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Can science lead us to Spirituality?
Yes 86%  86%  [ 31 ]
No 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 36
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fatboy2,

A physics textbook does not claim to be an epochal revelation and the concepts presented therein can be demonstrated in a laboratory. I do not go to a book to learn physics, I go to college.

Mr. Shakita,

your post demonstrates what I mean when I say:

Using concepts from the Urantia Book

To prove the authenticity of the Urantia Book

Which reinforces the religion about the Urantia Book

Is what I define as worshipping the Urantia Book.

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Rhermen,

Let me add this.

I look upon the UB in a similar way Christians look
upon the Holy Bible. It is a beautiful presentation of God
and His Universe.

The UB gives a complete cosmology. A good presentation of
Jesus. Ethical teachings as ordained by God Himself.

A major similarity between the Bible and the UB is the injunction to:
Love God
Love your fellow man as yourself.

Beyond that, the UB declares the importance of:
World government
Equality of Man and Woman
The need for an international language.

The UB gives a peek into the Universe's Physical and Spiritual
reality.

p.s. #1 I cannot compete with Mr Shakita's eloquence !

p.s. #2 my beliefs are not conditional upon your
beliefs or non-beliefs......... Is entirely personal


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Yep, we all have our own opinions and personal beliefs. The problem usually begins, however, when we go sharing them with others. Of course, if no one wanted to share his or her opinions and beliefs, there would be little need for discussion forums such as this. None of you need my approval or endorsement to believe as you choose. The reverse of this concept is also true.

But I think the point that many of you are attempting to tell me, is that you love the Urantia Book despite its imperfections. Many of you perhaps love the Bible, despite its imperfections for the same reasons, reasons FB2 and Mr. Shakita have given. (Of course it would seem that many believe that these books have no imperfections at all.)

If this is true, then you are right: I don't get it. Because I fail to understand, either by faith or logic, how people can love an inanimate object which has no personality.

I value my college textbooks to be sure, more specifically I value the knowledge and information they contain, but I do not love the book itself. I value my college experience but I do not love the college itself. I value my bike but I do not love it. I value the apartment where I live but I do not love it.

Sure, this list could go on and on, but the point I'm trying to make is that I believe loving physical objects can actually impede our spiritual progress. If you love a physical object so much you cannot let it go, how will you be able to find out just what really happens when your time in the likeness of mortal flesh is done?

If it is true that "You are destined to live a narrow and mean life if you learn to love only those who love you. Human love may indeed be reciprocal, but divine love is outgoing in all its satisfaction-seeking"; then we're talking about an exchange of love-energy between people who expect to get something in return for that love, this is the meaning of reciprocal, is it not?


If it is true that "The less of love in any creature's nature, the greater the love need, and the more does divine love seek to satisfy such need. Love is never self-seeking, and it cannot be self-bestowed. Divine love cannot be self-contained; it must be unselfishly bestowed"; then those who teach what you believe to be error are a reflection of your own selfish love because they do not reciprocate your personal beliefs. It also appears to be an opportunity to love without getting something in return. Such an experience would seem to enhance spiritual growth because by definition this is divine love.

Loving an inanimate object does not appear to fall in either of these catagories, and therefore, such love is wasted in my opinion because inanimate object cannot experience either human or divine love.

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Last edited by rhermen on Wed Aug 01, 2007 9:30 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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It's true Herman,

you don't get it.

You can't get it.

The simple reason you can't get is that a pint can't hold a quart.

Spiritually, your deck doesn't hold 52 cards; your spiritual vison is myopic. You need glasses.

You are correct that you can't love an inanimate object; but your experience of love is inadaquate to differentiate between logic, faith and love when you attempt to use logic and faith to understand love.

You may desire to swim in the deep waters, but desire and ability are two different things.


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I am humbled and grateful for the UB

I love the God who sent it, the host of service minded beings who constructed it and most of all, I love the indwelling spirit who reveled to me that it contained truth.



"But who say you that I am?" There was a moment of tense silence. The twelve never took their eyes off the Master, and then Simon Peter, springing to his feet, exclaimed: "You are the Deliverer, the Son of the living God." And the eleven sitting apostles arose to their feet with one accord, thereby indicating that Peter had spoken for all of them.

When Jesus had beckoned them again to be seated, and while still standing before them, he said: "This has been revealed to you by my Father. The hour has come when you should know the truth about me. But for the time being I charge you that you tell this to no man. Let us go hence."



