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Can science lead us to Spirituality?
Yes 86%  86%  [ 31 ]
No 14%  14%  [ 5 ]
Total votes : 36
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Randy,

Though I took a course titled “Logic” some 37 years ago, I confess ignorance of the term “Pro Hoc Ad Hoc” and should reacquaint myself when time permits.

Anyhow, my intent wasn't to offer specific or definitive justification(s) per se of the “secret” circumstances involved in the question of the FER's origins. My consideration was in support of a more positive view of such things in general.

There's a quote from one of our Melchizedek companions that I've long felt applies to a range of revelatory quandaries - cosmological/scientific and others of perhaps greater import:
Quote:
4. THE LIMITATIONS OF REVELATION
...The laws of revelation hamper us greatly by their proscription of the impartation of unearned or premature knowledge.

For example, after our Lord's experiences at Mt.Hermon and the baptism in the Jordan, he was totally aware of his pre-existent divine nature. Why then, other than for pragmatic reasons, did he choose - at first, the limited title of Son of Man in his public work? Jesus did not speak the (secret?mysterious?) truth of his combined nature as God and man until after Peter's confession.
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He then said, “This has been revealed to you by my Father. The hour has come when you should know the truth about me...” and “...you could not entertain this belief as a result of mere human knowledge. This is a revelation of the spirit of my Father to your inmost souls. And when, therefore, you make this confession by the insight of the spirit of my Father which dwells within you, I am led to declare that upon this foundation will I build the brotherhood of the kingdom of heaven.”

Quote:
For three years Jesus had been proclaiming that he was the "Son of Man," ... He now disclosed that he was the Son of God, and upon the concept of the combined nature of the Son of Man and the Son of God, he determined to build the kingdom of heaven.

“...it has been revealed to you; wherefore do I speak boldly to you concerning these mysteries.”

Quote:
The fourth and last period of his earth career began here at Caesarea-Philippi and extended on to the crucifixion. This stage of his ministry was characterized by his acknowledgment of divinity...

Because of the apostles' still weak grasp of Jesus' divinity only three were permitted even a limited audience to the events transpiring at the soon following transfiguration. Their recorded reaction may be another witness to the wisdom of witholding unearned knowledge and experience.

God's Love upon us,
Michael Melody

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My appologies Urantiavista. It should read "post hoc ad hoc." I have edited my post to read correctly.

Jesus, it seems, did not claim himself to be any type of epochal revelation. Neither did he go about proclaiming to be the Son of God, a divine being. Such claims were made by others about him.

Peter proclaims Jesus to be the Son of God, uses the resurrection as proof of Jesus' divinity, and a religion about Jesus was born.

A book proclaims Jesus to be the forth epochal revelation and uses the life and teachings of Jesus of Nazareth as proof of the incarnation of Christ Michael a divine being of Creator Son status. This book uses this proclaimation to substatiate its own claim of being the next epochal revelation. A religion about the Urantia Book is born.

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rhermen wrote:
Jesus, it seems, did not claim himself to be any type of epochal revelation. Neither did he go about proclaiming to be the Son of God, a divine being. Such claims were made by others about him.


I beg to differ:

"I am the bread of life."
"I am the desire of all ages."
"I am the door to eternal life."
"I am the good shepherd."
"I am the light of the world."
"I am the living water."
"I am the living way."
"I am the real vine."
"I am the resurrection and the life."
"I am the way, the truth, and the life."
"I am with you always."
"I came not to judge the world, but to offer salvation."
"I have come that you may have life."


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All good quotes bluster and all are open to interpretation. Quotes wchich reinforce a religion about Jesus. Was Jesus quoted as saying "I am the Son of God" , "I am Christ Michael" , or "I am the fourth epochal revelation" ? Or are these things what others claim about him after the (not-quite historical) fact of his life? How many different faith movements use "Jesus" (and the things he is quoted as saying) as the basis of their faith? Such slogans have the ring of an advertizing campaign.

