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 Post subject: A question for skeptics
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If William S Sadler didn't believe in the Urantia Book as a revelation, why did he go to his deathbed saying that he was ready for the morontial worlds? Was he a liar even in death? It's worth thinking about.

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Yoder777 wrote:
If William S Sadler didn't believe in the Urantia Book as a revelation, why did he go to his deathbed saying that he was ready for the morontial worlds? Was he a liar even in death? It's worth thinking about.


Who said Sadler didn't believe in the Urantia Book?

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I hope people aren't mistaking my original question. Obviously, I asked a rhetorical question for skeptics. As in, if he didn't believe, why did he take it to his deathbed? The title of the thread should give that away, "a question for skeptics."

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I find it interesting that skeptic Martin Gardner identifies Wilfred Kellogg as the sleeping subject. If the Urantia Book were not an authentic revelation, why would there need to be the sleeping subject as a conduit for the revelation?

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This is the actual quote from Sadler at his death:

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The transition from this world to the next is very easy. There is no pain. It is easy to leave the pains of this world for the pleasures of the next, and I am going to enjoy every moment of it. I am very conscious of everything that is going on here tonight. I could go on visiting with you for hours but it would be no use. The chapter is closed. The last lines have ', been written; the book is finished. This world is very real, 'but the next one is much more real.104
http://urantia-book.org/archive/history/sadlbio1.htm

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Yoder,

Your question was not rhetorical at all. It was a question based on an assumed fact, implying that Dr Sadler is a liar for saying something a believer in UB would say but actually not a believer. What made you think that Dr Sadler was not a UB believer?


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YSMAEL wrote:
Yoder,

Your question was not rhetorical at all. It was a question based on an assumed fact, implying that Dr Sadler is a liar for saying something a believer in UB would say but actually not a believer. What made you think that Dr Sadler was not a UB believer?


Please re-read the original question:

If William S Sadler didn't believe in the Urantia Book as a revelation, why did he go to his deathbed saying that he was ready for the morontial worlds? Was he a liar even in death?

I didn't write given the fact that Sadler didn't believe in the Urantia Book as a revelation...

I think skeptics should be able to answer why he would take it to his deathbed if he didn't believe the revelation to be true.

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Okay, Yoder. The only logical reason why Dr Sadler said that is because he believed the UB as a revelation. Now, may I ask, do you think Dr Sadler did not believe the UB as a revelation?


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Why is it so hard for you to figure out that a rhetorical question for skeptics is not an assumption that Sadler was lying? It's like talking to a brick wall.

We all have to come to grips with the fact that either the revelation is authentic or Sadler died a liar. He didn't leave any middle ground.

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Some skeptics have claimed the sleeping subject never existed and that it was just a clever way for Sadler to cover up his own authorship of the papers. Skeptics often ask why the original handwritten manuscripts and the typed copies were destroyed if Sadler had nothing to hide. How do we answer this question of why they were destroyed?

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This was written by Kwan Choi, a trustee of the Urantia Foundation, in answer to my questions:

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I have no interest in converting skeptics, but if you are on the fence weighing the validity of various evidences, I will offer a little.

There are people who say Jesus never existed and Holocaust never happened.

The SS was, I hear, a stock broker or speculator or something like that in Chicago. I tried to read Sadler's books, but they never aroused my interest; they were boring. I could not put down the UB. They were not written by the same writer.

Since the SS was mumbling during his sleep, I think Sadler needed a stenographer (Christy). Ordinary people cannot write fast enough.

The first stage is the conversion from SS' sayings into stenographic notes, which ordinary people cannot read. In the second stage, these initial notes had to be typed by Christy (because she would be the best person to decode her notes; others could be hired, but there would be more errors) so that Forum members may read them. (Wieman lived very close to the Foundation, and I am reasonably sure he and Hartshorne visited the Foundation many times, but I was not there.)

I do not think Christy was a highly educated historian; she had a bunch of typos. For instance, Pantaenus (paper 195) was misspelled. Sadler did not recognize it either; he was not a historian. So it took a while before this typo was corrected.

The third stage was proofreading the typewritten pages; they were voluminous, especially during the second period till 1934 or 1935, which produced all 196 papers + Foreword.

If I had been in the same situation, I would have destroyed stenographic notes; the early typescripts would have been destroyed also because they had typos. After getting feedback from the Forum members, minor paragraphs were often added to illustrate or to give examples, and the Forum members read revised papers.

The fourth stage was to convert the typewritten text to plates to be used for printing. They were told to destroy the copies of these plates. (The finished plates had been preserved for a while, but destroyed in the end, I think.)

Fortunately, some of the copies with proof reader's marks were not destroyed. A woman was a proof reader, and Kellogg was the final approver. When typos were found, they had to patch up some portions and make patch plates.

More than 10 years ago, I had a chance to read the Foreword, plus the first two parts (up to p648) of these copies of early plates. They were dated by proofreaders. I personally verified all such pages with typos and the patch up pages with correct spelling, dated 1944.

Whether these copies are destroyed since or not, I do not know. I had compiled all the typos and had written an article about these corrections, but it is unpublished.

Is this convincing?

Kwan


A response like this helps to reinforce my belief in the Urantia Book. It's not claiming the Urantia Book to be a perfect revelation and it even admits the possibility of there being some minor human contributions to the text. At the same time, it emphasizes the sleeping subject as a conduit for celestial beings in a manner similar to the readings of Edgar Cayce.

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If you look at the church fathers, especially the hesychasts, spiritual truth was not found through logical argumentation but in the personal experience of prayer and meditation. It's very different from the Cartesian understanding of truth that Westerners forced on the world. In the same token, the truth of the Urantia Book can only be verified in one's personal experience. As long as there is no unequivocal proof against it as a revelation, that's how people will come to its truth.

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Okay brother Yoder, I think I understand where you are coming from. Have a nice day.


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I personally find it more reasonable to believe that the Urantia Papers were dictated through the mouth of the sleeping subject, in a manner similar to the readings of Edgar Cayce, or automatically written by his hand, than the presumption that they magically appeared out of nothing.

Unlike channelers and mediums, the sleeping subject didn't self-induce his sleeping state through which the celestials would communicate. He showed little interest in what was communicated while awake. It's likely that the celestials communicated through his Thought Aduster, bypassing his human mind in the process.

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Yoder777 wrote:
I personally find it more reasonable to believe that the Urantia Papers were dictated through the mouth of the sleeping subject, in a manner similar to the readings of Edgar Cayce, or automatically written by his hand, than the presumption that they magically appeared out of nothing.


If so, it would follow that Dr Sadler was a liar after all. He explicitly denied, in writing, that the process by which the papers were materialized "in any way paralleled or impinged upon" automatic writing or automatic speech.

Also, why do you say that Dr Sadler talked on his deathbed about morontia in the next world when the passage you quoted makes no mention of it? His mention of "the next world" isn't something that only a UB believer would say.

I don't doubt that Dr Sadler believed in the UB but his last words don't appear to mention it specifically at all.

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