Colter


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......

"To love or not to love an inanimate object."

That is the question.

....................

Mary LOVES her diamond ring. Loves it. Adores it.

Johnny loves his Joe Montana-autographed football. Loves it.
NO! Don't touch it! Back off. Or Johhny will smack you upside the
head! Especially Rhermen !

Ms. Bloomington loves her haute couture. She paid $50,000 for that
blue dress. She loves it more than her husband!

Marty loves his Mercedes. He won't let me near it! You say "drive it!"
No way.

Carlos LOVES menudo. His inanimate Mexican stew. He loves it.

Bad as it sounds but Jack Smithers KILLED !
a man to get a small bag
of diamonds. The value? About $250,000. Yes, it is horrible.......
The cops will get him............

As for me, I love the UB. I accept that the Urantia Book is
possibly imperfect - but it contains vast amounts of knowledge
I have found nowhere else. I also love my Baha'i prayer book.

Lastly, I LOVE "The Twilight Zone." God Bless the soul of
Rod Serling. What a creative soul. O:)


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"Love God, Love your nieghbor Love yourselves"

"Be perfect like God is perfect."

Nowhere in The Urantia Book does it state it should be loved or treated like a holy book. There is no doubt in true believers of the Paradise ascension that TUB may be the Fifth epochal revelation and Jesus may be the fourth, so in that same light one can have eternal life by simply having that knowledge.

Knowledge is power, and the knowledge of God gained from TUB is of immense value. Having the knowledge of the sleepers identity or the science involved in producing the papers only adds to that knowledge along with everything else scientific.


[url=http://urantiabook.org/archive/science/ginsss2.htm]Scientific Predictions of The Urantia Book
by Irwin Ginsburgh, Ph.D., and Geoffrey L. Taylor
[/url]

The Urantia Book contains much scientific information that was revealed between 1925 and 1935 to an individual who cared little about the material. Some of this information disagreed with science's version. Half a century later, some of this originally conflicting information now agrees with science, and some still does not. The information deals primarily with creation of the universe, the Earth and man, as well as the fundamentals of matter and energy. Theories about these kinds of subjects evolve as science matures, and some of science's ideas change. These changes have brought about the new agreement between science and The Urantia Book, and the now agreeing Urantia information can be considered to have been predictions.



Peace.

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I LOVE the Truth, Beauty, and Goodness that I have discovered in TUB.

All the best, Ray


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Mr. Shakita,

I agree with you when you say: "...I will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I no longer believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but I do believe that there are many fine principles and examples that we can imitate. I feel that the Bible, despite all of its faults, can still be a force for good in the lives of many. So similarly, I realize that there are some problems with the UB because of William Sadler. But when I examine the contents as a whole, I can't reject the whole because of the errors in some parts of the book."

In our world no source of information is either 100% Truth or 100% Error. To reject any source of information as total error is to throw out the baby with the bathwater. But to believe that any source of information is total truth is naive. Like you I do not reject the UB because I have found error. Like you, FB2, and many other members of this forum I have found concepts contained in TUB which I value. But just because I have found some truth, meaning, and value in the Urantia Papers does not prove (to me) that the source of TUB is divine.

Similarly, I find your use of the word "imitate" to be interesting. Imitation does not necessarily imply understanding. Many animals can be taught or trained to imitate the behavior of their trainer. Said animals are under the control of their trainer. The trainer often uses some type of reward as incentive for the animals to imitate a given behavior. So long as the animals receive the reward (usually some kind of tasty treat) the animal will do its best to imitate the behavior. If there is an emotional connection between the trainer and the animal, the animal is much more likely to imitate the desired behavior. But animals rarely understand why they are being trained or the behavior they imitate. Having worked with animals (especially parrots) when I was younger, I speak from first hand experience. In my opinion, animals do not question the motives of their trainer.

I do not think of myself as an animal, therefore, no promise of a future reward will cause me to imitate any behavior or cause me to submit to the overcontrol of a trainer, unless I understand the motives of my trainer. Especially if my trainer possesses tools which encourage an artificial sense of emotional connection designed to facillitate his/her overcontrol. Therefore, in my opinion, it is part of the evolution of consciousness to question the motives of our trainers. If we don't, then we will always be animals.

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Can animals have faith or imaginations?

