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A clear message in TUB was very disconcerting and difficult for me. I've always had a love of and dependence upon facts and reason as the foundations of truth. Indeed, it was the inconsistancies and hypocracies of science, politics, and religion that drove me to become a seeker of Truth; something I expected to be rational, factual, inclusive, and knowable to the mind. The many sources of truths and fictions I encountered always disappointed in this quest for The Truth, the Universal Reality we all share. The TUB dismisses all such dependence on facts, physical reality; even more and better context and perspective do NOT lead to this Truth. Those acts motivated by hope and faith are the singular road and way to Truth. Seeking God and His will for our choices and acts IS the Truth as destination and as vehicle. Our transcendence does not depend on facts or understanding....but on acting as though we live in The Kingdom and know God's love for our own.

So, I remain surprised and slightly perplexed that falsehood of facts or perspective STILL can and does and has resulted in personal spiritual progress. And as we progress we gain insights by the ministering Spirits and our soul's pilot, the TA. Jesus' warning to all about destroying or even dimminishing another's faith was profound to me. Would not this include arguing the facts and fallacies of another's belief system which IS driving their faith experience? One can be "right" and be damned. One can be so "wrong" and yet progress in the Spirit. I know those religionists who led me in my youth were incorrect on so many levels, primitive and fear focused, seeking escape from damnation as much or more than seeking The Light and The Way. And yet it was there and by their teaching that I did find God and learn of His love and first became a faith Son and seeker of Truth. My need for factual certainty has transcended to an appreciation of the extrodanary power of faith itself, regardless of its source or factual accuracy. But it remains difficult to be indifferent to being right, I am so fond of it!

Still, TUB has brought a comfort and confidence and understanding I never had without it. Peace.


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I have the faith to know that all my questions and hearts desires will be answered in time.....one of my old mottos is...Good things come to those who wait. and I have this to be true for me:)

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The TUB dismisses all such dependence on facts, physical reality; even more and better context and perspective do NOT lead to this Truth


Not really, the u.b always seems to be preaching a cosmic approach (science/facts included as 1 of the 3 main viewpoints that must be unified) in order to understand truth and reality.

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1. The mathematical or logical recognition of the uniformity of physical causation.
2. The reasoned recognition of the obligation of moral conduct.
3. The faith-grasp of the fellowship worship of Deity, associated with the loving service of humanity.


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16:6.5 The cosmic mind unfailingly responds (recognizes response) on three levels of universe reality. These responses are self-evident to clear-reasoning and deep-thinking minds. These levels of reality are:

1. Causation—the reality domain of the physical senses, the scientific realms of logical uniformity, the differentiation of the factual and the nonfactual, reflective conclusions based on cosmic response. This is the mathematical form of the cosmic discrimination.
2. Duty—the reality domain of morals in the philosophic realm, the arena of reason, the recognition of relative right and wrong. This is the judicial form of the cosmic discrimination.
3. Worship—the spiritual domain of the reality of religious experience, the personal realization of divine fellowship, the recognition of spirit values, the assurance of eternal survival, the ascent from the status of servants of God to the joy and liberty of the sons of God. This is the highest insight of the cosmic mind, the reverential and worshipful form of the cosmic discrimination.

16:6.9 These scientific, moral, and spiritual insights, these cosmic responses, are innate in the cosmic mind, which endows all will creatures. The experience of living never fails to develop these three cosmic intuitions; they are constitutive in the self-consciousness of reflective thinking. But it is sad to record that so few persons on Urantia take delight in cultivating these qualities of courageous and independent cosmic thinking.


Quote:
Civilizations are unstable because they are not cosmic; they are not innate in the individuals of the races. They must be nurtured by the combined contributions of the constitutive factors of man--science, morality, and religion. Civilizations come and go, but science, morality, and religion always survive the crash. ~ The Urantia Book, (16:9.5)



Matter-energy is recognized by the mathematical logic of the senses; mind-reason intuitively knows its moral duty; spirit-faith (worship) is the religion of the reality of spiritual experience. These three basic factors in reflective thinking may be unified and co-ordinated in personality development, or they may become disproportionate and virtually unrelated in their respective functions. But when they become unified, they produce a strong character consisting in the correlation of a factual science, a moral philosophy, and a genuine religious experience. And it is these three cosmic intuitions that give objective validity, reality, to man's experience in and with things, meanings, and values. ~ The Urantia Book, (16:6.10)

16:9.9 Self-consciousness is in essence a communal consciousness: God and man, Father and son, Creator and creature. In human self-consciousness four universe-reality realizations are latent and inherent:

1. The quest for knowledge, the logic of science.
2. The quest for moral values, the sense of duty.
3. The quest for spiritual values, the religious experience.
4. The quest for personality values, the ability to recognize the reality of God as a personality and the concurrent realization of our fraternal relationship with fellow personalities.

