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 Post subject: Let the Truth be told...
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First, before I go into this post any further, I want to tell everyone that I WANT to believe in The Urantia Book. What it offers is unlike any other book I have EVER seen in history, and that's that. I have read and studied everything from Christianity, to Thelemicism. However, nothing that I have read answers the most meaningful questions the UB does. The way I see it is, if it's true, then it's got to be one of the greatest books of humankind. However, on the other hand, if it's false, it's, no doubt, one of the most blaphemous books against God since the beginning of time!

If I were to go to God and tell Him them He didn't say what was scribed in the Bible by Isaiah or any other book in it, I would be directly insulting God, calling Him a liar, and pretty much getting a one way ticket to Hell. The same goes if I told Him that His words were incorrect! Anyway, on to it.

I just started reading the UB recently. I love everything about it. It answers things that are so important to me, as well as to others I would presume. I think that's why we like it so much. However, I have a HUGE problem with it, and a HUGE problem with what people are allowing themsleves to comform to given the circumstances.

Here's what I DON'T understand. I notice in the UB there are alot of contradicitons, which are obviously pointed out by whoever authored www.ubhoax.com. Also, in the fourth book, about Jesus, it talks about the things Jesus said and/or didn't say, opposed to what the Bible says he said. Like, for instance, the UB says that Jesus said to the prisoner "you will be with me "sometime" in Heaven", whereas the Bible says He says "you will be with me today in Heaven". Forgive me for disbelieving, but "sometime" doesn't seem like something I think Jesus would say dying on the cross. I mean, c'mon. Think about it. Imagine it, Jesus looking over to a dying prisonerner, and telling him "hey, I promise you, sometime you will be with me in Heaven...just not today". Or, better yet, imagine what the prisoner would have said had Jesus said "sometime". I'm sure he would have came back with a question like "well, what will happen to me when I die right after then? will you be with me?"...get my point?

Furthermore, I noticed that there's alot of material in the UB that is based on earlier books of it's time. Does this not raise some eyebrows?...I'm sure it does. Many of you men and woman on here are very smart, well educated, and I'm guessing experienced enough to know there's something wrong with that. Now, AGAIN, I'm not saying anything bad about the UB, all I'm saying is prove me wrong! please! I WANT to believe in this book, but I have seen no answers to the many critics that have pointed out very significant things! I also believe adversity is there to strengthen our faith by testing it. Doesn't it state in the bible of Thessalonians "test all things...keep what is good." Well, I don't think there's anything wrong with testing all of you! Let us prove this book has some basis.

Another thing I just can't personally tolerate is how people here believe that you can believe only parts of a book. It is my personal belief that if you find something that doesn't taste right, you don't eat it. Not, "well, it taste like some of it is okay"..Well, the way I see it is, go ahead and taste it, if you get sick though, you will learn your lesson. We HAVE to test all things, and I am obviously here to TEST all of the UB, because those that have tested a little have been indirectly threatened to be bumped off of this forum.

Listen, AGAIN, I am here out of LOVE for my fellow man. I, like you, want to believe in this book. However, I'm not going to lie to myself for the betterment of my views of life. I mean, I could put on rose colored glasses and make everything pretty, but the fact remains that it is what it is no matter what I do to it!

I've read many articles on here, and you all seem like good people. I think that you are all missing the point however. If this book IS a hoax made up by Mr Sadler, or his wife in conjunction with others who obviously knew and read about related subjects of their time, and you people do believe it, think about what you are commiting against of God that bore you into existence!!!!

I think, together, we can all prove our faith, and that's what I'm here to ask. PROVE to me, or at least defend the UB from honest critics like the ones from www.ubhoax.com. I don't think that's much to ask. If our Lord and Savior, Jesus Christ, came down and other threw rocks at him, you best believe I would defend Him! So, the same goes for all of us and the UB if we truly believe in it.

Peace,

Jay

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The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold.
-- Aristotle (384-322 BC)


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Jay
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The truth must be known!


Hi Jay,

Reasonable questions all and no one should chastise you for doubting, but the only valid test of this revelation is whether the teachings work when applied. If you let yourself believe and follow these teachings, do you grow in spirit? After 23 years, I've found them to be valid and ever stimulative of greater openings to grander truths, so far without finding any limit.

