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Greetings fellow brothers and sisters.

It's been a little while since I have been on this forum site, three and a half years to be exact. And, as with all things, they have cycles and I suppose it has led me back here for a reason or another. So, as we were.

I have a question, particularaly one that will, again, question the validity of the UB. However, with this question, I'd like to offer a proposition, similar to a classroom group activity for the sake of experimentation. I'm not sure anyone in the forums have offered such an activity yet, but I think it will be fun, interesting, and either proving or disproving (for some) to, again, the significance of the UB.

I call it Project Natal Manifesto, or PNM. It's an attempt to create a book that has the supposed significance the UB has, the complexities, and the similarities by way. Our goal would be to see if we can make it as believable as the UB, but assume we know nothing of it. The kicker is, we have to be the negative writers of the book, and by negative I mean that we assume that the writers made this book up using their educational, professional, and knowledge of their time. In other words, we would be given the task of writing a book (very small book, maybe no more than 50 pages) that we are to make so believable that no one could disprove it by way.

Basically, I will need a set of volunteers (hopefully, within the truthbook community) that will be willing to use their expertise - otherwise I'll need to find them in the anti-ub community, which I'd rather not do since I'm almost certain they'd be unwilling to play by the rules of fair game.

The first step is for me to ask this question: Do we know how many people played a role in the writing, or scribing, of the UB? If yes, how many, and what were their professions and/or roles in society? With this question asked, I can determine who exactly can help me, and if I'll need to take the steps to find these type of professionals outside of the UB community.

The key is to use exactly what the UB writers, or scribes, had when they wrote it (assuming they did), and then get those idividuals together to create such a work.

Now, before I go any further I would like to say I am for the UB, because I'd like to prove to myself such a work is true, and that the work of the UB isn't solely human. For me to do this, however, I need to take the steps to validate it by means I have to do so. I need to know if such a work could be recreated, and if it is possible to be as scrupulous as this work is by human hands.

At any rate, the first step is made. All I need is volunteers and help. Thank you.


lux, vita, amor,

RS

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Hi As-Above-So-Below.

I'll try and touch up on a few things in your reply before I go on to explain what it is I'm looking for in reference to volunteers.

In reply to the truth, I can't really say I'm looking for that, since many times the truth is something that's personal rather than factual, and/or subjective rather than objective. But what I am trying to do is prove or disprove, even if to just some degree, that the UB is as significant as people believe it is, or isn't, by the trascendental position it hails from and by its degree of literacy that many think can't be human.

So, in essence, my objective is a little more practical and a little less over-reaching - in that, I'm not seeking the impossible truth, instead I'm searching for validity by contrasting the UB against an example similar to it. Hopefully, that makes sense.

As far as the number of people that wrote it, wasn't there a group of people that got together to get in touch with these "authors"? I could be wrong but I'm pretty sure I read something about it at one time or another.

lux, vita, amor,

RS

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You can read a bushel and a peck of speculations about who did what, how it came about, why it came about, who wrote what, who said what, who did what to whom. Rather than base opinions on speculation and various agendas, anyone unsure of what transpired during the early 1900s and the reception of the Urantia revelation and who is sincerely interested in knowing and understanding that history from a factual perspective should spend some time with the Urantia Historical Society website...
www.ubhistory.org

Larry


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You would have better luck attempting to mimic the bible. The Urantia book is by far and away the most genious writing ever produced to human beings that it is an impossible task to mimic. But good luck anyways. You will have to predict hundreds of scientific discoverys that will happen 50-70 years from now as well, good luck with that as well and also not be wrong about any of them.

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Odd choice...the TUB community or the anti-TUB community? Not the non-TUB community? Isn't it the largest resource? So you wish to author a "Skeptics Book of Truth" to prove the FER is not what it claims to be but is, rather, a hoax or manipulation by re-creating its facsimile. I'm sure you'll find little support for either the project or it's intended purpose here but....best of luck to you in this enormous endevour and complete waste of time. For you nor any other can ever "prove" or "disprove" TUB and any such concern completely misses the point. Your dependence on facts is a weakness, not a strength. There are far more false facts accepted as truth than there are truths accepted as facts.