Quote:
PART IV - THE LIFE AND TEACHINGS OF JESUS
This group of papers was sponsored by a commission of twelve Urantia midwayers acting under the supervision of a Melchizedek revelatory director. The basis of this narrative was supplied by a secondary midwayer who was onetime assigned to the superhuman watchcare of the Apostle Andrew.


A quote which reinforces a religion about the Urantia Book. Can science lead to spirituality? Or can science be used to custom make a religion based upon the teachings of a religious icon? Faith and logic: are these mutually exclusive patterns of thought? Or is there room for both in the human experience? Why must FAITH be based upon the teachings of a sacred book; a book which usually claims to be of supernatural origin?

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Last edited by rhermen on Wed Jul 25, 2007 8:16 am +0000, edited 1 time in total.

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Good questions, Rhermen.

Faith...Logic....??

The UB points out there was a time when whole communities of
people worshipped God - by using their best thinking (in the absence
of a Divine Teacher and/or a Holy Book) and began to "see God"
in Nature.

The people worshipped a mountain top. Or a stone. Or the sun or
a river or _____. On and on.

God Himself, knowing that well-meaning people end up in 'blind
canyons' of worship, sent His Messengers to bring real and valid Revelations.

Holy Books tell the tale. In the absence of these books, men
eventually throw in their opinions - and fill the religious tradition
with falsehoods.

The UB affirms Logic AND Faith. It presents Reality
as a story of God, Creationism, Evolution, and man.

There is a possibility we UB students can become a little "off the rails"
when human imbalance enters into our discussion of Reality, Cosmology,
Philosophy. If and when this happens, this is not an indictment of the
Urantia Book - but rather an expose' of our human failings.

Like many UB students, I am infinitely thankful for the Book. Study of
this Book will not create perfect individuals, but I believe study brings illumination on the great subjects of Reality.


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Forum,

I like the point the UB makes about the irony that occurs when the scientific mind defaults to the safety of the mathematical cosmos....which is in reality the impersonal manifestation of God the Father. It's like finding a safe place to rest for the night........on the body of a gigantic creature. :shock:



Colter


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Quote:
Holy Books tell the tale. In the absence of these books, men
eventually throw in their opinions - and fill the religious tradition
with falsehoods.


Holy Books have taken the place of "a mountain top. Or a stone. Or the sun or a river or _____" and people end up worshipping the book as a holy object instead of these other things.

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rherman

I have never met a Urantia student or "believer" who worshipped the book. I have met many who rely on it for truth in many matters and quite a few who rely on it as the best representation of spiritual as well as material truth available on the planet today.

It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about instead of spouting inanities; platitudes; cliche's and intellectual assumptions.

It is quite easy for many here to see that you just don't get it; we were all there once. Please don't try to drag us all back there where you wallow simply because you are not yet able to believe truth or recognize it when you see it.


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Say what?

Majeston:
Quote:
I have never met a Urantia student or "believer" who worshipped the book.


You must not be paying attention.

Quote:
It would be nice if you knew what you were talking about instead of spouting inanities; platitudes; cliche's and intellectual assumptions.


Are you looking in the mirror w/that response?

Quote:
It is quite easy for many here to see that you just don't get it; we were all there once. Please don't try to drag us all back there where you wallow simply because you are not yet able to believe truth or recognize it when you see it.


Are you making assumptions for the rest of us? And it sure doesn't appear to be rherman that is wallowing.


To question something, from a different perception, isn't an attack. A scientific mind, an open and searching mind/spirit will, out of necessity, question. I think that may be part of (gasp) evolution?

We're all hard-wired differently. You see his question as dragging us back...I see his question as moving forward. I may not be able to follow rherman's thinking b/c it's more detailed than my little brain. But my little brain tells me that I'm not the only one on this forum...and neither are you.