We may debate apparent contradictions, discuss theories and argue points, but you will still not know if the UB is what it claims until you've set the teachings to work in your personal and inner life. The proof of all spiritual growth systems is increasing goodness, love and divine knowing.


I believe the Urantia Papers offer the best system of soul progress on the planet. I tried most of them at one time or another, but none are so open ended and free of dogmatism as to promote spirit liberty and the grasp of real substance.

Regards, Rick



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Hello Jay,

Thank you for your note and welcome. An attitude of inquisitive skepticism is always appropriate when encountering new thoughts and ideas -- trying to decide between truth and error by studying material with a decided bias is not helpful however -- neither the UBHoax website, nor Martin Gardner's book will help you in your quest for knowing truth -- their minds were made up before they approached TUB and they've used their prejudice to prove their initial assumptions. It's no different than had you lived 2,000 years ago deciding beforehand that Jesus was a fraud and setting out to prove your point, as the scribes, pharisees, Sanhedrin, did. They proved their prejudice to their own satisfaction.

When the choice between deriving your own independent conclusions, developing your own opinion, and accepting the conclusions and opinions of someone else, especially in a matter of as monumentally important as the discerning the validity and worthwhileness of this book is at stake, you owe it to yourself to study the source and rely on your own responses to spiritual truth and material facts. If you rely on someone else's opinion you short circuit that truth response -- the Spirit of Truth works in your mind as fully as it will work in anyone else's -- trust it, trust Jesus -- ask Jesus to be with you as you embark upon this voyage of discovery. If, after you've invested your own effort at discerning the truth, you conclude it's not for you, you can't believe it, then you know you've arrived at your decision to the best of your ability -- not riding on the coattails of someone one else's decision, someone you don't know the motives or life experiences of. Never rely on others to make decisions of spiritual importance for you.

Perhaps as much as 90% of the text of TUB can be found in earlier sources -- books published or in the process of being published at the time the Urantia material was being received. The authors tell you right up front that this is the process that would be used in presenting the material since it's the best way to present new understanding -- it's just that not until recently, especially with internet search capability, did anyone actually make a scholarly effort to locate this human source material. Quite possibly many of these human sources were inspired at the time they wrote their material. Whole paragraphs and sections of books are incorporated in TUB, with a subtle turn of phrase here or the substitution of a word there -- the book is as much a complete revelation of new spiritual truth to the world as if it had been written from scratch by the revelators -- but the masterful rewriting of human source material makes the book even more comprehensible, more revelatory, more divinely inspired. I suspect that before long you will recognize that no human or group of humans could have written such magnificent material.

Best wishes on your adventure.
Larry Watkins


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p341:1 30:4.4 2. Sleeping Survivors. All mortals of survival status, in the custody of personal guardians of destiny, pass through the portals of natural death and, on the third period, personalize on the mansion worlds. Those accredited beings who have, for any reason, been unable to attain that level of intelligence mastery and endowment of spirituality which would entitle them to personal guardians, cannot thus immediately and directly go to the mansion worlds. Such surviving souls must rest in unconscious sleep until the judgment day of a new epoch, a new dispensation, the coming of a Son of God to call the rolls of the age and adjudicate the realm, and this is the general practice throughout all Nebadon. It was said of Christ Michael that, when he ascended on high at the conclusion of his work on earth, "He led a great multitude of captives." And these captives were the sleeping survivors from the days of Adam to the day of the Master's resurrection on Urantia.


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p596:3 52:5.5 On Urantia the establishment of this "new and living way" was a matter of fact as well as of truth. The isolation of Urantia in the Lucifer rebellion had suspended the procedure whereby mortals can pass, upon death, directly to the shores of the mansion worlds. Before the days of Christ Michael on Urantia all souls slept on until the dispensational or special millennial resurrections. Even Moses was not permitted to go over to the other side until the occasion of a special resurrection, the fallen Planetary Prince, Caligastia, contesting such a deliverance. But ever since the day of Pentecost, Urantia mortals again may proceed directly to the morontia spheres.



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p1641:4 146:3.2 "You should never forget that intolerance is the mask covering up the entertainment of secret doubts as to the trueness of one's belief. No man is at any time disturbed by his neighbor's attitude when he has perfect confidence in the truth of that which he wholeheartedly believes. Courage is the confidence of thoroughgoing honesty about those things which one professes to believe. Sincere men are unafraid of the critical examination of their true convictions and noble ideals."


