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 Post subject: Dates and Timelines
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This is more a question than a skeptic's complaint but I felt this might be the better forum.

Two items will suffice to make my point I think. The first is that the Urantia book states the age of universe as at least one order of magnitude larger than what we now know to be accurate. Each scientific revision seems to very slightly shrink, not expand this age. The popular answer seems to be that the "Big Bang Theory" has some unexplained features and thus it may be revised later to agree with TUB. At the time of the transcription of the Urantia book, the astronomical hypothesis was that we lived in a "steady state" universe of unimaginable, possibly infinite, age. Albert Einstein concurred with this belief earlier in his career and even created a "cosmological constant" to fudge newer data so that it would fit the model. He later described that as the greatest mistake of his career. The Urantia Book dates only make sense under that hypothesis, which has now been thoroughly discarded.

The second item is exemplified by the quote from The Urantia Book 124.6.1 where the Feast of Passover is stated to have fallen on Saturday, April 9th, AD 7. Objectively, April 9th, AD 7 was indeed Saturday but it certainly wasn't Passover. Passover occurs on 14 Nissan which is on or near the full moon. The full moon that month was on April 20th and the astronomical new moon was on April 6th, just 3 days before the date stated in TUB as Passover. Given that the Jewish religion of that day (and the Muslim religion of today) measure the start of the month with the observed new moon, it is most likely that the Passover was on April 21st. This isn't conjecture or theory, this is observable fact. There is just no way around the fact that the date is wrong. Compounding the problem is that Passover was on April 9th in 8 AD. It is almost as if the author, while reading from the astronomical table, let his finger slip.

How is one to deal with these kind of discrepancies, first, those that have been shown to be inaccurate but can't be proved as fact, and then those that are inaccurate and can be proved. The stories are lovely and compelling but how can one put his or her faith in them?


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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You don't put your faith in stories, any stories, even revelations. You put your faith in God. The stories are there to establish beliefs, which are the stairs upon which faith climbs to the One reality worth seeking.

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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Hello Wdstk46,

Good to have you posting and your questions are appropriate here.

You ask, how does one put their faith in stories that are simply lovely and compelling but don't stand up to the facts. One doesn't if one is going to be "fact" driven. Obviously, any preconception can be given a sufficiently logical argument using whatever facts are at hand — it's possible to prove anything depending on what initial assumptions one chooses.

If one's religion is guided by discrepancy finding then one ends up with no religion at all. I don't know if the two issues you've brought up are discrepancies or not. Personally, my belief doesn't hinge on the "facts"... dates don't really capture my religious inclinations or spiritual yearnings to know truth. I have seen studies that have stated that all the dates are verifiable; if they were all bogus it wouldn't make that much difference to my relationship with the spiritual teachings of The Urantia Book because overall its cosmology and the stories that are "lovely and compelling" make so much more logical sense and ring so true that it doesn't matter what can be proven or disproved; that's how one has faith in something that's not generally accepted by other believers or unbelievers.

But to address your first point. First you've said the age of the universe stated by The Urantia Book is one order of magnitude larger than we now know to be accurate. Which of the multitude of chronologies that have been scientifically accepted since the early 1900s to today is the one we "know to be accurate?" What new chronology will next year bring? Science is constantly updating its knowledge and trading old facts for new ones. And to be accurate, TUB says that the universe is ageless, having no beginning in time.

Nonetheless, if you're interested in date discrepancies between TUB and what's currently scientifically accepted I'll once again refer to Chris Halvorson's study "The History of Life" which can be linked to from the "Spiritual Studies" section on Truthbook.com — the link is
http://urantiabook.org/archive/readers/ ... stlife.pdf

There's an abbreviated explanation of Chris's study available at the beginning of The Urantia Book Timeline which is located at
http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=2314 Basically it says that science can never validate revelation because science cannot recognize the spiritual underpinnings to reality.

All of us believe as we choose to believe. For me, what is disclosed in The Urantia Book makes better sense, is more enthralling and uplifting, gives more comfort and hope than anything else I've come across and that's basically why I choose to believe what it offers rather than anything far less compelling.

Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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I'd like to thank the folks that took the time to respond so promptly. You actually did answer my question. Unfortunately, revelation must be fact driven or it is just a fairy tale. I'll bet I could make up a great story too. Probably not as well thought out and as beautifully stated but every bit as valid.

Traditional Christianity suffered a crisis, which is still on going, as more and more sections of scripture were shown to be not the word of God but the surmising of humans. The fundamentalists just chose to bury their heads and state that science and archeology were wrong and must be censored (shades of the inquisition!) while the liberals recognized the problem but clung to the bible as, at least, an excellent model for life.

I think that the two current replies show that The Urantia Book falls into the latter category. A very spiritual but humanly derived statement of faith. I think one would do well to follow the example it sets but to hold it as a revelation is to invite skeptics to (rightly) claim that God has no grasp of the facts of the world he caused to be created.

I very much appreciate your comments and wish you all peace.


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Hello Wdstk46,

Quite possibly you could make up a great story too. The world hungers for great stories and both great fiction and great non-fiction are filled with them. Figments are just that however; truth is truth; it's up to you to learn to discern between the two. No one here can convince you.

And true, "I think one would do well to follow the example it sets but to hold it as a revelation is to invite skeptics to (rightly) claim that God has no grasp of the facts of the world he caused to be created." We invite skeptics who search for truth with an open minded skepticism and are happy to be of whatever assistance we can in their search. Maybe The Urantia Book isn't for them -- God doesn't care. But to dismiss The Urantia Book as a revelation because one believes they've uncovered distortions in fact is first, giving oneself a giant ego pat on the back, and two, dismissing the thousands of intelligent and likewise intellectual individuals who have studied the book and actually do belive it to be exactly what it claims to be.

Best wishes,
Larry


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Wdstk46 wrote:
Quote:
The second item is exemplified by the quote from The Urantia Book 124.6.1 where the Feast of Passover is stated to have fallen on Saturday, April 9th, AD 7. Objectively, April 9th, AD 7 was indeed Saturday but it certainly wasn't Passover. Passover occurs on 14 Nissan which is on or near the full moon. The full moon that month was on April 20th and the astronomical new moon was on April 6th, just 3 days before the date stated in TUB as Passover. Given that the Jewish religion of that day (and the Muslim religion of today) measure the start of the month with the observed new moon, it is most likely that the Passover was on April 21st. This isn't conjecture or theory, this is observable fact. There is just no way around the fact that the date is wrong. Compounding the problem is that Passover was on April 9th in 8 AD. It is almost as if the author, while reading from the astronomical table, let his finger slip.



I’m sorry to interject here but I am the one now skeptical of the dates that you provided and the dating system you used to arrived at your dates. I don’t know if you have noticed that the dates in the Urantia Book are the actual corrected dates had the Gregorian calendar been used on those days. If you noticed Jesus was born on Aug 21, 7 B.C. How could Christ be born 7 years before his time? Think about it.


Ysmael


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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"Facts" can be manipulated to suit one's own purpose.
What rings true in your heart cannot.
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Last edited by slyde on Fri Nov 27, 2009 8:02 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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The microcosm of time that we have here is so wasted by those that try to find fault with those that try to seek the Truth. Granted we all have to persue our own path to the Truth, but to waste that time trying to disprove the beliefs of others seems a travesty.

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You don't put your faith in stories, any stories, even revelations. You put your faith in God. The stories are there to establish beliefs, which are the stairs upon which faith climbs to the One reality worth seeking.


Pretty much sums it up.

Continue searching brother Wdstk46, when you run out of ways to disprove what the Truth is, you will find it.

Peace to you.
MrBreez :D


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Wdstk46 wrote:
This is more a question than a skeptic's complaint but I felt this might be the better forum.

Two items will suffice to make my point I think. The first is that the Urantia book states the age of universe as at least one order of magnitude larger than what we now know to be accurate. Each scientific revision seems to very slightly shrink, not expand this age. The popular answer seems to be that the "Big Bang Theory" has some unexplained features and thus it may be revised later to agree with TUB. At the time of the transcription of the Urantia book, the astronomical hypothesis was that we lived in a "steady state" universe of unimaginable, possibly infinite, age. Albert Einstein concurred with this belief earlier in his career and even created a "cosmological constant" to fudge newer data so that it would fit the model. He later described that as the greatest mistake of his career. The Urantia Book dates only make sense under that hypothesis, which has now been thoroughly discarded.