It would be a leap of faith to think animals possess personality :smile: .




Peace.

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LOVE IS = Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.

1 Corinthians 13:3-5 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
Copyright © 1954, 1958, 1962, 1964, 1965, 1987 by The Lockman Foundation


3Even if I dole out all that I have [to the poor in providing] food, and if I surrender my body to be burned or [a] in order that I may glory, but have not love (God's love in me), I gain nothing.

4Love endures long and is patient and kind; love never is envious nor boils over with jealousy, is not boastful or vainglorious, does not display itself haughtily.

5It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].



7. DIVINE TRUTH AND BEAUTY

p42:2 2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.
p42:3 2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe.
Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends.


That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

p42:4 2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience. While the laws and decrees, the thoughts and attitudes, of the First Great Source and Center are eternally, infinitely, and universally true; at the same time, their application to, and adjustment for, every universe, system, world, and created intelligence, are in accordance with the plans and technique of the Creator Sons as they function in their respective universes, as well as in harmony with the local plans and procedures of the Infinite Spirit and of all other associated celestial personalities.

p42:5 2:7.4 The false science of materialism would sentence mortal man to become an outcast in the universe. Such partial knowledge is potentially evil; it is knowledge composed of both good and evil. Truth is beautiful because it is both replete and symmetrical. When man searches for truth, he pursues the divinely real.
p42:6 2:7.5 Philosophers commit their gravest error when they are misled into the fallacy of abstraction, the practice of focusing the attention upon one aspect of reality and then of pronouncing such an isolated aspect to be the whole truth. The wise philosopher will always look for the creative design which is behind, and pre-existent to, all universe phenomena. The creator thought invariably precedes creative action.

p42:7 2:7.6 Intellectual self-consciousness can discover the beauty of truth, its spiritual quality, not only by the philosophic consistency of its concepts, but more certainly and surely by the unerring response of the {ever-present Spirit of Truth.}
Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.

p42:8 2:7.7 The eternal quest is for unification, for divine coherence. The far-flung physical universe coheres in the Isle of Paradise; the intellectual universe coheres in the God of mind, the Conjoint Actor; the spiritual universe is coherent in the personality of the Eternal Son. But the isolated mortal of time and space coheres in God the Father through the direct relationship between the indwelling Thought Adjuster and the Universal Father.

Man's Adjuster is a fragment of God and everlastingly seeks for divine unification; it coheres with, and in, the Paradise Deity of the First Source and Center.

p43:1 2:7.8 The discernment of supreme beauty is the discovery and integration of reality:
{The discernment of the divine goodness in the eternal truth, that is ultimate beauty. }
Even the charm of human art consists in the harmony of its unity.

p43:2 2:7.9 The great mistake of the Hebrew religion was its failure to associate the goodness of God with the factual truths of science and the appealing beauty of art. As civilization progressed, and since religion continued to pursue the same unwise course of overemphasizing the goodness of God to the relative exclusion of truth and neglect of beauty, there developed an increasing tendency for certain types of men to turn away from the abstract and dissociated concept of isolated goodness. The overstressed and isolated morality of modern religion, which fails to hold the devotion and loyalty of many twentieth-century men, would rehabilitate itself if, in addition to its moral mandates, it would give equal consideration to the truths of science, philosophy, and spiritual experience, and to the beauties of the physical creation, the charm of intellectual art, and the grandeur of genuine character achievement.

p43:3 2:7.10
The religious challenge of this age is to those farseeing and forward-looking men and women of spiritual insight who will dare to construct a new and appealing philosophy of living out of the enlarged and exquisitely integrated modern concepts of cosmic truth, universe beauty, and divine goodness.

Such a new and righteous vision of morality will attract all that is good in the mind of man and challenge that which is best in the human soul. Truth, beauty, and goodness are divine realities, and as man ascends the scale of spiritual living, these supreme qualities of the Eternal become increasingly co-ordinated and unified in God, who is love.

p43:4 2:7.11 All truth—material, philosophic, or spiritual—is both beautiful and good. All real beauty—material art or spiritual symmetry—is both true and good. All genuine goodness—whether personal morality, social equity, or divine ministry—is equally true and beautiful. Health, sanity, and happiness are integrations of truth, beauty, and goodness as they are blended in human experience.