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Hi Jay:

I want to thank you for presenting a well reasoned, objective set of questions. I have looked at the website “ubhoax.com” and have this critique:

This website is put together by well meaning Christians as a defense of the bible against what appears to me as a perceived threat against their core belief system.

Scanning briefly thru a few of their repudiations, I found no hard science, no black and white facts (please correct me if I am wrong here, I don’t mind). I did see, over and over, their (correct) ascertains that the UB does indeed contradict the bible in many important places.

So there you have it. The UB DOES contradict many of the most fundamental points of the bible. I would go so far as to say that this book brings up points which go against some of the most basic tenets of Christianity. And I take it for granted that this is a big stumbling block for a bunch of people.

So what to do? Well, first off, lets bring up one important fact. Notice how there are no major movements of people who believe the UB against the teaching of the bible. Why is that? Well, one of the biggest differences between the people who believe the bible and those who believe the UB is that those who believe the UB do NOT consider it to be a “sacred” book. In fact, I will state right here and now, the UB is NOT a sacred book, at least not in the common sense of the word “sacred”. No one who really knows the UB will tell you that God wrote this document. And because of this, the people who believe the UB have no need to rally against the people who believe the bible. We have no fear of the bible; it is not a threat to us.

I’m gonna give it to you straight. The UB is the 5th epochal revelation of truth to mankind. It was transmitted through an individual by the beings who inhabit the universe. The purpose of this revelation is to explain what is going on beyond the borders of our planet. The presentation was timed to coincide with the event of the dawn of a scientific age of reason, an age which will eventually reject certain elements found in the religions of the world. Now this is not to say that the religions of the world are fantasies. It is to say, however, that evolutionary religions, ALL evolutionary religions, invariably contain these elements, and these elements are beginning to have a detrimental effect on their overall message. Since you are coming from a Christian viewpoint, I will list a few of these elements from the Christian religion which are already having this effect:
• The chosen people doctrine
• Blood sacrifice appeasing a wrathful God
• The requirements that a person conform to a rigid theology in order to get into heaven.
• The rejection of evolution
Like it or not, the religions of the world are failing to keep pace with an ever accelerating age of science and technology. And this is a shame, because the religions of the world contain so much truth, so much beauty. Indeed, if only the world’s religions would break free of their self-imposed restrictions, and grow apace with the ever expanding realms of science, the UB would possibly not be needed at this time.

So instead of considering the UB to be a NEW religion, it would be more correct, in my opinion, to consider it a factual SUPPLEMENT to all the existing religions of the world. The UB makes no contradictions of the basics truths found in the world’s religions. It does, however, fearlessly correct the mistakes, accidental and deliberate, which have found their ways into the belief systems of a humanity which, through no fault of its own, found itself in the unenviable position of being isolated on a world of universe rebellion, a world cut off from universe communication, over two hundred thousand years ago.

You ask someone to PROVE this to you. Frankly, I’m not gonna waste my time on that one. Just as there is no way to PROVE to anyone, any of the teachings of ANY religion, there is no way to prove the teachings of the UB to you. All I can tell you is that you will have to let the spirit within you tell you if what you are reading is true or not. I can, however, defend the usage of human writings in this supposedly “alien” work… the authors are very up-front in their statements that existing trains of human thought will be freely used to put forward their concepts. They admit to freely borrowing from existing works of humanity. In fact, it is part of their mandate to do so. They are instructed to only introduce new concepts when there is no existing human concept which more or less fills the conceptual void they are trying to present. This usage of existing works from an earlier time actually adds credulity to the UB, at least that is my opinion.

I guess, bottom line here, people who believe some or all of the message of the UB are not concerned about pissing off God. They believe in a God of love, and are on an individual journey to find him. They believe in their interpretation of the message of Jesus, the simple truth of the Fatherhood of God, and the Brotherhood of Mankind. They believe that all mankind is indwelt with the spirit of the Father, a perfect guide which will lead them to (eventually) to his perfect Being. They believe the commandment, “Be you perfect, even as I am perfect”, although they understand that perfection may be only obtained by the imperfect creature in the infinite reaches of eternity. They exude a serenity, a completeness of purpose, a sublimity which confounds and confuses, even threatens certain elements of our society. Some of these threatened individuals have, in my opinion, put together a website “ubhoax.com” in which they assail this book out of fear. They are threatened. But I say, “Remember the words of Jesus, our common master, “Fear not.”.