Hi WD...

In response to your first point about the age of the universe. TUB states the Universe is approx. 1 Trillion years old (Paper 57). Current scientific theory states an age of approx. 14-15 billion years old. The latter age is based on observations of scientists, and uses the big bang model as the start of the universe. I know of a Cambridge professor who has a current theory that puts the age of the universe at 1 Trillion years old.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/science/2006/ ... n.universe

Additionally, the WMAP Survey of space states the radius of the observable universe is 75 Billion light years. That means that in 15 billion years (according to current big bang models) the observable universe expanded at 5X the speed of light. Further, the Hubble deep space picture shows fully formed galaxies where they expected to see nascent forming galaxies. So, obviously there are issues with the current theories on the age of the universe.

Yes, science is an objective practice, but unfortunately the practicioners of science are all too subjective in their conclusions. As recently evidenced by the "Climategate" e-mails detailing climatology scientists fudging their numbers to support their theories on global warming.

As others have said, including TUB, it is not a deal killer that there are scientific theories in TUB that don't gibe with current theories. They are either there as being based on general knowledge at the time, or they are truly correct and will receive full vindication when science catches up to TUB.

I certainly hope that material realities do not hinder your search for the truth about God and the Universe. TUB states that religion and science will always be in conflict with each other as long as the mindset's of the scientists/religionists remain closed.

Quote:
132:1:4 The materialistic scientist and the extreme idealist are destined always to be at loggerheads. This is not true of those scientists and idealists who are in possession of a common standard of high moral values and spiritual test levels. In every age scientists and religionists must recognize that they are on trial before the bar of human need. They must eschew all warfare between themselves while they strive valiantly to justify their continued survival by enhanced devotion to the service of human progress. If the so-called science or religion of any age is false, then must it either purify its activities or pass away before the emergence of a material science or spiritual religion of a truer and more worthy order.


Good luck in your journey.

Peace and God Bless.

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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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.


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In response to your first point about the age of the universe. TUB states the Universe is approx. 1 Trillion years old (Paper 57).



Hi Ben,

Would you please cite the paragraph?

Thx, Rick



.


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rick warren wrote:
.


Quote:
In response to your first point about the age of the universe. TUB states the Universe is approx. 1 Trillion years old (Paper 57).



Hi Ben,

Would you please cite the paragraph?

Thx, Rick.


Hi Rick,

57:1:3 I could have misread the passage, but it does say 987 billion years.

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I guess it depends on what universe you are talking about ... the grand universe, the superuniverse, the local universe or the universe between your ears.

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What CAN be said!
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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Here's the quote Ben,

...987,000,000,000 years ago associate force organizer and then acting inspector number 811,307 of the Orvonton series, traveling out from Uversa, reported to the Ancients of Days that space conditions were favorable for the initiation of materialization phenomena in a certain sector of the, then, easterly segment of Orvonton.... P.651 - §5

I don't think the Life Carrier meant to imply the Universe started then, just that the force organizer ventured out for an inspection. The various authors repeatedly assert the Universe, with a capital U, is without end or beginning, no?

Thx, Rick

PS. The thing that awe-struck me is the next paragraph that suggests it only took 87 billion years to get the permit to start work. Puts a different time scale on it...

...900,000,000,000 years ago the Uversa archives testify, there was recorded a permit issued by the Uversa Council of Equilibrium to the superuniverse government authorizing the dispatch of a force organizer and staff to the region previously designated by inspector number 811,307. The Orvonton authorities commissioned the original discoverer of this potential universe to execute the mandate of the Ancients of Days calling for the organization of a new material creation.... P.651 - §6


.


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 Post subject: Re: Dates and Timelines
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Hi --

You might be interested in the UB timeline at http://www.truthbook.com/index.cfm?linkID=2314 which chronicles the beginning of life in our local universe and follows up to present day.

Larry


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