Facts and reality are NOT relative or subjective as you suggest....except of course within the primitive, temporal, mortal, limited brain/mind.....based on our very limited perspective and more limited context. That which lies within dimensionality cannot and will never discern the totality or the relative dimensionality of the totality being "perceived". To want the impossible is not unusual...very human indeed....but insane just the same. You can chase that tail around and around until you turn to butter if you will. Those who join you in this pointless and futile chase will tire of it eventually and come to TRUST the FACT of God and His endless love and mercy or reject all as false....and perhaps abandon those symbols and truths they cling to as their source of faith. Any one who has read the Book knows it is ONLY faith that brings progression and not "facts" or even truth....for faith IS the ONLY truth needed.

No one needs TUB to participate in this reality. Lucky for you. Lucky for us all. For if we had to comprehend the incomprehensible to receive mercy and participate in eternity and ascendency, then would we all be doomed. Perhaps your book should debunk love and forgiveness and mercy and God's very existance and infinity and eternity but I still don't know where you will get the facts and perspective to prove or disprove those either. Silly. Skepticism is fine for the skeptic but be very, very careful of your treatment of other's faith - regardless of the accuracy of its source. The destruction of another's faith IS a mortal sin...which you would know if you either read or believed TUB. May God give you the facts you require or the wisdom to get over it. Peace.


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Another odd aspect of your proposal is the book you would debunk by facsimile is so indifferent to your endeavor and your need of proof and fact. For TUB does not require your belief, nor mine, nor anyone's and does not ever or even request it -weird for any book or person desirous of deception and manipulation. Who is victim by their ignorance or disbelief? None. And who gains by the false belief of such "victims" of belief? None again. So, believe. Or disbelieve. The greatest lesson within the text is IT DOESN'T MATTER what you believe or I believe or most believe or none believe. And I do not need TUB to point out to you the smallness of our minds and our facts and our view compared to the totality of even physical space and time. And anyone, with a little basic logic and reason, can demonstrate how silly it is to depend on that smallness within time and space to even begin to prove eternity and infinity - that which is outside of or not within time and space but the other way around. Will you disprove that which cannot be perceived or even conceived?

TUB is a ministry of mercy and upliftment for those who may benefit from a far more complete perspective with far greater context for the very simple truths that much of humanity already knows as TRUE - There is one God overall, a single Source and Center of All that is and will be, Who loves all of us - totally and endlessly - and extends patient mercy to all and a progressive realization of Him and His Love to all who seek Him. Fear not and love one another. All will be well.

Now, which part of that do you wish to debunk? And what would be your substitute? For there are NO facts to dispute or verify that are relevant to what the Book has to say.....well......except for the FACT that many have tried and failed to discredit the incredibly complex science, cosmology, and historical details presented. Which is nice for one who is so weak, like me, that the points of context provided help validate even more the spiritual citizenship truths already "known" to my heart by faith and learned from so many sources, texts, and voices over the ages. Perhaps I misunderstand? Or perhaps your time would be better spent on more fruitful efforts.


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My Brother Jay,

I am glad to see you have returned. A refreshing break for you my friend?

Hopefully you have taken the time and given the UB a thorough reading. I can see by your recent posts that you are still having a problem as to the validity of the book and it’s authorship. Do not let this keep you from gleaning the truth it has to offer you in your personal relationship with Our Father.

Of the many statements you posted a few years ago, it seemed to suggest you were in search of truth, but there are also many contradictions.

Have you found the truth you seek?

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2664

Quotes from Jay:

(I could care less for Christianity as we know it today. I wouldn't even consider myself anything more than traveling mystic, traveling from one faith to another in search of the ultimate.

Not long ago, I was part of a secret organization, occult, if you will, and we actually studied this book of Revelation.The order made it's claims of what it meant, and or didn't mean, and it was striking. It was very complex an explanation, and it could be partially true. Will the general population ever understand or hear about this? No. But, it proves that there are those of us that know the power behind the Words of the Bible, even if we're not Christian. In addition, it also serves to prove that the Bible either has an ability to independently work it's evolution governed by some higher form, or that we humans have the ability to eventually evolve to a point that we can understand it's works. I believe the former, only because the human mind hasn't changed in many, many thousands of years, according to science.)