I'm not defending rherman so much as his right to speak/question, w/o some twit of a response that is a waste of space...but then space is irrelevant so...........
my response is quite irrelevant also.........



rherman said:


Quote:
Holy Books have taken the place of "a mountain top. Or a stone. Or the sun or a river or _____" and people end up worshipping the book as a holy object instead of these other things.


I believe majeston, that you just proved his point.

Peace
Jo


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Jo and Randy,

Just how does one go about worshiping a book? The persons I see accused of doing so seem the least likely candidates for such a foolish practice. Seems like a cheap shot to me.

Bill,
Faith son

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-tao

chanting is no more holy than listing to the murmur of a stream,
counting prayer beads no more sacred than simply breathing,
religious robes no more spiritual than work clothes.

lao tzu,

according to the shih chia (the historical records),
lao tzu was was a native of of chu (in present honan),
and a custodian of documents whom confucius went to consult
on rituals.

the tao te ching contains his teachings.

the way begets one;

one begets two;

two begets three;

three begets the myriad creatures.
...........


the way that can be spoken of
is not the constant way;
the name that can be named
is not the constant name.
the nameless was the beginning of heaven and earth;
the named was the mother of the myriad creatures.

hence always rid yourself of desires in order to observe
its * secrets;

but allways allow yourself to have desires in order to
observe its manifestations.

these two are the same
but diverge in name as they issue forth,
being the same they are called mysteries,

mystery upon mystery -

the gateway of the manifold secrets.


* in translating from the chinese, ' it' used in this way sometimes
refers to 'the way' and' they' to the 'myriad creatures'.
............

I alone am muddled.
calm like the sea;
like a high wind that never ceases. *
the multitude all have a purpose.
i alone am foolish and uncouth.
i alone am different from others
and value being fed by the mother.

* this line is meant to be a description of the sage,
refered to in the first person .


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I have great respect for the Urantia book. The more that I read and learn from it the more I understand fundamental mysteries that men have been grappling with for centuries. I feel closer to the Father and to the celestial realm than I have ever felt. I don't feel that that is a coincidence or merely a personal experience.

That being said, I certainly don't worship a book. I look upon the UB as a text book that has taught me many things that I could not have known until I went on to the mansion worlds. I feel that the UB works in conjunction with Christ Michael's Spirit of Truth to reveal to our mortal minds what is truth. The UB is the fifth epochal revelation. Which means that there will be more revelations to come as mankind progresses forward in their spiritual evolution. A book can only approximate reality. It is not intended to replace that reality and become the thing worshiped or adored. I go to many sources in my search for truth. The UB is not exclusive to truth.

Mr. Shakita


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Mr. Shakita, with all due respect to you, as someone whose opinions I find to be quite valuable...

I agree when you state "I go to many sources in my search for truth. The UB is not exclusive to truth."

But when you state: "I have great respect for the Urantia book. The more that I read and learn from it the more I understand fundamental mysteries that men have been grappling with for centuries. I feel closer to the Father and to the celestial realm than I have ever felt. I don't feel that that is a coincidence or merely a personal experience."

You go to a holy book (it would seem) for the same reasons people used to go to (or worship) a sacred mountain, river, building, stone, or sun. In each case these are things & places outside of one's self. People went to these sacred or holy places to feel closer to the Father and celestial realm, did they not?

Quick definitions (holy)

noun: a sacred place of pilgrimage
adjective: belonging to or derived from or associated with a divine power

Quick definitions (sacred)

adjective: concerned with religion or religious purposes
adjective: worthy of respect or dedication

Quick definitions (worship)

noun: the activity of worshipping
noun: a feeling of profound love and admiration
verb: attend religious services
verb: show devotion to
verb: love unquestioningly and uncritically or to excess; venerate as an idol

Using concepts from the Urantia Book

To prove the authenticity of the Urantia Book

Which reinforces the religion about the Urantia Book

Is what I define as worshipping the Urantia Book.