Such levels of efficient living come about through the unification of energy systems, idea systems, and spirit systems.

p43:5 2:7.12 Truth is coherent, beauty attractive, goodness stabilizing. And when these values of that which is real are co-ordinated in personality experience, the result is a high order of love conditioned by wisdom and qualified by loyalty.

The real purpose of all ~ UNIVERSE EDUCATION = IS to effect the better co-ordination of the isolated child of the worlds with the larger realities of his expanding experience.

Reality is finite on the human level, infinite and eternal on the higher and divine levels.

p43:6 2:7.13 [Presented by a Divine Counselor acting by authority of the Ancients of Days on Uversa.]

A LOVE Child Coop :mrgreen:


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Quote:
5It is not conceited (arrogant and inflated with pride); it is not rude (unmannerly) and does not act unbecomingly. Love (God's love in us) does not insist on its own rights or its own way, for it is not self-seeking; it is not touchy or fretful or resentful; it takes no account of the evil done to it [it pays no attention to a suffered wrong].



"God is love, love is not God"

And a love child- child of love by any other name is not an animal :wink: .

BTW God doesn't insist on Rights of God for to do so would be subjecting God to the laws of man.



Peace.

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Howdy my friends! I’m back from El Salvador. It turned out good. I’m alive and healthier and uplifted by the recognition of the Spirit of God in the world by so many…even without TUB. I’ve found several people I think will enjoy certain parts of TUB.

But it was so neat to witness the Spirit of God and Truth living in the hearts, minds and spirits of even those living in the remote hilly regions Also seeing it in those in the capital. Seeing how such fruits could be born by the righteous refusal of people to deny the reality of the Spirit and teachings of God even under such tremendous pressure of torture, persecution, murder and death. Those who refused to deny help to their fellow persecuted human beings and were killed for doing so are righteously remembered as martyrs. I will share more on this on another thread.

I’m glad to see so much activity on this thread. I think I’d like to get back to the Science discussed in TUB in more detail. We’ve had some excellent discussions with more science details being discussed, I look forward to it here.

The following link that Coyote mentions is written by a couple of scientists, on eof whom I recently met on Froggy’s AOL forum and the other, Irwin Ginsburgh PhD, who has since passed away. I also read both their interesting story’s in the “How I found the Urantia Book” book, by Saskia Praamsma.

Quote:
Coyote
Scientific Predictions of The Urantia Book
by Irwin Ginsburgh, Ph.D., and Geoffrey L. Taylor

I also enjoyed the many positive ways that you, my friends, used in presenting or defending your positions and/or beliefs. Here'’ a few quotes
I really enjoyed:
Quote:
I LOVE the Truth, Beauty, and Goodness that I have discovered in TUB.

All the best, Ray


Quote:
Colter
I am humbled and grateful for the UB

I love the God who sent it, the host of service minded beings who constructed it and most of all, I love the indwelling spirit who reveled to me that it contained truth.

Quote:
bluster2000

I beg to differ:

"I am the bread of life."
"I am the desire of all ages."
"I am the door to eternal life."
"I am the good shepherd."
"I am the light of the world."
"I am the living water."
"I am the living way."
"I am the real vine."
"I am the resurrection and the life."
"I am the way, the truth, and the life."
"I am with you always."
"I came not to judge the world, but to offer salvation."
"I have come that you may have life."

Quote:
urantiavista

My consideration was in support of a more positive view of such things in general.
God's Love upon us,
Michael Melody

Quote:
fatboy2

Issac Newton said (in the early 1700's)


Sir Issac Newton besides discovering Calculus, discovered Basic Chemistry data in secret to avoid persecution from the science community of that time. In addition like so many other great scientists he worked his whole life (he was also an ordained minister and religious institutionally trained) trying to find the unity between all this he discovered and GOD. he continuously tried to find the connection between God and Science.

Quote:
The scientist in me believes there is always an explanation. Mystery equals superstition.

Randy


Actually I think of mystery as the lack of being scientifically understood rather than superstition. Superstition seems to prefer to leave the mystery scientifically unprobed and shrouded in un-understandable phenomenon.

It seems to me that Superstition is the giving up on the discovery of possible understandings of a mystery.

Quote:
I'm not defending rherman so much as his right to speak/question
Peace
Jo


God Bless You Jo.

Quote:
Mr. Shakita

I have great respect for the Urantia book. The more that I read and learn from it the more I understand fundamental mysteries that men have been grappling with for centuries. I feel closer to the Father and to the celestial realm than I have ever felt. I don't feel that that is a coincidence or merely a personal experience.