(As I stated before, I had studied Thelemicism at one point. I even was spiritually led by the enemy, and by his words. Why? Because his words were so prolifically entertaining! They were not right, wrong, true or false. He, somehow or another, managed to tell me to my face, through his words, that he was actually lying to me, but that these lies were the truth. To some extent I believed wholly, but luckily I came to my senses.)(The interesting thing with the Bible is (and I hate to make this about the Bible), it is a compilation of various prophets works. People have died for it and because of it. Saints have suffered, people have sacrificed themselves for it, etc. Here's the key..If you follow what it says, and it comes out to be wrong, God can't hold it against you because the PRICE!!! which the people of the Earth have payed to it has been enormous! To me, the Bible is like God, and the UB is like His son...if the latter is true. Why? On what grounds can we say the UB is equal to the books of the Bible? Has it been tested?..even a little? Maybe a little...Do you see what I'm getting at? If you believe there is a God, then you can't deny the books of the Bible. Therefore, how can we explain the differences in the Bible vs the UB?)



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I find it quite interesting that you are still trying to determine the validity of the UB if you have honestly read and tried to comprehend what truth it offers.

My previous quote to you:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=2742

(You seem like an intelligent person Jay from the many posts you have placed here at TruthBook, so I will ask you as your brother, to keep your heart open and continue reading the book and let the Spirit of Truth speak within you and discern for yourself if what you are reading is truthful to you. No one can convince you, by fact or reason, of anything you are not willing to accept as truth. The personal gain of truth is for your spiritual advancement, in your personal relationship with the Father of Creation.
The Urantia Book is not an absolute truth, the only absolute truth is our Father.)


I’m sure you have read these quotes before, but they may bring some new light to your thoughts after reading them a second time.

Paper 132 The Sojourn at Rome

3. Truth and Faith

1459.2) 132:3.2 Truth cannot be defined with words, only by living. Truth is always more than knowledge. Knowledge pertains to things observed, but truth transcends such purely material levels in that it consorts with wisdom and embraces such imponderables as human experience, even spiritual and living realities. Knowledge originates in science; wisdom, in true philosophy; truth, in the religious experience of spiritual living. Knowledge deals with facts; wisdom, with relationships; truth, with reality values.

Man tends to crystallize science, formulate philosophy, and dogmatize truth because he is mentally lazy in adjusting to the progressive struggles of living, while he is also terribly afraid of the unknown. Natural man is slow to initiate changes in his habits of thinking and in his techniques of living.

Revealed truth, personally discovered truth, is the supreme delight of the human soul; it is the joint creation of the material mind and the indwelling spirit. The eternal salvation of this truth-discerning and beauty-loving soul is assured by that hunger and thirst for goodness which leads this mortal to develop a singleness of purpose to do the Father's will, to find God and to become like him. There is never conflict between true knowledge and truth. There may be conflict between knowledge and human beliefs, beliefs colored with prejudice, distorted by fear, and dominated by the dread of facing new facts of material discovery or spiritual progress.



http://www.urantia.org/urantia-book-sta ... e-religion

1106.7) 101:2.8 Reason is the proof of science, faith the proof of religion, logic the proof of philosophy, but revelation is validated only by human experience.

As your brother, I love you Jay, but I question your true intent in the undertaking of this project and I agree with everyone who has taken the time to post their thoughts to you.

God Bless You My Brother

May you find the truth you seek

Jim :smile:

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Of all human knowledge, that which is of greatest value is to know the religious life of Jesus and how he lived it.


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Welcome back Jay !

How have you been.

I am newly back too (after about the same time of absence)


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Thank you Al, and bulldog. I'm very pleased to be back. :)

Van,

I will try my best to reply to your response in the most respectful way possible, and not to effect your beliefs. On that note, I personally don't believe I will be held responsible for your lack of faith in your paradigm if my project, i.e. experiment, proves worthy. Futhermore, any work I formulate will, in no way, have the ultimtate power to overturn your faith, or lack thereof. Therefore, I reiterate, I will not be held resonsible for your lack of faith, nor will I be hailed guilty by simply testing my own faith and the authenticity it hails itself held in contrast to something else.

That stated, I would also like to clarify that it is not my ultimate goal, nor direct goal for that matter, to turn anyone from this book, or alleged revelation. In fact, I'm trying to turn myself to it in the process, but I will not do so without analyzing it thoroughly, since my faith in my life is one of the most important keys to my total being, and I won't single guess myself and be satisfied therewith. Instead, I'll test everything in my faith time and time again until I can eliminate any doubt whatsoever from my mind. And in the end, my faith will resemble a polished sword without blemish. Of course, this is my own view.