I find no need to venerate the Urantia Book as proof of my personal relationship with the Father. The Father is a person, TUB is a book. Questioning and using critical logical analysis about the contents of a book isn't the same as questioning or being critical of a person.

Therefore, in my opinion, having Faith in GOD is not the same as having faith in a book. The Creator of All Things transcends logic because said Creator is beyond the material realm.

A book, mountain, river, building, stone, star, or any other physical object is subject to logical scrutiny because it is a physical object. To assign divine qualities to a physical object is to create an object of religious veneration or idol. Another golden calf. This to me is the definition of materialism. I think we have enough of that don't you?

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Rhermen,

I think you are missing a simple point about books in general.

You are studying physics? A physics book?
Why??

The physics book has vast knowledge you with your feelings,
thinking, intuition and personal knowledge
do not.

Your love of logic should make this clear to you............

p.s y ou go to a book to LEARN physics......... not to a mountain
or stone or river or _____


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Hi Randy,

I feel that the UB is a text book that can help us on our journey to the Father. Do I believe that that is the only way to the Father? Of course not. There may be persons that have found the Father through the Koran or the Bible or some other book which persons consider their holy book. There are those that have found the Father without reading any so-called holy book. I don't consider the UB holy, but I do believe that celestial beings had an input in the book's contents. That being said, I also am aware of certain technical papers in the UB that were based on an article from 1942 by a scientist named Stetson. After seeing the comparisons, line for line, I had to conclude that William Sadler had used that article to include further technical details. He may have thought that there was something missing, so he decided to add this material without giving proper credit to its author. I certainly object to that. But I will not throw out the baby with the bathwater. I no longer believe that the Bible is the inspired word of God, but I do believe that there are many fine principles and examples that we can imitate. I feel that the Bible, despite all of its faults, can still be a force for good in the lives of many. So similarly, I realize that there are some problems with the UB because of William Sadler. But when I examine the contents as a whole, I can't reject the whole because of the errors in some parts of the book.


There are many concepts that I would not have been aware of, if it were not for the UB. I had never heard of midwayers before and what their purpose was on this planet. I had never heard of though adjusters before. The concept that a fragment of the Father dwells in our minds was a concept that I never would have embraced if I had never read the UB. My staunch belief in the Bible precluded any belief that the Father dwells in our mortal minds. I would never have heard of the mansion worlds. Knowing about these worlds has given me hope for the future. I know that I will never have to experience eternal death. I know that when I die I will go on to one of the mansion worlds. Now, could I have never heard of any of these facts and concepts and still have had a personal relationship with the Father? Of course. Our relationship with the Father is not predicated on our belief in or deep respect for a book that we consider holy or inspired.

So, why the book? I feel that the UB was written to help us make further spiritual progress. It gives us some more details about the inner workings of the celestial realm. It also gives us hope about the next life with some more details that can build us up when we have to mourn the loss of someone really close or when we are facing our own mortality. A mere book can never take the place of my personal relationship with the Father. But I can get details that would enhance my understanding of my Father. If our Father would directly communicate with his mortal children, there would be no need for any book to explain Him. But if any human being claims that he has heard God speak to him, they are either viewed as crazy or deluded. So, barring God's direct communication with us mortals, how are we to get the real picture? I have never heard God speak to me personally. So, how can I get to know someone that I can't communicate with? Maybe he doesn't communicate with me directly because he knows that such direct communications would either greatly disturb me or lead me to a path of delusions of grandeur. If I can learn about Him through the written word first, then I will be ready when he makes the effort to contact me personally, yet subtly.

So Randy, I think that the written word and personal experience is important in our attempts to have a close relationship with the Father. Each medium is important for our spiritual development. The UB has not replaced my personal relationship with the Father. It is just a book that has been made available at this point in my spiritual development. As I go on to the mansion worlds, there will no doubt be other sources that will lead me on to spiritual maturity and a closer relationship with the Father.

Mr. Shakita


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