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StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Boom - I did not mean to suggest that facts and reality are unimportant...they are especially important to me. 99.99% of our ascendency progress will depend on and result from greater context (facts) and perspective of and experience with those facts. Knowledge is power and brings confidence and provides direction and eliminates falsehoods...all important. But the first .01% of mortal survival does NOT depend on facts or reality (at least not ours). TUB clearly teaches this to be true. Yes, progress in the Spirit is accelerated by knowledge of reality. But the thread is about why some believe what they do and how does that "belief" system matter?

My only point is that those false beliefs do NOT matter as they do NOT prevent responding to and giving love nor in hearing the TA and responding in our ignorant, primitive, and misguided mortal ways. TUB and the context/perspective it provides me is extrordinary and vital to my sense of direction, purpose, and glorious future adventure in eternity (I feel like I've got insider information or a cheat sheet - a real advantage to me)!! But this goes to the heart of religionist conversions and creeds and "salvation" from damnation, all of which is wrong. We cannot be "saved" by what we know or don't know for we are not damned to begin with. This does not make Truth insignificant or without meaning. The context I speak of is mortality survival and where seekers go seeking more than they know, whether true or false - for it is the faith act of responding to God's voice and seeking that is the first FACT/ACT of ascendency. Is survival or non-survival dependent on facts or knowledge? I believe not. Still. But I am teachable. Peace.


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Of all the things that are explained in the UB, the one that apparently looks hidden in the Urantia Book is its explanation to astrology and other unexplained human observations involving phenomena such as astral projections, channelling and the human nature according to the zodiac. While looking at it to the details, I get the perception that the authors somehow deal the topic in an indirect manner while outrightly rejecting most of those observed things as shamanism [ in reality they are right if one is to go by the percentage of falsehood in such things!] Perhaps, these are things not of importance for ordinary mortals for spiritual progress and in realizing God's love ! So, I feel they have omitted out these in the larger interests of human race !

Recently I came across the channelled revelations that were received by James Padgett some time during the Urantia Papers were also in the process of receipt. Though I have not gone through it fully, I find some striking similarities as well as dissimilarities. They are enough to create confusions in the minds of common people. Yet they are instigators of mind for the curious ones.

I would like to hear the views of those of the latter kind.


All of these things are covered in the Urantia Book. I have studied this topic alot. Here are a few points I have found in the u.b about this topic.

1.The book uses the word psychic illusion 3 times. So they are saying that this experience is possible.
2. This sentence in the U.B is interesting.
Quote:
"they really saw him; they were not the self-deceived victims of visions or hallucinations."
This sentence is interesting in that it leads to reason that it is possible to actually have a self induced vision or hallucination. So someone can be genuinely sincere in thinking they are contacting someone in the spiritual world but can be decieved by their own minds.
3.
Quote:
Jesus had no subconscious delusions or superconscious illusions
So again they say it is possible to have a delusion or illusionary experience.

Dr.Sadler attempted to cover this topic in his book "mind at mischief". Than there is paper which covers the topic of those who fall victim to their own distortions or whom are just really ignorant (Paper 90 Shamanism — Medicine Men and Priests).

At the same time the U.B does not say that 100 percent of all strange experiences are false, because they also talk about a few strange things that have happened to people that is just incredible. However it would seem that 99.9 percent of experiences that we are exposed to are just falsehoods.