That being said, I certainly don't worship a book. … I feel that the UB works in conjunction with Christ Michael's Spirit of Truth to reveal to our mortal minds what is truth.

I feel that the UB is a text book that can help us on our journey to the Father. Do I believe that that is the only way to the Father? Of course not.

I think that the written word and personal experience is important in our attempts to have a close relationship with the Father. Each medium is important for our spiritual development. The UB has not replaced my personal relationship with the Father. It is just a book that has been made available at this point in my spiritual development.


Mr Shakita so often expresses things in a way that seems to say what I would like to say about my personal experience with the book.

Quote:
fatboy2
A major similarity between the Bible and the UB is the injunction to:
Love God
Love your fellow man as yourself.

Beyond that, the UB declares the importance of:
World government
Equality of Man and Woman
The need for an international language.

The UB gives a peek into the Universe's Physical and Spiritual
reality.

p.s. #1 I cannot compete with Mr Shakita's eloquence !


The eloquence of the succintness and "get right to the point" meaning in your statements doen't escape me either, FB2.

Quote:
Randy
Like you I do not reject the UB because I have found error. Like you, FB2, and many other members of this forum I have found concepts contained in TUB which I value. But just because I have found some truth, meaning, and value in the Urantia Papers does not prove (to me) that the source of TUB is divine.


Randy, your skeptism is grand and as necessary as Doubting Thomas' demand to see and examine the Master's Wound. Your Spiritual Birth Certificate must come from Missouri. (The "Show me" State)

God Bless You Randy! Your questioing of the divinty of the papers is an excellent segue into another enlightening Faith Son Coop Post:

Quote:
Coop
Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.

7. DIVINE TRUTH AND BEAUTY

p42:2 2:7.1 All finite knowledge and creature understanding are relative. Information and intelligence, gleaned from even high sources, is only relatively complete, locally accurate, and personally true.

p42:3 2:7.2 Physical facts are fairly uniform, but truth is a living and flexible factor in the philosophy of the universe.
Evolving personalities are only partially wise and relatively true in their communications. They can be certain only as far as their personal experience extends.

That which apparently may be wholly true in one place may be only relatively true in another segment of creation.

p42:4 2:7.3 Divine truth, final truth, is uniform and universal, but the story of things spiritual, as it is told by numerous individuals hailing from various spheres, may sometimes vary in details owing to this relativity in the completeness of knowledge and in the repleteness of personal experience as well as in the length and extent of that experience…

p42:5 2:7.4 The false science of materialism would sentence mortal man to become an outcast in the universe. Such partial knowledge is potentially evil; it is knowledge composed of both good and evil. Truth is beautiful because it is both replete and symmetrical. When man searches for truth, he pursues the divinely real.

p42:6 2:7.5 Philosophers commit their gravest error when they are misled into the fallacy of abstraction, the practice of focusing the attention upon one aspect of reality and then of pronouncing such an isolated aspect to be the whole truth. The wise philosopher will always look for the creative design which is behind, and pre-existent to, all universe phenomena. The creator thought invariably precedes creative action.

p42:7 2:7.6 Intellectual self-consciousness can discover the beauty of truth, its spiritual quality, not only by the philosophic consistency of its concepts, but more certainly and surely by the unerring response of the {ever-present Spirit of Truth.}
Happiness ensues from the recognition of truth because it can be acted out; it can be lived. Disappointment and sorrow attend upon error because, not being a reality, it cannot be realized in experience. Divine truth is best known by its spiritual flavor.

p43:2 2:7.9 The great mistake of the Hebrew religion was its failure to associate the goodness of God with the factual truths of science and the appealing beauty of art.


It's good to be back. Thank You all for your LOVE! :-)

God is Love! And Science is the probe of Discovery in helping us to understand the unknown Infinite Manifestations of Love's mysteries.
Bon Voyage! :-)

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Joe - The more we discover how much we are Loved by God, the more we want to do God's Will.


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Welcome back, JoeR!

You were conspicuous by your absence. :smile:

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God is Love! And Science is the probe of Discovery in helping us to understand the unknown Infinite Manifestations of Love's mysteries.
Bon Voyage!


The image of a probing scientist come to mind :smile: . Very good JoeR.

Glad to see you are still in one piece....Good to have you back.



Peace.

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