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Before going further, even more, I would like to apologize for indirectly offending anyone if this is so the case here with my post. My initial intentions are not to offend or "debunk" anyone's set of beliefs. On the contrary, my initial intetnion is to be a critic for the purposes of testing a belief system, or book, for the sake of something much greater, and of so imperative value. We cannot lose the gift of this testing, which the Bible teaches us, and which common wisdom doesn't let us forget.

Before a sword can be what we know it to be (at least the Japanese sword), it has to be put through fire, and water a number of times. It has to be hammered, shaped, sharpened, and finally polished. This is how we must be with all things, not just the UB! And I'm not teaching or revealing anything here, we ALL know this, because we're ALL human. However, the problem surfaces when we use this beautiful mind that we were given by God to manifest things of our own imagination. Of course, there's nothing wrong with this (sci-fi)....until we take the childlike appraoch, or the premature, or even immature appraoch and use our mind to TRY and make our own rules. It's natural for us to do this as children, not adults.

Now, what am I saying?..DId I say the UB was fictional? Did I say is was a hoax?...NO. I simply said if we're going to believe in something which states the things the UB states, we need to take the time to test it and defend it against those that would wish every copy of it to be burnt at the stake! In fact, I'm not only here as a Thomas believer, I'm here as a faithful believer. I want to believe this book.

I found this book about a month ago, bought it, and have read only a portion of it, loving every bit, until actually GETTING on this forum realizing I'm not the only one questioning things..I thought to myself "what am I doing?...taking everything in the book as if it were true.". What motive was allowing me to believe everything, just because it sounded right?

The Spirit of Truth, of my understanding, is the Spirit of God, the Counselor. It tells us, subtly, what's right and wrong. HOWEVER, if I were to tell a child who lost his or her father that they went to Heaven, and pointed up, does it, in fact, mean that's where they went? NO! Therefore, just because something sounds right doesn't make it right. Only when we test all things, and find that it is worthy, do we eventually come to the conclusion that is or isn't worhty of goodness....but still not truth. Which brings us to another level of truth in and of itself.

The fact that something is good doesn't make it truth...or does it? Who am I to say what's truth or not? Truth, to human understanding, is something that is correct, upright, right, true, whole, and real INDEPENDENT of human thought or nature, which is why it is so important. Falsity is something DEPENDENT of human thought or nature...right? Now, what makes the Bible true?...two things that I know of right off hand. These are (1) the Spirit of God, or Spirit of Truth, and one of the most important next to Love...Faith! But, Faith can only be worthy if it is intrusted in, of , and though the Spirit of God. In addition, the Bible follows a code of truth that has been in existence since even before Enoch, and his scribed book, whereas the UB is new, untested, and opposes the Bible on many subjects...Is it fair that we allow this UB to go untested?..Just to pass through our gaurds as if it were someone we have known forever? Would we allow a stranger to pass through our gaurds and into our heart?...I don't think so..so WHY do we allow the UB?! That's my argument.

I could care less for Christianity as we know it today. I wouldn't even consider myself anything more than traveling mystic, traveling from one faith to another in search of the ultimate. However, in the Bible there is historical record in accordance with MANY different faiths including the Muslim Koran (Koran - Old Testament), the faith of the Jews even today (Old Testament) all of which hold the same books of faith, regardless of their ways of life.

The UB is a massive book of wisdom, generally speaking. It has many thoughts which are shared, as well as beliefs that are new and interesting. My only problem with it is, too many people take it as it is without second thought, ONLY because it answers questions which are so dire needed in the human mind. I know many people today that will get so into a television show only because it serves the purpose of passing time, and giving to them what they are missing out of their own lives. Does it do justice to the bigger reality? Does it do justice to the greater truth they refuse to see and keep ignoring out of ignorance? No. WHat is the greater truth? Their need to understand why they are here and what they need to do in order to attain eternal life, or whole life minus the imperfections of this earthly world.

As I said, I am a believer, and critic. I don't see anything wrong with either. In fact, both serve the other if those of you who don't like my ideas would even question your own questions. It's not up to me to make up your mind, and this I'm not trying to do. It is up to me what I do with my soul, and how I choose to see the world and universe. If it is true, so be it. I will gracefully take it with me on the next level of existence. If it is false, and I take it with me, not only will I hold myself in contempt of the higher courts even before I step foot in it, but I will disgracefully have let down my Creator, and my Lord, Adonai, Jesus Christ.