I do like how they explain that the sleeping subject had one of the most experienced thought adjusters on the planet and that he also had a fortunate reaction to having an advanced thought adjuster which allowed for these papers to be transmited. So basically he was probably the only human being on the planet at the time capable of safely being a conduit for these papers. Alot of T.Mers egnore this tidbit of information and assume that anyone can just transmit a revelation and that these revelations pop out every few days from random people. LOL

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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fanofVan wrote:
Boom - I did not mean to suggest that facts and reality are unimportant...they are especially important to me. 99.99% of our ascendency progress will depend on and result from greater context (facts) and perspective of and experience with those facts. Knowledge is power and brings confidence and provides direction and eliminates falsehoods...all important. But the first .01% of mortal survival does NOT depend on facts or reality (at least not ours). TUB clearly teaches this to be true. Yes, progress in the Spirit is accelerated by knowledge of reality. But the thread is about why some believe what they do and how does that "belief" system matter?

My only point is that those false beliefs do NOT matter as they do NOT prevent responding to and giving love nor in hearing the TA and responding in our ignorant, primitive, and misguided mortal ways. TUB and the context/perspective it provides me is extrordinary and vital to my sense of direction, purpose, and glorious future adventure in eternity (I feel like I've got insider information or a cheat sheet - a real advantage to me)!! But this goes to the heart of religionist conversions and creeds and "salvation" from damnation, all of which is wrong. We cannot be "saved" by what we know or don't know for we are not damned to begin with. This does not make Truth insignificant or without meaning. The context I speak of is mortality survival and where seekers go seeking more than they know, whether true or false - for it is the faith act of responding to God's voice and seeking that is the first FACT/ACT of ascendency. Is survival or non-survival dependent on facts or knowledge? I believe not. Still. But I am teachable. Peace.


Yea I see what you mean. The u.b definetely states that you can enter the kingdom of heaven with just a small flicker of faith and nothing else. However the u.b also states that knowledge which is fact is paramount to growing into spiritual adulthood which is what god requires if we are to stay in the kingdom.

Quote:
193.2.2 You may enter the kingdom as a child, but the Father requires that you grow up, by grace, to the full stature of spiritual adulthood

_________________
StrongcharactersRnotderivedfromnotdoingwrongbutratherfrom
actuallydoingrightUnselfishnesisthebadgeofhumangreatnes
Thehighestlevelsofselfrealizationareatainedbyworshipandservice
Thehapyandefectivepersonismotivatednotbyfearofwrongdoingbutby
loveofrightdoing


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Boom - GREAT!! I was sure we were together on this issue. This IS an issue - of what/which "progression" are we discussing? I certainly agree that far more is required for EACH succession of Circle and effort and knowledge must expand, perhaps exponentially, for each progression. Indeed, I believe TUB teaches there is no stasis at any time....we are either moving toward or away from Truth and Light day by day, decision by decision. My position should not be confused with indolence or complacency...."to them which much is given, much is expected". The Master's parables of the talents and the lamp oil and the treasure in the field ALL call for ACTION! I too pursue knowledge, understanding, and opportunity to act on those but also know that we all "fall short" and grow by God's mercy and ministry. But then there are those who preach those beliefs and acts "required" for God's mercy in our mortal survival. Of all the good news in TUB, is not the most precious our release from such human requirements and misinterpretations of the Divine nature and ascendency?

I'm also a big fan of "The Mind at Mischief" - what a title!! Self delusion is a human art form, even greater than the art of chicanery and knowing, fraudulent manipulation of others' delusions. For a huckster requires the self delusion of other minds for their influence and power to manifest. It's a power trip on one side and a tasty placebo for the other. Especially channeling "the other side" - takes no effort at all to "know" the "truth" provided by others....it's a lazy seekers' parlor game. And yet, despite all the incorrectness of all the beliefs and belief systems, God's mercy prevails and gives all mortals at least the glimpse of greater reality and truth at our awakening. I can imagine that upon that moment of mercy ministry that many falsehoods simply evaporate and significant wide-eyed realignments immediately occur, giving many or most clueless survivors a chance to ascend through the progressive adventure; certainly some will be more progressed and growth will not be uniform BUT the point of THIS thread is false beliefs do NOT prevent that mercy the Father gives to all for we are all precious in His sight....as incomplete or malformed as we may be here or on arrival with the hosts of survivors. But as you say, survival is but the first step in progressive ascendency. It's a grand adventure and glorious future we live in....NOW.


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Boomshuka/FanoVan,

Great inputs. Thanks.

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