As far as debunking the UB, I'm not interested. As I said earlier in the thread, I'm attempting to recreate what some say can't be done, which is to create a revelatory book that can make you or me believe it is true, but, as the author, knowing it isn't. This is interesting, since, if the author(s) of the book were falsely writing truth and aware thereof, I would be acting in their exact state-of-mind. No, it won't determine the truth either way, but from a personal standpoint it will either confirm it or not to some extent.

My concern I have is, why do we, or should we, believe a book solely just because (1) it sounds good to the ear? Does the validity of the UB come from us? Yes. But who verifies it and by what standard? Who steps in and says “Because of the complex literacy, and beautiful sounding words, we should believe this”? And with that said, who then says it’s okay to believe that guy? The sad thing is no one does. You believe it because of these reasons given above most likely.

You see, in contrast, I’ve always known of the Bible, and I believe it, for the most part. Why? For one, it’s part of my culture, my country, and 3,000 years of human practice, paradigm, history, etc. I’m not the only one that has believed it, and I wouldn’t be foolish to follow it if I were to follow anything by those reasons alone. With the UB, we don’t have any of that; it’s a completely new set of concepts with no history, no culture, and no one backing it except those of this generation. Why throw away almost everything I l believe, and so many others for so long, just because? Well, if I were careless, I would say because I find the statements the UB expresses pleasing to my senses, my previous concerns related to my faith, the afterlife, and the like. Interestingly enough, this is one of the bigger reasons I want to believe this book, and would like to add it to my own paradigm.

Could I believe this book not turning back and be happy with everything it says to me? Of course I could. Would it enhance my way of life by resting my mind that there are all these wonderful things in the after- life that I NOW happen to be aware of? Absolutely. By believing this book whole-heartedly, would my intelligence be improved by then knowing everything I learned in it would make me superior, humble or not, to those that don’t know? Maybe. But, my point is, what if it’s wrong and my previous paradigm right?
So, faith is at stake when you paradigm-shift, and it shouldn’t be a short-thought out decision, but one that is tested, tried, and really thought about over time. I respect those UB readers that have read it so long and still have decided to continue to do so, because I know that they must have really done this. That, in itself, gives this book credibility to me, since I know many UB readers are intelligent professionals, retirees, doctors, etc. If it weren’t for these, I probably wouldn’t even waste my time.

Ultimately, this book wasn’t wrote or composed in a day. Many years were had that resulted in this book. My attempt isn’t to replicate it completely. Instead, I would like to experiment with the idea by creating a smaller version that would take only a short amount of time, but enough time to thoroughly make sure everything in it matches up to everything else in case I knew others were to wish to criticize it someday.

lux, vita, amor,

RS

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Sol - Appreciate your concern and your measured and thoughtful response. It was not my faith alluded to nor do you need to trouble yourself with me. My faith is not new, small, tender, or brittle and what I believe is always subject to change based on new data and new capacity for data and new perspective for data context. My "beliefs" change by enlargement and correction and connection with every reading of TUB and the biblical parables and poetry and prayers and my Tao and Jimmy Buffet books too! I doubt any long time reader who has become believer would suffer much if it were proven that TUB is less than we believe - that is if we've been paying attention to what the FER has to say for none NEED the Book nor are any required specific beliefs. I too grew up a biblical son and student and my faith springs from the words of the Master therein, for even the bible well teaches the Jesusonian religion quite distinctly from both the Judaic and the Paulinian gods and beliefs. TUB merely expanded God and His Universe and His grace and love and mercy into exponentially greater perspective with equally enlarged points of context.

So no, you will never be responsible for me. But it was not MY warning about the mill stone and the lake. I misunderstood, evidently, the premise of your project - to accomplish or fail at recreating a facsimile of TUB for the purpose of guiding your own, apparently tender and tenuous, beliefs to prove or disprove that which cannot be proved or disproved. For once you depart from planetary history and our tiny solar system, there remains about 80% of the Book's content for which there simply is no knowledge repository from which to facsimilate nor dispute. Now a fact not in evidence is but a claim or allegation so about 80% of TUB is certainly potentially false, if only because there is no empirical evidence available (in this case possible) to verify or falsify. As would be the case for timelessness, eternity, infinity, 7 dimensions of the time and space within infinity and eternity, the number of worlds, the names of the multitudes of personalities and beings presented, the ascension progression, the TA, etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc., etc.