Lux, Vita, Amor,

RS

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The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold.
-- Aristotle (384-322 BC)


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In response to Iris' questions, I would like to respond.

As to the quote "you will be with me today in Heaven" I have this to say. The Bible is apparently made to reveal more truth with time, thus proving it has a state of evolution, at least in the eyes of the beholder. Since it's first publishing, if you will, the Bible has revealed more and more in 2,000 years, not only with the generations, but spiritually as well. We still don't understand Revelation, and we may not even understand it in our lifetime. There may come a time when the human mind, or a human mind, cracks it's code, thus warning us of whatever is to come, or what must be done in order for spiritual survival, or even physical survival.

Not long ago, I was part of a secret organization, occult, if you will, and we actually studied this book of Revelation. The order made it's claims of what it meant, and or didn't mean, and it was striking. It was very complex an explanation, and it could be partially true. Will the general population ever understand or hear about this? No. But, it proves that there are those of us that know the power behind the Words of the Bible, even if we're not Christian. In addition, it also serves to prove that the Bible either has an ability to independently work it's evolution governed by some higher form, or that we humans have the ability to eventually evolve to a point that we can understand it's works. I believe the former, only because the human mind hasn't changed in many, many thousands of years, according to science.

The UB, however, we don't know anything about. What we do know is that is seems to be a compilation of various books of it's time, whether this is purposeful by the acts of the so-called authors, or the actual people it was reveled to may never be known. The fact remains, however, that either this book is what it says it is, which would be absolutely the greatest thing since the Bible, or it is a complete hoax...50/50 % chance..that can be scarry, especially when you figure your soul is on the line.

The interesting thing with the Bible is (and I hate to make this about the Bible), it is a compilation of various prophets works. People have died for it and because of it. Saints have suffered, people have sacrificed themselves for it, etc. Here's the key..If you follow what it says, and it comes out to be wrong, God can't hold it against you because the PRICE!!! which the people of the Earth have payed to it has been enormous! To me, the Bible is like God, and the UB is like His son...if the latter is true. Why? On what grounds can we say the UB is equal to the books of the Bible? Has it been tested?..even a little? Maybe a little...Do you see what I'm getting at? If you believe there is a God, then you can't deny the books of the Bible. Therefore, how can we explain the differences in the Bible vs the UB?

Furthermore, Dr. Sadler was a Christian! Wasn't he?...at least for a little while. So, I would doubt that he would deny what the Bible says. Is there an explanation?..Sure. There's tons. We could say that the men who scribed the books of old were not completely correct in many ways, because they added their own beliefs according to their time, however we could say the same thing about the UB. It goes on and on...

Also, (and I know I got off track here) as for the "today", again this is a form of evolution from the Bible. We here on Earth experience what we call yesterday, today, and tomorrow. In Heaven, (now I could be wrong) I don't think there are days. If we step outside of our world, and outside of our solar system, would we experience days? Would we even experience time if we didn't have a watch? which is based on the revolutions of the Earth. So, "today", coming from Jesus, could mean anytime from the death of the individual to the time he was awaken by the angels...whenever that was, because he was still within the time he died...So, in essence, wouldn't it make sense that he forever lived in the day he Died? He couldn't have live anymore "days", per se. Interesting huh?...But this is how the Bible outsmarts us! One word, with time and evolution, can mean many different things and yet all at the same time. For the time it was originally scribed, people thought, like we do, that Heaven was like Earth. But, with science, and wisdom, we understand that there's a possibility this isn't true..just using common knowledge.

I could say the same things about the three days it took for the ressurection. Jesus, accoring to Catholocism, dies, descends into hell, and raises the next day, and we all know hell is within the confines of the Earth, or least the Bible says so somewhere if I'm not mistaken. Satan was thrown down here wasn't he? We also know there are seven heavens according to the book of Enoch, which St Paul knew of as well. So, Jesus didn't actually leave the Earth until his ascension into the clouds and beyond! Again, how this relates to the prisoner and "today", we may only know with time. That, my friends, I'm sure we will soon enough.


Lux, Vita, Amor

RS

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-- Aristotle (384-322 BC)


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Morning RS,

The ONLY genuine and irrevocable proof of the Urantia revelation is in living its teachings. They are true if they bring you closer to understanding and loving Father God and Jesus, false if they take you away. You won't know with certainty until you have applied and given them a fair chance, notwithstanding other's opinions and experiences, or declarations from previous revelations.

