longer than the sidereal year while the tropical year (which calendars attempt to tract) is shorter, the two forms of procession add." That is true, if we measure both precessions relative to the tropical year. But if we measure the precession relative to the sidereal year, it is false. Relative to the sidereal year, the two forms of precession subtract. Meaning, we need a difference. We need to use the sidereal year, because that is where we are getting all our numbers relative to Mercury. Mercury doesn't care anything about our tropical year, and the stars and Sun don't either. The tropical year is calculated using the ecliptic and equinoxes, but the things can be seen only from Earth. The fundamental field for measuring all sorts of precession must be the sidereal field.

Stake your lot with Wiki if you like, but you are backing the wrong horse. The physicists of the past and present are too secretive. All the papers I have read, from Euclid to Newton to Einstein to Feynman, have been like puzzles. What are they hiding? And is it purposeful? They, like most other scientists, have hidden the groundwork because they have no confidence in it. They kept it out of the light of day because it could not survive the light of day, and they knew it. As TUB says, sunlight is an effective disinfectant.


66:5.20 The great obstacle in the way of promoting hygiene among these ignorant peoples consisted in the fact that the real causes of many diseases were too small to be seen by the naked eye, and also because they all held fire in superstitious regard. It required thousands of years to persuade them to burn refuse. In the meantime they were urged to bury their decaying rubbish. The great sanitary advance of this epoch came from the dissemination of knowledge regarding the health-giving and disease-destroying properties of sunlight.


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Hi Starscollide,

Having gone through a similar experience and recalling the experiences of others, I find your current outlook perfectly normal. Seasons of doubt are merely periods of delay. There is danger inherent in stagnation, for sure, but if one is truly desirous of approaching the Truth, then eventually, inevitably, they will discover the shaky foundations of whatever belief system they have constructed and go earnestly seeking not just a new foundation, but the bedrock itself.

I was a youngin' when I discovered TUB at 16 and I was an instant believer. But I walked away from it once I hit college, attempting to apply my newly acquired critical thinking skills. Then the death of my mother when I was 20 seemed to shake what little I thought I believed in completely away. And I wondered in darkness for many years.

There are a lot of details between then and now, and it's hard for me to pin down exactly what's relevant for you. I will just say that eventually I realized that when I thought I had believed the book, I really didn't. Sure, intellectually there were many things that resonated so profoundly that I was certain of their truth. But then there were the doubts, such as the ones you are dealing with now, and the strange origin story.

I discovered a couple of things.. that a revelation by its very definition will NOT agree with science. That "modern science" has adopted its own belief system, particularly in the field of cosmology-- it's the mechanistic materialist's origin story.

I discovered that one of the reasons I was so troubled by these apparent conflicts was not really due to my desire for truth, but rather due to my vanity and pride. It reduced down to a fear of what people would think of me if I admitted I was a reader and did believe the things presented in the book.

I discovered the difference between belief and faith. I knew OF God and had decided He made sense, but I did not really ever know God. And we are now just at the very infancy of our friendship.

I found that despite having read the book for so long, I wasn't sincerely studying it. I thought I understood things that I truly didn't.

I also saw that even after I intellectually embraced the book as a revelation, that was just the prerequisite. Now I must actually live the teachings and experience their truths.

I firmly believe we all must undergo this process at our own pace and in our own stages, but that we are ultimately in a river toward God. it is in our animal nature either to try to swim against the current or hold on to the bank so we feel safe. We see the rapids ahead and often we're just too afraid. But this is God's river, and through his Sons and in His relationship with you, he has assured you that you are safe. You just gotta let go! :)

Easier said than done, of course. Hopefully this helps.


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I appreciate all the responses. I'm going to start reading the book again, see if it still resonates with me. I remember when I first came across it in the Army I was blown away by the material and what it represented. I miss having faith, and I hope that reacquainting myself with the book, which I still have after all these years, will help me to revive my faith.


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(195:6.16) Freedom or initiative in any realm of existence is directly proportional to the degree of spiritual influence and cosmic-mind control; that is, in human experience, the degree of the actuality of doing "the Father's will." And so, when you once start out to find God, that is the conclusive proof that God has already found you.


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Aloha Starcollide and I was touched by you honesty. I love receiving the Daily Quotes from Truthbook in my email and like to expand and read more. Kinda here and there. I work in the science community with Astronomers from around the world and know that science is growing and changing all the time... I only wish I could say... Hey look at this :) I always look for a opportunity. Like we know... Seek and ye shall find. Enjoy the ride :) After all we are Agondonters :)

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Starscollide wrote:
I shared the book with my father.

8:1.11 It is enough of a reach of the material mind of the children of time to conceive of the Father in eternity. We know that any child can best relate himself to reality by first mastering the relationships of the child-parent situation and then by enlarging this concept to embrace the family as a whole. Subsequently the growing mind of the child will be able to adjust to the concept of family relations, to relationships of the community, the race, and the world, and then to those of the universe, the superuniverse, even the universe of universes.


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Starscollide 8)

Im glad your going to Re read the Urantia book again ,
and by doing so I Have no doubt that you will find many
pearls of wisdom that you may have overlooked or not seen before ,

Ive read an re read it many times an study it almost daily,
Years ago when I First read it i was a skeptic , yet now i believe
that IT IS WHAT IT IS The FER ,

But thats me

Tho It cant hurt to re read it eh and by questioning an
searching an asking questions you will an shall learn more
Truth , an find answers your looking for .
Truth IS Truth regardless where its found or its source .

IMO Hope is similar or the start of Faith and that is only the
begining to believing .

I Turned may back on GOD too many years ago .
Yet i found out that when i needed him he was there .
In fact it didnt matter IF I Believed in Him ,
He believed in me / ... US ,

Anyhow im not trying to be preachy , and you got lots of
advice to think about .

Do keep questioning and asking an searching for the answers your looking for .

IMO Regardless if you re read the Ub or not.
yet IMO You should ,

Some unasked for advice ,

Take a few minutes each morning , afternoon or evening
For some personal quite time , In Prayer an or positive
thots . Theres NO Wrong way to Pray ,

IT Helps an cant hurt .

Look within , Your Spark is there ,

I Look forward to hearing more from you .

Peace Coop


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