My issue with your proposal is not its threat to me or others or to TUB for pete's sake - its the obvious rediculousness, futility, impossibility, and pointlessness of such a proposition. TUB clearly teaches no one needs what you require of It - including you. Why want, or worse, need what you cannot have, indeed what no one can have - certainty of facts for belief in that which cannot be proven for faith, which as I recall is NOT based in fact at all. Do you have faith in God? Or in the certainty and power of love? How about God's love? How about Him as First Source and Center of love and creation? If so - WHY? Where are the facts to support the belief that could bring such faith to you? I fear for you and all others, who, like you believe nothing not proven and suffer for it with doubts and fears and cynicism and rejection of faith itself. Your project can only disappoint this craving and need you display.

I wish only the best for you in your quest and I too have tilted the windmill round and round over the decades so my greatest prayer for you is peace of mind and strength in spirit to find that which fills you with hope and a sublime contentment for the adventures to come.


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Solis, your problem is a common one and is reminiscent to me...

Why should we listen to or believe him? He's only a young man and unlearned as well... he didn't attend the schools. We are much older and wiser, formally educated, have devoted our lives to the Holy Scriptures which have been passed down through tradition by our fathers, their fathers, and our father's fathers. Scripture is tried and true, safe, meaningful, holy... and everyone else believes them to be so... there's safety in numbers. He says things with an assumed authority that are not in the scriptures, things no one else has ever before said, things that appear to be blasphemous. He is inciting the unlearned, they question our authority now at our meetings. He talks in complex riddles -- what does he mean? Why does he say "let him who has an ear hear?"

Many people are unable to drink from the new wineskins and actually prefer the leaky old ones.

Try substituting "Jesus" whenever your are thinking "Urantia Book" and perhaps you'll get a better grasp of the mental and spiritual dilemma being confronted. Those who followed Jesus 2,000 years ago weren't doing so just because his words sounded nice.

Best wishes,
Larry


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Good points Larry. I obviously lack Sol's intelligence since I found TUB dense and difficult....hardly ear honey. True, the more narrative Part IV and the History of Urantia were easier reads but I struggled through a couple of readings before, suddenly and amazingly, I got the cadence and rythm. Then I discovered the unique voices of the various authors. Then came the points of confirmation and repitition threaded throughout within the different, unique voices of the various authors. Then came comfort with the foreign names for unheard of life forms and personalities and places. Every reading made the Truth and Reality and the universes of time and space and those outside time and space BEGIN to converge and coalesce into a more complete wholeness, ever expanding inward and outward, until my head spinning dizziness made me go back to the Papers on prayer, and religion, and soul, and Jesus, and history until the spinning subsided enough to return to approaching the Whole rather than the parts of the whole.

I went through this for many years and many readings before getting beyond my regard for TUB as a fascinating book of truths that must certainly be fiction and human in origin to a belief that whatever it is, it is certainly NOT human in origin for no mind could conceive such complexities and write in so many different voices (some are downright funny in their irony and sarcasm while others are drier than grannie's toast) and so consistently repeat facts and relationships harmoniously throughout the text. This is true without the Spirit of Truth whispering and leading us into understanding....which is the more powerful force and guide over my own intellect (obviously). Still, every re-reading of any page brings new meanings and values to propel me forward in confident faith....in God and Love and Mercy and Eternity and Ascendent Survival.... all of which I believed before TUB ever found me.

I do not wish to dimminish anyone's faith but I find it incredible that people continue to "....strain at the gnats while swallowing camels whole." Especially those biblical brethern who have no problem with literalism in a book so full of contradiction, fantasy, fairy tales, historical and scientific falsehoods with books selected and published by a Roman emporer Popentate and edited by those in charge of the Inquisition and Crusades and the flat earth which the sun spins around. And these are them who find TUB unbelievable?! And yet is we who tell them FEAR NOT, we don't need to know or believe or do to receive God's love and mercy! God has us all covered. And we're the heretics.


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A good place to look is the new age section of a bookstore you will find plenty of people attempting to create their own revelations :). ACIM may be the most ambitous attempt. Or Neal Walsche's "Conversations with God".

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