Good reading, learning, discerning, Rick


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p507:3 44:7.2 Beauty, rhythm, and harmony are intellectually associated and spiritually akin. Truth, fact, and relationship are intellectually inseparable and associated with the philosophic concepts of beauty. Goodness, righteousness, and justice are philosophically interrelated and spiritually bound up together with living truth and divine beauty.


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p507:4 44:7.3 Cosmic concepts of true philosophy, the portrayal of celestial artistry, or the mortal attempt to depict the human recognition of divine beauty can never be truly satisfying if such attempted creature progression is ununified. These expressions of the divine urge within the evolving creature may be intellectually true, emotionally beautiful, and spiritually good; but the real soul of expression is absent unless these realities of truth, meanings of beauty, and values of goodness are unified in the life experience of the artisan, the scientist, or the philosopher.


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Dear Solis (RS),

I am happy that you are here, and happy that you are asking questions. And above all, I am happy for you that you have found The Urantia Book. Welcome!!!

There is a great body of work in Scripture. Jesus himself referred to Scripture many, many times. He memorized great passages of it as a Hebrew student, and used it extensively in his ministry. But, he was always careful to use only those parts of Scripture which were in harmony with his revelation of the Father, and he counseled against putting too much stock into ALL of Scripture.

Here's a lengthy, but very illuminating story of a talk Jesus had with Nathaniel about Scripture:

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http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1411#U159_4_1 And then went Jesus over to Abila, where Nathaniel and his associates labored. Nathaniel was much bothered by some of Jesus' pronouncements which seemed to detract from the authority of the recognized Hebrew scriptures. Accordingly, on this night, after the usual period of questions and answers, Nathaniel took Jesus away from the others and asked: "Master, could you trust me to know the truth about the Scriptures? I observe that you teach us only a portion of the sacred writings—the best as I view it—and I infer that you reject the teachings of the rabbis to the effect that the words of the law are the very words of God, having been with God in heaven even before the times of Abraham and Moses. What is the truth about the Scriptures?" When Jesus heard the question of his bewildered apostle, he answered:

p1767:4 159:4.2 "Nathaniel, you have rightly judged; I do not regard the Scriptures as do the rabbis. I will talk with you about this matter on condition that you do not relate these things to your brethren, who are not all prepared to receive this teaching. The words of the law of Moses and the teachings of the Scriptures were not in existence before Abraham. Only in recent times have the Scriptures been gathered together as we now have them. While they contain the best of the higher thoughts and longings of the Jewish people, they also contain much that is far from being representative of the character and teachings of the Father in heaven; wherefore must I choose from among the better teachings those truths which are to be gleaned for the gospel of the kingdom.

p1767:5 159:4.3 "These writings are the work of men, some of them holy men, others not so holy. The teachings of these books represent the views and extent of enlightenment of the times in which they had their origin. As a revelation of truth, the last are more dependable than the first. The Scriptures are faulty and altogether human in origin, but mistake not, they do constitute the best collection of religious wisdom and spiritual truth to be found in all the world at this time.

p1767:6 159:4.4 "Many of these books were not written by the persons whose names they bear, but that in no way detracts from the value of the truths which they contain. If the story of Jonah should not be a fact, even if Jonah had never lived, still would the profound truth of this narrative, the love of God for Nineveh and the so-called heathen, be none the less precious in the eyes of all those who love their fellow men. The Scriptures are sacred because they present the thoughts and acts of men who were searching for God, and who in these writings left on record their highest concepts of righteousness, truth, and holiness. The Scriptures contain much that is true, very much, but in the light of your present teaching, you know that these writings also contain much that is misrepresentative of the Father in heaven, the loving God I have come to reveal to all the worlds.

p1768:1 159:4.5 "Nathaniel, never permit yourself for one moment to believe the Scripture records which tell you that the God of love directed your forefathers to go forth in battle to slay all their enemies—men, women, and children. Such records are the words of men, not very holy men, and they are not the word of God. The Scriptures always have, and always will, reflect the intellectual, moral, and spiritual status of those who create them. Have you not noted that the concepts of Yahweh grow in beauty and glory as the prophets make their records from Samuel to Isaiah? And you should remember that the Scriptures are intended for religious instruction and spiritual guidance. They are not the works of either historians or philosophers.

p1768:2 159:4.6 "The thing most deplorable is not merely this erroneous idea of the absolute perfection of the Scripture record and the infallibility of its teachings, but rather the confusing misinterpretation of these sacred writings by the tradition-enslaved scribes and Pharisees at Jerusalem. And now will they employ both the doctrine of the inspiration of the Scriptures and their misinterpretations thereof in their determined effort to withstand these newer teachings of the gospel of the kingdom. Nathaniel, never forget, the Father does not limit the revelation of truth to any one generation or to any one people. Many earnest seekers after the truth have been, and will continue to be, confused and disheartened by these doctrines of the perfection of the Scriptures.

p1768:3 159:4.7 "The authority of truth is the very spirit that indwells its living manifestations, and not the dead words of the less illuminated and supposedly inspired men of another generation. And even if these holy men of old lived inspired and spirit-filled lives, that does not mean that their words were similarly spiritually inspired. Today we make no record of the teachings of this gospel of the kingdom lest, when I have gone, you speedily become divided up into sundry groups of truth contenders as a result of the diversity of your interpretation of my teachings. For this generation it is best that we live these truths while we shun the making of records.

p1768:4 159:4.8 "Mark you well my words, Nathaniel, nothing which human nature has touched can be regarded as infallible. Through the mind of man divine truth may indeed shine forth, but always of relative purity and partial divinity. The creature may crave infallibility, but only the Creators possess it.

p1768:5 159:4.9 "But the greatest error of the teaching about the Scriptures is the doctrine of their being sealed books of mystery and wisdom which only the wise minds of the nation dare to interpret. The revelations of divine truth are not sealed except by human ignorance, bigotry, and narrow-minded intolerance. The light of the Scriptures is only dimmed by prejudice and darkened by superstition. A false fear of sacredness has prevented religion from being safeguarded by common sense. The fear of the authority of the sacred writings of the past effectively prevents the honest souls of today from accepting the new light of the gospel, the light which these very God-knowing men of another generation so intensely longed to see.

p1769:1 159:4.10 "But the saddest feature of all is the fact that some of the teachers of the sanctity of this traditionalism know this very truth. They more or less fully understand these limitations of Scripture, but they are moral cowards, intellectually dishonest. They know the truth regarding the sacred writings, but they prefer to withhold such disturbing facts from the people. And thus do they pervert and distort the Scriptures, making them the guide to slavish details of the daily life and an authority in things nonspiritual instead of appealing to the sacred writings as the repository of the moral wisdom, religious inspiration, and the spiritual teaching of the God-knowing men of other generations."

p1769:2 159:4.11 Nathaniel was enlightened, and shocked, by the Master's pronouncement. He long pondered this talk in the depths of his soul, but he told no man concerning this conference until after Jesus' ascension; and even then he feared to impart the full story of the Master's instruction.


Finally, consider this:

Quote:
http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=1378#U126_3_8Jesus had an unerring ability for the recognition of truth, and truth he never hesitated to embrace, no matter from what source it appeared to emanate.


It seems important to try and get over the fear that surrounds Scripture - that if we don't believe every word, that we are somehow in danger...I think Jesus had the right idea.


Last edited by maryjo606 on Sat Jan 17, 2009 9:28 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Good posts Solis... I have no problem with you cautiously taking this a step at a time. For now the only comment I have is where you said "My only problem with it is, too many people take it as it is without second thought, ONLY because it answers questions which are so dire needed in the human mind." I've been around the book for a while and in that time I've never met anyone taking the book without second thought -- as a revelation its purpose is to shake the foundations of one's belief and one's understanding of reality. It has shaken each of us just as it will shake you if you continue with your reading. No one eases into TUB like slipping into a nice warm tub. It's more the shock one gets when jumping naked into a hole chopped into the ice.

Might I suggest you go to our home page and from there take the "How The Urantia Book Changed My Life" link... it's at
http://www.truthbook.com/changed/index.cfm
and you'll see what I mean.

Best wishes,
Larry


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p1732:4 155:6.11 Never forget there is only one adventure which is more satisfying and thrilling than the attempt to discover the will of the living God, and that is the supreme experience of honestly trying to do that divine will. And fail not to remember that the will of God can be done in any earthly occupation. Some callings are not holy and others secular. All things are sacred in the lives of those who are spirit led; that is, subordinated to truth, ennobled by love, dominated by mercy, and restrained by fairness— justice. The spirit which my Father and I shall send into the world is not only the Spirit of Truth but also the spirit of idealistic beauty.


Last edited by Bonita on Sun Mar 22, 2009 7:22 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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RS wrote:
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I found this book about a month ago, bought it, and have read only a portion of it, loving every bit, until actually GETTING on this forum realizing I'm not the only one questioning things..I thought to myself "what am I doing?...taking everything in the book as if it were true.". What motive was allowing me to believe everything, just because it sounded right?


RS

I was thinking like you when I started reading the book. I guess almost everyone of us here were like you and I think that is the normal reaction of a real truthseeker. While I was reading the UB, I was also reading what other people are saying about it. I read some writings of critics and detractors trying to debunk the claims of the book. But I thought I had to find out for myself what is the truth. I continued reading the book until I finished it for the first time. Now, I am 100% convinced that this book is what it claims to be - the fifth epochal revelation. Now, you also said you want to believe in the book and my only advise to you is read the whole book.


Ysmael


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Thanks everyone for your responses. They are appreciated. But I would like to continue the dialogue, for better understanding, and/or emanating of minds.

Iris, on your response you said "What makes you so sure that the destiny of your soul depends on what you read?". Here's my answer..

The destiny of my soul isn't dependent on what I read. I could read fictional books all day and not attatch my soul to it. The issues evolve when we allow any idea or set of ideas to start forming our processes of thought. Our mind is like a lamp that leads us...whatever we think, read, watch, or experience influences our mind, and eventually our philosophy and destiny. If, for instance, I was exposed to parents that lived and worked travelling a good bit, more than likely my profession in life would have something to do with travel, or at least incorporating it into my life in some way or another. If children watch certain television shows on tv, they start reacting (pretending) they are the character...again this goes back to child psychology and how sometimes we mimic this behavior as adults.

Faith is very defined however by itself, if we just look. If I read a book, and I KNOW it's fictional, I don't attatch this Faith to it no matter how real it may sound. On the contrary, if I read the Bible, I know for a fact, through Faith, that it is true. And in that moment that I decide something is true, at that definitive moment, I unmistakenably attach this Faith to what I am reading. It's almost as if Faith is an arm from our soul that can reach out and grab something of true worth. It is, nonetheless, a choice made by us, and in our minds to use Faith when and how we do. Therefore, yes, we are responsible for what we read and believe, and which leads us to the right or wrong path.

As I stated before, I had studied Thelemicism at one point. I even was spiritually led by the enemy, and by his words. Why? Because his words were so prolifically entertaining! They were not right, wrong, true or false. He, somehow or another, managed to tell me to my face, through his words, that he was actually lying to me, but that these lies were the truth. To some extent I believed wholly, but luckily I came to my senses. What does this prove?...That there is indeed the possibility of having a Spirit, or spirit, within the words we read. What does this also mean? That there are those spirits designed to make you so entertained by your own beliefs that you intentionally force yourself to forget reality!

I have seen many faiths, some evil, some good, and some intentionally indifferent. The one thing I have noticed in many is how we all have faith in something. The ancients used to believe in various gods, which we know is rediculous, yet they were so intellectually evolved that even today we, thousands of years later, can't understand how they managed to build what they built, or know the things they knew by calculating the stars. What does this say? That even if you are the smartest and most evolved groups of people, you still can be dead wrong! Which tells us also that even if something sounds completely correct, it can be absolutely incorrect.

Again, how this relates to the UB is up to each and every one of us. I look at the book and find it a great work of either truth or lies. The decision is dire, and we must take it as it is. As for using the things in the UB in real life and then seeing how they turn out, I'm not sure I would be satisfied with such a way of going about it. I mean, yea, I can make up a book for myself that says I should have ten wives..and that would definately be of my liking, and would definately be a nice way to live..

In conclusion, yes, I will continue to read this book, and just maybe until I finish it. What I think it will allow me?..A different set of eyes for sure. But the question is am I willing to trade my eyes of tested Faith for the new eyes of chance?..We will all be judged soon enough, and we will all nkow whether or not what we believe is true I suppose.

But, ...what if it's wrong?..

Lux, Vita, Amor,

RS

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The least initial deviation from the truth is multiplied later a thousandfold.
-- Aristotle (384-322 BC)


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